I have Hashimoto’s and take 100mcg levo, been on this dose for 1yr. Also take LDN. Gluten free, dairy free, soy free though this one occasionally sneaks in. I take B12, B complex, D, K2-MK7, omega 3, magnesium, C, zinc, selenium and probiotic every day. And COQ10, collagen and DIM when I remember.
My FT3, FT4, B12 and D had all been improving, with B12 sometimes very high. Without changing doses of anything, I am back to where I was before taking any levo at all - low in range values of each. I do feel tired, emotional, and can’t get warm.
I take levo first thing, breakfast at least an hour later. B12, B-complex, K2-MK7 with lunch. C and zinc in afternoon. D and omega 3 with dinner. Magnesium and probiotic before bed.
My question is - is there something that would just stop vitamins being absorbed?
(Have an appointment to see about upping dose.)
Thanks, as always.
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Yppah
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Hi there. I have experienced similar, always low in iron, Vit D and B12. The Vit D I can boost if I take 5000mg daily for a couple of months, but the iron has to be IV infusion as nothing else shifts my levels. About to do some stool sample tests to cover things like Helicobacter as I've read that these can interfere with absorption while not necessarily showing up in any other ways, as can low levels of digestive enzymes. But have the same question as you so welcome any other insights on it and will update if these tests deliver any other insights.
Hi JAmanda, COQ10 is an enzyme that can kind of energise the mitochondria within cells and can make a difference to fatigue. "Mitochondria (sing. mitochondrion) are organelles, or parts of a eukaryote cell. They are in the cytoplasm, not the nucleus. They make most of the cell's supply of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), a molecule that cells use as a source of energy. ... They oxidise glucose to provide energy for the cell." google.com/search?q=mitocho...
I have an old virus called EBV that reactivates and causes fatigue. Seems sometimes to go hand in hand with Hashimoto’s. My endocrinologist prescribes LDN - there is an LDN trust, if you Google it you will see the massive list of things it’s thought it can help with. I think it helps me a little in the morning when I can feel like I am stuck to my bed otherwise. Still not full of energy or anything but makes a little difference. And he also suggested COQ10.
Thanks for this, I will have a good look through. I’ve never really had reflux problems, but I think my diet might be so boringly good that I “avoid” knowing about it. Eg I wouldn’t eat loads of potatoes as can make me burp. So maybe I’m just controlling it rather than dealing with it.
Thank you. I don’t eat any bananas, rarely peanuts (lots of other nuts over Christmas though!) and not much potato, but given that in the past I’ve avoided them completely I’ll just revert to that, thanks!
Yppah I wouldn't be saying not to eat potatoes, because they can actually be quite nutritious - good source of fibre and vit C - but they do hoover sup stomach acid, so if you are eating them bear that in mind and consider supplementing with betaine hcl so that your stomach has some acid to help you digest that meal. I've been using betaine hcl for a while now and worry that I am dependent on it.
Thanks, I just did a test with Betaine HCl with Pepsin - one tablet in protein rich dinner - don’t think I have low stomach acid as burping A LOT ( and unfortunately just about to run a wine tasting over Zoom 🤭)
Hi SlowDragon , I have done the Betaine HCl with pepsin test twice now and it suggests I don’t have low stomach acid. I don’t think I have problems digesting proteins from meat, poultry, fish, or eggs. I do, however, struggle with quinoa. And all stodgy carbohydrates except brown rice. Do you happen to know of any reason or have any links to resources on that?
Yes, strictly gluten and dairy free. Soy free as well but not as strict about this if struggling when eating out (which I haven’t done for a while). I’ve been fed gluten and dairy by mistake when eating out and I know about it within an hour - goopy throat, runny nose, bra feels really tight, headache, burp. (Digestive enzymes, loads of water, and skipping a couple of meals seems to do the job to sort it out.) This hasn’t happened for over a year though. Soy doesn’t cause this same reaction but I don’t eat it as I believe interferes with levo absorption (and I don’t like how it sneaks in to so many foods as a filler).
Hi Yppah, may I follow you please because like Testing852 I have similar problems? I can't get ferritin levels above bottom of range, it's been suggested it could be an absorption problem and I don't know what else to try.One idea I have for you is to watch, perhaps omit, the B12. I have been vegan for about 15 years, do not take B12 and my levels are fine but go over range when I supplement (hospital checked). According to 'The Vitamin Bible' if one of our B vitamins is over range that interferes with the other B vitamins and can therefore lead to deficiency symptoms even if you are taking the other B vitamins. Some of the Bs are expensive and many B complex supplements have plenty of the cheap ones but stint on the expensive Bs, so you also need to make sure your B complex is in balance.
Sorry you are having similar issues. I do take a lot of B12 actually, in the B-complex and separately, and via diet. I will take a look at the vitamin bible, thanks, and good luck. Interested to hear how you get on.
Interesting. First time I've heard of LDN in connection with thyroid. (My sister takes it for cancer.) Just looked it up -- in case anyone else is interested:
* This report indicates that levothyroxine doses didn't drop with increased prescriptions of LDN (no discussion of whether symptoms improved, unfortunately): bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentr...
* If you go to ldnresearchtrust.org and put 'hypothyroidism' in the search bar, you'll find more resources related to LDN and thyroid.
I take it more for post-viral fatigue caused by EBV. But also on list for Hashimoto’s. The two seem to have some sort of connection. It says you might need to drop levo dose as the LDN boosts things, but this definitely hasn’t happened to me. Unlucky!
Interesting. That report I linked to above says that, if anything, there was a bit of an increase in levo dose associated with LDN use. This is why they conclude that LDN is not helpful for thyroid. I'm slowly looking through the other resources to see what evidence there is in favor of LDN.
That is really interesting, thanks, I just went off something on the trust’s website without doing any further research. And my sister has non-autoimmune hypothyroid, started LDN and needed to drop levo dose. 🤷🏻♀️
It could be the quality o f the supplements, especially if those are in pills or capsules forms with a lot of "inactive" ingredients. It is good to research them before buying and using, some of them have nothing or very little to do with what is claimed on the box (research has been done on that). Liposomals are reputed to have better absorption, but again, there are liposomals and liposomals.... some are very good especially those in liquid form with no "additions" or as they call it "inactive ingredients".
I will look in more detail but I tend to buy Doctor’s Best, Now and Cytoplan. I might flip back to a spray for D & K2-MK7 (though capsules worked before) and see about B12 lozenges. Thank you.
re the stomach acid do you take betaine hcl with meals containing protein? if not then it doesn't matter the quality of your supps [altho I'd endorse good quality brands with few additives as possible] because there won't be enough stomach acid to digest the food, the protein and hence help you get the most out of the supps you take with a meal
I really feel a great difference with LDN. Before I took it my throat felt like a golf ball was stuck in it. I wasnt able to get any in summer as the shipping rules through Singapore changed and it was awful. Sometimes as soon as I took a particular food or drink it would react. It made me miserable without it. I got diagnosed with Esinophillic Oesophagitis auto immune and I’m betting others have this too. I get LDN from a UK compounding pharmacy now and wouldnt be without it x
Pleased to hear it really helps you! I had constant funny throat before ditching gluten and dairy but it’s rare for me now. I’ll message you re pharmacy - prob same one - I am happy with their service.
Are you taking these supplements under supervision? Are you regularly testing? Another factor to bear in mind is that taking one Vitamin/Supplement can cause imbalances in others if taking large isolated doses. For example, there is a relationship between Zinc, Copper and Selenium. Also Magnesium and Vitamin D.
DIM can affect oestrogen levels and pathways and this can affect the thyroid.
The scientific article below, in part authored by Dr Datis Kharrazian, outlines foods that have been shown to interact immunologically with thyroid hormones/ thyroid hormone production. Gelatin is assessed (a degraded form of collagen).
The amount consumed would be relevant, particularly in concentrated form (supplements, broth).
Kharrazian, D., Herbert, M., & Vojdani, A. (2017). Immunological Reactivity Using Monoclonal and Polyclonal Antibodies of Autoimmune Thyroid Target Sites with Dietary Proteins. Journal Of Thyroid Research, 2017, 1-13. doi.org/10.1155/2017/4354723
Just read foods article more fully, thank you, it’s really interesting. Buckwheat, potato, quinoa, corn and oats are things I have identified as making me feel overly full and sluggish, which are all on the list of reactive foods, and worse (if I am reading it right) on T3 than T4, and my conversion is very poor, wondering if linked. And orange juice is something I wouldn’t touch as I get an instantly “goopy” throat and hate the sugar taste anyway. I might just cut them out entirely, as they’re not things I actually like, they can just pop in my diet if eating out. But the squid and coffee makes me feel sad if true, I might reluctantly experiment.The hormone info and DUTCH testing also very useful thanks. I have always suspected estrogen dominance, additionally my mum died of very estrogen positive / receptive (might not be saying quite the right term) breast cancer. I had been feeling very in control of emotions until last 6 months, which for me is a good indicator of health alongside weight. My goal is to feel well enough to have another baby but I think wise to park that until things are under control. The DIM maybe not wise as I already eat a lot of kale, broccoli, green beans. I did do some hormone testing in Feb 2020 that I need to find, but was “fine” - will dig deeper.
I think I will (a) be stricter about my diet hunches backed up in article and be more aware of others on list and experiment; (b) get higher levo dose; (c) then get more testing. As the DUTCH is quite pricey I think I will try to balance things more before doing that test - is there one you would recommend in particular?
I think the takeaway from that article would be that those foods have shown to be a problem in their study or the studies they've cited. However, the amount you eat, whether it is cooked or raw also matters. I know some people that are having bone broth every day. Too much of a good thing comes to mind!
I've not done the DUTCH test yet. Depending on your symptoms there's lots of things you can do before running a DUTCH test. I'd also recommend listening to one of Dr Carrie Jones' podcasts to give you a better idea.
I feel exactly the same yppah. I religiously take all my vits and supplements, and am taking Liposomal Colostrum at the moment, but I can't say that anything makes me feel even slightly different. I have stopped taking them for a couple of weeks and feel exactly the same! The strange thing is, if I take a painkiller, that works so how come if I'm not absorbing stuff?I wonder if taking something like cider vinegar before the supplements might help them to be absorbed?
I am thinking that the painkiller method of absorption is different to nutritional absorption - both food and meds go into the stomach but the meds are designed to be taken directly into the bloodstream from the stomach and food/nutrition absorption process needs to happen via the rest of the gut [small and large intestine] hence absorbing meds might be ok but food/nutrition could be more problematic
Yeah it’s annoying, and expensive!!!! Sorry you are experiencing same. Have you seen slowdragon’s links? I am reading through them to see about addressing stomach acid, as likely an issue, but also hoping to get more levo to help with that.
Hi Yppah, I'm sorry you're going through this!! What you've said reminds me of an email / mailer I had from Isabella Wentz recently. I've never subscribed to her services but am interested in what she says. The mailer was about how she was doing great and everything balanced in her levels then suddenly she was thrown back into her old thyroid symptoms without changing anything else herself. Two things happened, 1) life became more stressful due to the pandemic. 2) her thyroid meds potency deteriorated drastically (there have been some meds withdrawn I think due to this, maybe just natural glandular, I'm not sure on the details, but do an internet search on your meds and check for any problems). Anyway, she switched her thyroid meds to one that is known to be stable right now, and she gave herself a boost of the vitamins that had lapsed in her system, she also had a flare up of a digestive disorder so started treating that too (perhaps triggered by causes 1 and 2?). She is feeling much better and got her levels back on track again.
Someone here mentioned the other day that when the thyroid isn't being treated correctly (e.g. levo too low, levels out of whack) this can cause low absorption of vitamins. So could it be a chain reaction from something amiss with your thyroid medication, that's caused your vitamin levels to go haywire? Is your meds in date? Not expired? That's not meant to be an issue, but worth checking they're in date in case that's a factor. UK versions of levothyroxine are not as stable as some brand names of levo, so even if you have the same dosage and same make regularly, there might have been a change in manufacturing that caused you to not react as well to it or maybe it's not as potent a batch? I'm talking tiny differences here, but it is known that the thyroid is super sensitive to slight alterations.
If meds aren't the issue, then simply chronic stress could be! And who knows it's been an incredibly stressful year for many. It could simply be that after a year of constant stress your thyroid may need a higher dose of levo. And on the right dose your vitamin levels may behave better?
I don't know, I'm not a doctor obviously, just piecing info together that I've learnt.
Thank you! I have her books and really rate all her suggestions. I read this email too and it reminded me that none of us can afford to drop the ball in trying to keep well.It’s same brand of levo, on date, no known issues. But I am now looking forward to a new box just in case!
For me lockdown etc has been less stressful than normal life. Previously I could find myself travelling at weekends and not feeling like I’d had much relax time. Also I found my office environment really unbearable - hot, noisy, cramped, poor light, people interrupting me all day (I struggle with concentration - have always been easily distracted, but thyroid issues take this to a whole new level!) and often worked from home to avoid this. Being home 100% is brilliant for me. Also not walking as much is good I think - endo has been telling me for a while to do no exercise. I do a short walk most days, sometimes a longer one to a max of 4miles. And eating well at home massively helps too.
So all these things ought to be helping...
Thyroid / vitamin checks hadn’t been done for a while so maybe missed a dose increase or two, hopefully will sort soon as have appointment in couple weeks.
Thanks for your reply, very helpful, hope you are doing well.
Of course. I’ve not to walk too far and pace myself as he believes I have post-viral fatigue from EBV. The way this was described to me was that if you feel washed out after exertion then prob not good for you. I ignored this assessment for a good while, and probably walked min 3miles a day, but when I did start listening I started feeling better. He actually told me to take 8weeks off work to fully rest but I have never done that. I probably would be more open to that now.
Ah, I see, in my experience doing less really helped me, I hope the same will be true for you, especially if you do have a break from work, if you can.
As far as I know with D3 you need to be consuming fat with that meal you take it with - and that meal should also not contain dairy as the calcium in it hinders the absorption - I think that also applies to K2 [at least that's how I do it - but others who know more about this than I do could correct me]. I also try to take as much of my B vits as I can with breakfast as if they are going to boost my energy I'd rather benefit from that as early in the day as possible and I take vit C several times throughout the day to keep topping up. My holistic dentist told me to take my zinc with dinner. Know the feeling re tired/emotional/cold!!!
Yes I always take D and omega3 with food and I always have good fats in all meals. Dairy free (sadly!) so that won’t cause any issues. Didn’t know about zinc with food, will try that. Who is your holistic dentist by the way? I located one in Huddersfield I want to replace mercury fillings when I can. Sorry you are suffering similar, it really sucks!
My holistic dentist isn't in England and after pandemic I hope his practice is still functioning! Who is the one you have located in Huddersfield? I might know of him as I was researching this extensively a couple of years ago. I did replace my mercury fillings - hard to say whether it made a difference per se, (in my case T3 made the biggest difference so far) but at least it is something that I know isn't causing problems any more.
Ah Ok, and fingers crossed! It’s Coteroyd - a dentist where I live suggested them for safe removal and not too far away. Yes, I’m the same, just want them out to rule them out!
Hopefully you will find good holistic dentist who follows all the appropriate protocols for mercury amalgam removal - some people will be happy to remove mercury fillings but don't do it properly, allowing you to inhale free mercury etc while it is happening. Who knows? having them removed may make a difference to you - perhaps it did in my case, but to me it wasn't measurable enough. Fingers crossed indeed!!
Do you always do test as early as possible in morning before eating or drinking anything other than water and last dose levothyroxine 24 hours before test
If Ft4 is low you are under medicated
If Ft4 is low there’s zero point doing a reverse T3 test
Thanks for taking a look. 3 sets here. 1st set 18mths ago, no levo, but GF and DF introduced. 2nd set 12mths ago, 100mcg levo. 3rd set this month, 100mcg levo.
TSH 1.5; 0.7; 1.3 (0.3-4.2)
FT4 16.7; 22.4; 16.8 (12.0-22.0)
FT3 4.4; 5.4; 4.0 (3.1-6.8)
All 3 tests will have been 9am or 9.30am, water only, skipping levo until after.
Failed to reply to message above, oops, SlowDragon
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