Anyone used Endovan, Fibrovan or nattokinase?

Endovan was recently mentioned by someone on the forum. I had never heard of it.

The jury seems to be out on this one just like everything I seem to find. After trudging around the internet it seems to me that the company that makes it is being a bit too slick with the marketing for my liking. It's also $50 for 30 day supply plus p&p to UK. My brand of cynicism often stops at the point where I might cut off my nose to spite my face so I did a bit more research on it but I do confess to a certain amount of suspicion regarding the product Endovan. The same company also make Fibrovan which they claim reduces fibroids. However, I think the main ingredient is worth a closer look.

The main active ingredient appears to be Nattokinase. I have encountered this before as natto which is a fermented soy product. There have been no clinical trials for Endovan. There have been studies into nattokinase that mostly focus on the prevention of thrombosis by thinning the blood. This does not necessarily bother me because something like Zoladex is legally prescribed and I think it's a crazy drug! Each to their own.

Natto itself is not as bad for endo as non-fermented soya products but it probably should only be consumed in small quantities due to the possibility of raising oestrogen. It sounds as though it is quite stinky and unpleasant so I'd say it's difficult to consume large amounts.

Putting this oestrogen concern to one side, I don't feel that Endovan is anything more than Nattokinase dressed up as a 'cure' with other things thrown in to make it patentable/marketable and therefore a more expensive product. Nattokinase, surprisingly, is easily available. The other ingredients are often recommended for endo by herbalists et al.

It's action seems to thin the blood so I would be wary of taking this without medical supervision. Here's a good overview altmedicine.about.com/od/na...

The claim is that it breaks down the endo. I can't find any research on nattokinase in respect of endo, fibroids etc. but there is plenty on other conditions.

Side effects appear to be:

- Blood unable to clot (if used with prescription medication)

- Bruising and bleeding

- Severely reduce blood pressure

- Nausea and dizziness

It should not be taken with aspirin or ibuprofen for instance. It is also not wise to take if anaemic or if you have low blood pressure.

Personally I would be very wary of it and would only try nattokinase with the help of my doctor.

Has anybody here had experience of Endovan, Fibrovan or Nattokinase?

Have you consulted your doctor?

25 Replies

oldest • newest

Brownlow

in reply to Gracelove21

4 years ago

Hi Gracielove21,

That's good that you're asking your doctor. Was he/she involved in the decision to take it or did you take it of your own accord?

Do please let us know what your doctor says. Any good doctor will look at the credentials of what you are taking. Ask him/her how to reverse your symptoms and if it's possible to do so.

I am just very bothered that there are no papers, research or studies about this product in respect of endo. Who knows what the long term effects could be. Having said that, there are many drugs on the market that purportedly had no side effects but this ended up not being the case. Statins and Warfarin come to mind. I think it's quite impossible to find anything that doesn't have fall-out elsewhere.

My blood pressure is normal. I'd be very annoyed if I took something that lowers it. Personally I'd rather treat the underlying causes of endo rather than the symptoms or end product.

Hi Shukudai,

I know you are from Japan and was hoping you'd post a response! Thank you.

That's very interesting to hear that natto is known for balancing hormones. I'm always on the lookout for things that help our own body regulate our hormones rather than suppress them or disrupt them in some way. But... I do question how safe this is for endo....!

I remember posting about soy products on your question about raw milk a few weeks ago saying that non-fermented soy products are not good for endo as they will raise your oestrogen. In fact, I now also think non-fermented soy is generally a bad idea for anyone! I'm not convinced about the safety of fermented soy products (tempeh, tamari, miso and natto) when it comes to oestrogen. If it's use contributes to lower incidence of osteoporosis then that says to me it has an oestrogenic effect on the body. On this basis I choose to steer clear of ALL soy products but use tamari in moderation. You probably know by now that endo loves oestrogen. Other than that, I think the traditional fermented soy products are great. It's a shame I can't have them. I love miso and tamari...but at least I can have sushi and sashimi!

If you do take natto, adding extra unfermented soya beans will make matters worse on the oestrogen front so please take care! If you do really need your natto fix probably best to use it only occasionally but leave out those soy beans. Soy is often directed at women as being good for our health but that's assuming all women suffer from low oestrogen at menopause and after. We endo girls are not most women!

However....this doesn't mean to say that nattokinase can't be taken. It is an enzyme and devoid of isoflavones. Therefore no oestrogenic effect.

I'll post more info tomorrow on nattokinase.

shukudai

Hi Brownlow,

I guess you know already but Nattokinase is in the sticky bit of Natto. How much Nattokinase in the supplement? In Japan we are told it is recommended to eat no more than one pack of Natto (40-50g) a day. I don't know how much nattokinase in a pack of natto though. If I find it I will post it.

Nattokinase is used to thin the blood and I couldn't find how it can cure Endo. I was hoping it would be the Endo "cure" and NHS will start prescribing Natto... Some of the website says Natto will remove dioxin from the body, relieve constipation, give calcium. Also I found Nattokinase is good to take in the evening as blood clots is often likely to occur in the night to early morning.

Thanks for thinking of my soya intake Brownlow, I think because I was brought up in Japan and eating soya all my life, when I exclude soya I couldn't cope with it. I really had bad PMS. I need some soya in my body. I am still keep having a drop of soya milk in my coffee and eating soya product but a lot less often than before and my PMS is a lot better. It could be bad for my Endo but I need it for my PMS. I hope I have compromised it somewhere. Funny enough some Japanese endo sites recommend a little bit of soya for endo patients so it could be ethnic thing?

in reply to shukudai

Thanks for all the information Shukudai. The Endovan product uses 100mg per capsule to be taken twice a day...so that would require quite a bit of natto to access 200g or more of the sticky stuff! I have no idea how they figured out this dosage.

I think the people behind the product Endovan have made the simple connection that nattokinase breaks down fibrin which is a component of endo. It is an interesting premise. Just because they've had the foresight to market it as a product for endo doesn't necessarily mean that it will or won't work. I should think it is something that possibly works for some women but not for everyone but you will never read the failed attempts or adverse reactions on their website, just the success stories. I might try to contact them to find out more but I don't think I'll get any useful answers. If I were to consider taking it I wouldn't take this product. All it is is nattokinase with a few incidental ingredients added.

I will talk to my doctor tomorrow about it and see if we can devise a plan to monitor my blood coagulation and blood pressure if we think nattokinase might be worth trying but I would feel like a bit of a guinea pig and time is not on my side. I'd have to get my blood tested before starting. But there are other things I might choose to try first that would mean I can't try nattokinase. I'll let you know what happens.

I completely understand your situation when it comes to soy and I think you have a sensible approach. There's no point in cutting yourself off from things that make you happy. Everyone is different and if your body is used to soy all its life then stopping completely probably doesn't make sense especially if it has some benefit for you. It's all a question of balance.

Take care! x

Analucia

I'll write about my personal experience with Fibrovan/Endovan/Nattokinasse and what I have heard or read from other patients that took those products. Firstly, I started taking Fibrovan more than 6 years ago and then switched to Endovan 18 months ago. I remember that Fibrovan worked right away (after a couple of weeks of taking it) and I noticed further improvements after a month; it decreased my Adenomyiosis (Endometriosis interna) pain by 50 to 60%. At that point I decided to try Nattokinasse because Fibrovan was too expensive but I didn't get the same results and pain went up. At that time I tried to take the same mg of Nattokinasse but I'm not sure if I took the same FU (fibrinolytic degradation units). Moreover, I read somewhere that a patient was able to get the separated ingredients from a herbalist and it worked for her. 18 months ago I switched to Endovan after I watched a testimonial where a woman reduced her pain even more with this other product. So I tried it and after a month my pain decreased by an 80% aprox. I was so happy with the improvement that I recommended the product to my hairdresser's friend and later on she said that it didn't work for her. However, I don't know for how long she took it or if she took the correct dose for her.

From what I have read in forums (not Endovan's website) these products work to different extents and sometimes don't work. I have read that for some people takes a month to notice improvements and for others (like me) just a few weeks.

Re-asking your doctor about these products. I did ask my family doctor and he told me that he couldn't tell me if the product was safe of if it would work because they don't teach natural products in Medical School, that I'll be better off asking a naturopathic doctor. My gyn said something similar. I don't think my practitioners are not good, I'm glad that they are honest, They could have googled it but I don't think that would be professional. Another topic related is the lack of "science" behind these products. I don't think we are going to have double blind placebo controlled and peer reviewed studies on this natural products anytime soon. IMHO we don't hear

about them because they are not a prescription drug. Only big Pharmaceutical companies have the resorces (billions of dollars) to advertise and even to pay people to write positive reviews. Small companies like this one depend on word of mouth, happy customers like myself that will take the time to write down their experiences, for free!

BTW regarding customer service, Fibrovan and Endovan are pretty bad, they take a long time to get back to you.. but eventually you get their responses.

Good luck!

Ana Lucia

ps: I don't work for these companies. I'm a Social Worker and I live in Canada so consult with your doctor, the above is just my experience. Once in a while I google Endovan to see what info is on the net and I found this thread so I decided to join and add my 2 cents.

ps2: Being a skeptic is good. Follow your inner voice, if something tells you not to try something maybe you shouldn't try it!

in reply to Analucia

Hi Ana Lucia,

Really nice to hear from you and thank you for your honesty. I'm happy for you that this worked.

I had reached the conclusion that this might work for some people but not for others. I totally agree with you about the issue surrounding research and testing. I'm well aware of how the whole drug testing machine works and you are spot on about us not hearing about these things because the pharmaceutical companies can't fill their coffers with these products and don't want to know...or worse, try to quash the information! In fact, I would argue that the hormonal treatments and pain meds that doctors recommend to us have far more side effects and potential dangers than something like Endovan. I do like to question things quite a bit but I'm also quite open to having my mind changed!

I think the people behind Endovan have been very clever to make the connection with nattokinase breaking down fibrin, the fundamental structure on which endo grows. It seems like a no brainer.

I recently learnt that despite some naturopath's, hebalists etc. recommending Vitex (Chasteberry) for endo, it apparently can be oestrogenic for some women. Vitex is an ingredient in Endovan which might explain why some women don't have success with it.

I figured out that the way around it is to do my own research and tell my doctor what I want to do (not the other way around) and ask him what if anything we should monitor e.g blood coagulation, blood pressure. At the moment we've decided to give my body a bit of a rest following removal of a uterine polyp but nattokinase is on the list of things to try eventually. He's a good doctor and my gynae is open minded about this too.

Just a couple of questions. Have you ever had an MRI to see what improvement has taken place? Did you ever have your blood coagulation or blood pressure checked before or during taking Fibrovan or Endovan?

Glad to hear you are doing well and thank you for taking the time to post. It's very useful and thanks also for the encouragement to listen to my inner voice. It's currently telling me to avoid the hormonal drugs and a hysterectomy!

Ariespal

3 years ago

Hi Ana,

I have been using Endovan since 03 Oct 2014 for stage IV endo. My laproscopy which was done in June 2014 was unsuccessful as they could not do anything because of dense adhesions. In the past the scans revealed endometriomas. This month, my pain is much reduced and manageable. My period was uneventful. No side effects. I take 3+3 pills. In the recent CAT scan, there was fluid accumulation around the uterus. My Gyn has asked me to start Birth control pills. I do not want to start that because once I stop, my problems double up and I also will never know if endovan is working at all. I am watching my diet. Just wanted to know how you are feeling now and any scans have confirmed that everything is fine with you? I emailed the endovan team and they are saying that this is normal and my body is responding to endovan the right way. No doctor is guiding me with the use of Endovan. So I am pinning my hopes on endovan and I am just reading on... Thanks. Ariespal

Noni_1

in reply to cquach

a year ago

I have adenomyosis too. I had surgery two years before for fibroids and endo. They put me on injections and birth control pills and after that adenomyoma went 10cm. I put high dosage progesterone and I take high dosage serrapeptase and other vitamins that worked for about seven months but now I dont feel very good. My period is a lot better with progesterone cream(heavy bleading stopped, now my cycle is 29 days from 23, and bleeding is 5 days from 10) but i have a lot of pain and i think it grows more. I will try vitalzym now. I m 26 wth no children. I think that to get rid of that you need much more than endovan. Do you avoid xenoestrogens from food and cosmetics? I stopped for a little and maybe this is the basic key. Now i will put away my cosmetics. They are full of parabens.

cquach

in reply to Noni_1

Hi Noni,

Before my adenomyosis, I didn't wear very much cosmetics in general, but after my official diagnosis I have given up cosmetics or anything that can potentially disrupt hormones. Two years ago, my doc though my heavy bleeding was from fibroids. I couldn't take the symptoms I was experiencing anymore. I had heavy bleeding (7 day cycles with 3 heavy days soaking a overnight pad very 2 hours), severe cramping where I had to take 2 days off work each month and lay at home because I was so weak, severe nausea and vomiting for 2 days, take pain meds for week 1 and 2 of my cycles, but in weeks 3 to 4 of my cycle all my symptoms went away. I had become anemic from all the blood loss. Every month would be the exact same symptoms. Decided to go and do surgery and have the fibroid removed in sept 2016. During surgery they found no fibroid to remove and did a tissue analysis and confined it was adenomyosis not a fibroid. I also had some mild endometriosis outside the uterus but nothing significant. The endometriosis was removed as well. In retrospect now knowing what the true diagnosis was, looking back at my ultrasound and MRI, I had adenomyosis this whole time and probably earlier. I'm 40 now, but when I was 30 I started to have some of those symptoms I mentioned earlier, my gyno at the time said it's probably because you've never had kids before so just take the birth control pill or Nuva ring and you will be fine. I was on the Nuva ring for 7 years, then got off it to try to have a baby. Once I got off all my symptoms I had in my 30 came back, but with full force. I know the endovan probably isn't going to fix things, but at this point I need some kind of hope that this will get better. The good thing is now that I have a confirmed diagnosis it's easier to know what to look for. So for all you ladies out there adenomyosis is more common than most docs think and are often misdiagnosed as fibroids. I came across the Osada procedure in pubmed a scientific resource listing research done in general. My MRI scan looked like the ladies who participated in the study. Look up osada procedure and read the research they published. One of the surgeons from that study Dr Sherman is in Missouri. There are two other surgeons in California that are offering different surgical techniques for preserving the uterus instead of having a hysterectomy. I would like to preserve my uterus and be able to at least try for a child. Hope this helps you and gives you some hope and direction. I plan to get a consult with each of the 3 docs offering alternatives to a hysterectomy and see what they say. Best of luck!

Nice to hear from you too! I really hope you find something that works for you in the short and long term.

I tried Vitex (Chasteberry) long ago and I didn't have a good experience with it. I took it in a tincture form that was supposed to be high quality and strong. Sorry I don't remember the dosage, it was long ago but I remember that I took a little bit more than what it was recommended in the bottle. It really messed up my cycle in terms of length, they got shorter and I didn't notice any improvement with my pain. However, I'm not getting those side effects with Endovan and I don't know why. The Vitex in Endovan is part of a proprietary blend and it doesn't say how much of each product, but I suspect the amount is low. The label says that it contains Vit B6 5mg and Nattokinasse NSP-2TM 100mg (2,000FU). BTW Fibrovan doesn't have Vitex, but I found Endovan more potent.

I have never had an MRI. I had an ultrasound 3 years ago and the report said that I had Adenomyosis and some small fibroids, so I don't know if things have improved or are still the same, what I know is that most of the pain is gone-as long as I keep taking Endovan.

I did no have my blood coagulation checked before, during or after taking these products. I don't have heart issues according to my doctors and my observation is that I have always healed pretty fast after dental surgeries. Also, I noticed that I don't get as many bruises as before taking these supplements. My blood pressure (normal low) is still the same. I take a high dose of Endovan 2 capsules 3 times per day but I don't take it for 7 days of the month -starting at the beginning of my cycle.

I avoid OTC blood thinners like aspirin just in case. I read that you have to consult with your doctor if you ever want to try other blood thinners.

I hope this helps!

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