The possible dangers of EGCG.

[silvestrov]

This posting is a followup raising issues about the combination of EGCG + Salmon oil + Vitamin C

or quercetin/bromelain with levodopa as a substitute for Carbidopa/levodopa (EGCG....levodopa) or Entacapone + levodopa (quercetin + levodopa). The forth posting in the thread.

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

Every drug or supplement may have side effects both good and bad and I am addressing the possibility that EGCG in high doses may not be good for the liver. I recently discovered this information.

Has there been any incidence of EGCG hurting the liver? Yes:

DRUG RECORD - GREEN TEA

livertox.nih.gov/GreenTea.h...

"Green tea is a popular and commonly consumed drink and its extract is found in many herbal and dietary supplements (HDS). Green tea extract and concentrated infusions of green tea have been implicated in many cases of clinically apparent acute liver injury, including instances of acute liver failure and death."

Comment

"This case demonstrates the typical acute viral hepatitis-like presentation of green tea

hepatotoxicity with jaundice....."

How can the possible negative effects of green tea extract be avoided (using supplements which are good for PD)?

___________________________________________________________________

A conservative triple antioxidant approach to the treatment of hepatitis C. Combination of alpha lipoic acid (thioctic acid), silymarin, and selenium: three case histories.

"The 3 patients presented in this paper followed the triple antioxidant program and recovered quickly and their laboratory values remarkably improved. Furthermore, liver transplantation was avoided and the patients are back at work, carrying out their normal activities, and feeling healthy."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/105...

Silymarin for PD: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/246...

parkinson.org/understanding...

Selenomethionine (selenium) for PD:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/163...

Unless you have dyskinesia: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/174...

Alpha lipoic acid (and acetyl l carnitine) for PD: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/204...

What about acetyl l carnitine for the liver?

Acetyl-L-Carnitine Improves Serious Liver Malfunction

wellnessresources.com/weigh...

______________________________________________________________________

EGCG liver toxicity symptoms are viral-like (minus the rash) but what would be a better model for drug-induced liver damage? The tuberculosis antibiotic model. TB antibiotics are harsh on the liver and can cause serious damage. What supplements are good at preventing TB antibiotic liver damage?

Protective effect of N-acetylcysteine on antituberculosis drug-induced hepatotoxicity.

INTRODUCTION:

Isoniazid, rifampicin, and pyrazinamide, the first-line antituberculosis (anti-TB) drugs, are

associated with hepatotoxicity.

"Hepatotoxicity occurred in 12 patients with (37.5%) group I and none in group II."

CONCLUSION: NAC protects against anti-TB drug-induced hepatotoxicity.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/204...

Recently there have been several posts on HealthUnlocked about NAC & PD:

healthunlocked.com/parkinso...

What else is good for the drug-induced liver toxicity (and PD)?

Prevention of hepatotoxicity due to anti tuberculosis treatment: A novel integrative approach

AIM: "To evaluate the ability of Curcuma longa (CL) and Tinospora cordifolia (TC) formulation to prevent anti-tuberculosis (TB) treatment (ATT) induced hepatotoxicity."

CONCLUSION: "The herbal formulation prevented hepatotoxicity significantly and improved the disease outcome as well as patient compliance without any toxicity or side effects."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Curcumin for PD: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/222...

If you take curcumin it should be partnered with piperine:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/961...

Is piperine good for the liver:

Piperine attenuates cardiovascular, liver and metabolic changes in high carbohydrate, high fat-fed rats.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/220...

Amelioration of CNS Toxicities of L-Dopa in Experimental Models of Parkinson’s disease by Concurrent Treatment with Tinospora cordifolia

hygeiajournal.com/downloads...

__________________________________________________________________________________

What about the other ingrediants like salmon oil? Is it good or bad for the liver?

It appears that the DHA from salmon oil (and any fish oil) has a protective effect to the liver:

Omega-3’s Benefits Now Include Liver Protection

liversupport.com/omega-3s-b...

How does vitamin C affect the liver? First of all, the addition of 200 mg of vitamin C is to help with the absorption of EGCG and 200/400 mg per day is of low therapeutic value for any condition. Vitamin C % the liver: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Even mainstream medical practitioners recommend 2,000 mg a day and the Vitamin C Foundation,

3,000 for a healthy person. I take 4,400 mg/day.

What about quercetin?

It appears that quercetin is highly protective to the liver:

google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q=...

For myself, the first 'guinea pig' of the EGCG + therapy, I am not worried about possible EGCG toxicity because I take NAC, alpha lipoic acid, acetyl carnitine, selenomethionine (selenium), vitamin C (which helps detox the liver), DHA omega 3.... I posted this for to inform about the possible dangers of EGCG and offer preventative solutions.

Rich

[12stargate]

silvestrov Thank you for this alert!!

This is very confusing!!

I am convinced more than ever that healing comes from within!!

Applying all these supplements is an attempt to heal from the outside.

We believe we have to apply something from the outside to make ourselves better.

First of all, let us come from the intention that there is nothing wrong with us!

So therefore, there is nothing to fix.

What I get to do is to wake up in the morning and rejoice that I got another day of living and loving!!

I ask myself throughout the day: What do I get to do that brings me joy?

When I do what brings me joy, that is a healing agent!

If I think I need a supplement, i ask, my liver in particular, what do you need right now? The answer for the last 24 hours has been WATER, WATER, WATER.......

The body knows how to heal itself.

We find out what it needs for support by asking it. The body.

May your day be filled with JOY!!

Eva G.

[silvestrov in reply to 12stargate]

I posted this thread to note that even 'natural' therapies have possible dangers. In the case of EGCG it is possible liver damage and if you have yellowing of the eyes or skin (while taking EGCG/green tea supplement) it should be discontinued immediately.

I recommended supplements which can protect the liver and counter balance the possible negative effects of EGCG, which include:

n-acetylcysteine

alpha lipoic acid/acetyl l carnitine

silymarin

selenomethionine

Tinospora cordifolia

Curcumin + piperine

DHA omega 3

Quercetin

Vitamin C

There are other supplements which can protect the liver and are good for PD (and the above list is not all inclusive).

Certainly, the power of the mind is essential for positively treating PD but help can be found thru exercise, dietary changes, nutritional supplementation and drugs.

I take the EGCG + therapy and it is good to keep in mind possible dangers of any therapy be it drugs, food, exercise or nutritional supplementation. I consider the problem of EGCG to me nonexistent for myself because I take most of the above supplements. Plus, taking DHA, in the form of salmon oil, with EGCG+ limits the possible side effects of the catechin.

Thanks Eva,

Have a good day!

Rich

[12stargate in reply to silvestrov]

silvestrov

Thank you. For me the well researched and well thought through list just confuses the heck out of me I have felt the pain in the liver from too many supplements.

Don't get me wrong. I take supplements. But only the ones my body agrees with.

I think I will drink some water now

You are a shining star.

I wish i had the money to buy one of your pieces.

Peace, Eva

[silvestrov in reply to 12stargate]

Eva,

If you want to support your liver the best 'bang for the buck' is NAC. N acetylcysteine is cheap and readily available. I listed so many options to give people a number of alternatives - I actually kept the list short.

I take NAC and as evidence accumulates it appears to be really good for PD. I take 600 mg twice a day and when it is studied clinically, doctors use doses of 1,800 mg a day for various maladies.

Rich

google.com/search?q=n+acety...

[12stargate]

silvestrov I actually do take NAC.

I appreciate you mention the dosage pr.day.

What do you think of Ashwagandha?

Thanks!

[silvestrov in reply to 12stargate]

I have never taken Ashwagandha but have read about its many positive applications. There are so many therapeutic options for PD I keep alternating therapies so my body does not get too use to them - especially with herbs. I am finishing my bottle of Cat's Claw and am looking for a herbal replacement, perhaps Ashwagandha or curcumin. In my past I have taken Cat's Claw, Olive leaf extract, Black/green tea extract, Bacopa monnieri, Ling zhi mushroom, piperine, resveratrol....so it is on to something new. When I research Ashwaganda more closely I may start taking it. Along with curcumin and Ocimum sanctum, Ashwaganda are the 3 of the best Indian herbs.

I have to go and do family stuff. Have a great day.

Rich

[laglag]

Thanks for the info. Like Eva mentioned, it's a lot to take in, but very helpful. I took an antibiotic, probably 30 yrs. ago that was toxic to my liver & I started turning yellow & had flu like symptoms. I believe it was called Septra. It's on my chart never to give it to me again. I will take some time & read thru the info you attached. I believe antioxidants are very good for PD.

Thanks again!

Debbie

[silvestrov in reply to laglag]

When I have more time I will summarize this information later. I have a lot on my plate at the moment & had to quickly post this unwieldy information.

[silvestrov in reply to laglag]

Debbie,

I was mistakenly given Septra/Bactrim for a minor skin infection & it caused temporary kidney damage. (Which healed after usage was stopped my kidneys healed.)

Rich

[stevie3]

Very helpful, Rich. I often cut your posts and paste them onto the notes page on my iPad. They are a very useful reference. I had already done a lot of research and your information validates it. NAC was one of the first things I started to take. Thank you. What a resource this place is.

[silvestrov in reply to stevie3]

It is my pleasure to share information on this site. I have been studying nutrients for years and continue to learn about herb's, amino acids, etc. I have additional insight into this subject and after family business is concluded I will post it.

[park_bear]

How do the benefits of gallic acid compare to EGCG? I take that in the form of rooibos extract. Apparently it too can be toxic at high enough dosage sciencedirect.com/science/a...

[silvestrov in reply to park_bear]

Subchronic toxicity study of gallic acid by oral administration in F344 rats

"However, the severity of these pathological changes was weak."

Here is a toxicity report about gallic acid:

tools.niehs.nih.gov/cebs3/n...

Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), also known as epigallocatechin 3-gallate, the ester of epigallocatechin and gallic acid, and a type of catechin

Green tea extract is used around the world for weight loss or attaining a more muscular physique by weightlifters or other athletes. The pattern I am seeing is those on the athletic spectrum have healthier bodies and controlled plans to tone up their bodies using GTE, than do people who want to lose weight. Athletes use scientific evidence to achieve body sculpting......and the following article illustrates my point:

The Effect of Green Tea Extract on Endurance

Performance in Young Adults

scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/vi...

Also, it is possible that dieters have the beginning stage of Non-alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease,

patient.info/health/non-alc...

All things considered, taking GTE with liver protecting supplements like NAC, DHA omega 3, acetyl l carnitine & alpha lipoic acid, silymarin.....is a smart move to mitigate possible negative effects on the liver. And it is a bonus they are all good for PD.

I know I speculated a bit but without more detailed, factual reports, I have to use logic to draw conclusions.

[rsacdoolittle]

Are there some particular ways you have found, anyone here, to manage the cost involved with supplementation? Thank you for your researching Rich.

[silvestrov in reply to rsacdoolittle]

I usually buy months of supplements at a time from a supplier with lower prices and good quality. For the combination of alpha lipoic acid and acetyl l carnitine I buy the vitacost brand. Many of my supplements are purchased through Swanson. I buy the animo acid theanine through Nutrabio because of low price and pharmaceutical grade. If you look on eBay there are suppliers who sell supplements in bulk and the quality of their products is fine. Of course the big issue is to decide on which supplements to buy.

[BUZZ1397]

Thanks for the EGCG warning. I'll cut back to just 1 mg/lb body weight and just use it twice a day

[silvestrov in reply to BUZZ1397]

I think if you use NAC with EGCG you will be fine. Since NAC can inhibit liver toxicity from 3 TB antibiotics (which are very toxic) it can protect the liver from EGCG. Plus taking DHA from salmon oil also protects the liver. In my opinion the people who had problems were reckless by using excessive amounts of GTE extract to lose weight. None of the cases involved athletes only dieters. Finally, by taking quercetin you add another layer of protection. As for myself, I am not losing any sleep but it is good to inform others to the possible dangers.

[enjoysalud in reply to silvestrov]

Hi Silvestrov, thanks for the posting on EGCG. Before starting my son on EGCG I had read info included on a number of sites on Green Tea (extracts and EGCG). A number of them mentioned to not exceed 750 mg in one day, as there was a possibility of damage to the liver. I only printed one out, sorry. For what it's worth it was green-tea-guide.com. Where I am confused is using L-theanine and EGCG. They both come from green tea. Am I to add the usage of both (to not exceed 750mg) or can they be used as separate supplements? I GOOGLED for an answer, but either I'm not asking the question correctly or it's not been answered. The liquid vitamin/supplement DAILY concoction (taken morn and lunch) currently consists of a total of 375 mg of EGCG, 600mg L-theanine (taken separate in pill form 3X daily), 500 mg of CQ10, 3000 mg of Vit C , and 1000 mg of B-12, and 500 mg of niacinamide. Any comments?

[silvestrov in reply to enjoysalud]

I don't think you have to worry about EGCG because of the supplements you listed. EGCG & theanine dosages are separate issues. Yeah they are from the same plant but their 'drug' profiles are completely different. EGCG can hurt the liver and theanine has protected the liver in alcohol models of liver disease. The doses you are taking are fine. Mainstream practitioners recommend 1200 mg/day of theanine but people on anxiety goes have taken 4000 mg/day of theanine with no consequences. Vitamin C detoxes the liver. Niacinamide can further damage the liver (obviously if it is already damaged) but at 500mg - taken with the supplements you are taking, there are no worries here. B12 injectors have been used as therapy viral hepatitis. Coq10 can cause liver enzymes but 500 mg/day is not a high dose. All things considered I don't see much danger here. It is always good to get a yearly physical to make sure there are no complicating issues.

[Hikoi]

Silverstrov

You certainly have and continue to research PD. I guess your father's illness got you interested. I know you like many types of classic music but I'm not sure if you have PD and if so your story of diagnosis and life since. As I read your detailed information I wonder how you get to use it and hope you get to share it beyond here.

[silvestrov in reply to Hikoi]

Hikoi,

I do not have the time to answer your posting properly because my father recently died from PD and a gallbladder complication so I have family stuff to do. When I do have time I will recount my medical and personal history which made me travel the non-pharmacological path of treating PD. It will be my longest posting on this site and will take time to gather all the information together. Perhaps I will be able to start it next week.

Have a good week.

Rich

[Hikoi in reply to silvestrov]

Sorry to read about your father. I look forward to reading your story when you have time to write.