giving mucuna prurien powder a try

So, after reading many of your posts noting the benefit of eating/drinking mucuna prurien I've decided to go there. Just ordered a pound of the powder from Banyan, the american supplier. Buy American! Should be here in a week or so. I'll experiment around with it. I hope to be able to stop taking C/L but I'll be happy with any improvement in my movements. It doesn't cost very much happy to discover.

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  • best of luck; keep us posted

  • Will be interested to know how you get on.

  • Can anyone tell me if there are any disadvantages to using Mucuna Pruriens(sp?) instead of, or alongside, Madopar? (Apart from it not being available on prescription in the UK and therefore presumably costing more than the standard prescription charge).

    And as it apparently doesn't cause dyskenesias can anyone tell me why it isn't used and prescribed more in the UK?

    Has anyone found it didn't help? Sorry to sound negative - I don't mean to be; I'm wondering whether to give it a go but feel I need to know a bit more before taking the plunge. . .I've read very positive reports which sound very promising and just want to check I've got a rounded view. If it's not successful I'm worried that I won't come back to the state I was in before taking it and will end up even worse.

    I've also been told that broad beans somehow increase dopamine levels in the brain and that drinking the water they've been boiled in is very beneficial. Sounds fairly vile - anyone else experimented with broad beans?

  • I don't know about Madopar, but I took Mucuna Pruriens alongside ropinirole until I could stop the ropinirole. I now use only Mucuna Pruriens. It's a natural source of L-Dopa. I have not noticed any side effects like I did with ropinirole alone, and MP has NOT stopped working for me. I use the 98% Mucuna EXTRACT powder from Powder City. Get the extract. It's the pure L Dopa without fillers. powdercity.com/search?type=...

  • Hi Pen,

    I have been on a Mucuna regime for a year. I have never taken NHS medicines. I am 2 years from diagnosis, and my nurse, and neurologist are both impressed with my health.

    I spent a year or so searching and experimenting before coming up with a solution. There is a guy named Marty Hinz who has been working on Parkinsons for 10 years or so using amino acids with some success. The problem with conventional medicines lies with the Carbidopa that is given to help with the nausea caused by the LDopa. Dr. Hinz uses 5HTP instead. It's a bit more complex of course, but the bottom line is that Carbidopa damages the body, 5HTP doesn't.

    Ok, my search finished at the Cargioli Centre in Indiana. Dr. Ron Cargioli took me through the process of balancing my amino acids using FaceTime. He started on a couple of short sessions per week, and latterly just one per week. He charges about £2000 for a year of consultations, and a couple of the aminos are bought from him. The down payment is an act of faith, but I have found Ron to be extremely fair and honest; and, to be honest, it's an act of faith for him also.

    My ongoing costs come to about £25 per week, but that is dependant on the cost of the Mucuna that's available. My costs initially were nearer £100, but hopefully supply and demand will keep prices down.

    Why isn't this on the NHS? Because it hasn't been through the rigorous testing of Pharma drugs. Why not ? Because naturally occurring compounds cannot be patented. I think it's a scandal, but I'm biased.

    Hope that helps. God bless.

  • Buzz, you may be disappointed in the results of the whole bean powder. It's great stuff, but it's low in L-Dopa. What you need to try is the EXTRACT. I bought mine from powdercity.com (http://www.powdercity.com/search?type=product&q=mucuna+pruriens). It cost me $3.71 for 10 grams. This is the 98% pure extract. It is very effective, at least for me. God bless.

  • There is a way to use a natural replacement for carbidopa (sinemet = levodopa + carbidopa). Carbidopa is a aromatic l amino acid decarboxylase inhibitor, it inhibits an enzyme which prevents the conversion of levodopa into dopamine in the body so (the majority of the l-dopa) will be delivered into the central nervous system.

    Use pure (natural) levodopa from the mucuna pruriens plant and combine it with (at least) 94%+ pure EGCG from green tea. EGCG is a decarboxylase inhibitor:

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/113...

    If you are taking a MAO inhibitor some caution must be exercised when taking large doses of EGCG because it is also a MAO B inhibitor (which is good news if you are not on a MAO B inhibitor like azilect or selegiline):

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/204...

    The problem with taking EGCG is it is not bio-available - readily absorbed, by the body. German researchers noted that 94%+ pure EGCG is better absorbed when taken with 200 mg vitamin C and 1,000 mg of omega three from salmon (salmon oil). Other conditions: EGCG is best absorbed on an empty stomach upon waking and again at 4:00 PM and caffeine, calcium, milk or hard water (heavy in minerals) must not be taken with the EGCG - they will prevent absorption) information source:

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

    Are omega 3s good for Parkinson's (yes):

    articles.mercola.com/sites/...

    What other components of salmon oil are good for PD?:

    Salmon oil and vitamin D:

    livestrong.com/article/2855...

    Is vitamin C good for PD (yes):

    "CONCLUSIONS: Whereas vitamin C has a strong link with Parkinsonism..."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/250...

    Is EGCG good for Parkinson's (yes): lib.dr.iastate.edu/etd/13626/

    This combination could present itself for the early morning and late afternoon doses of levodopa, but what about the late morning and evening dose?

    Entacapone is a Parkinson's drug used for on/off syndrome. Entacapone inhibits the catechol o methyl transverase enzyme which prevents this enzyme from converting levodopa into dopamine in the body - it has similar action to carbidopa. It just so happens than another catechin from green tea, quercetin, is also a comt inhibitor:

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/127...

    Is quercetin good for Parkinson's (yes):

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/217...

    But quercetin is not well absorbed so it has to be taken with bromelain - an enzyme from pineapples:

    "Additionally, as I stated earlier, bromelain assists in increasing your body’s absorption and utilization of quercetin."

    quercetinbromelain.org/

    Upon waking - EGCG plus C, Omega 3 + levodopa

    11:30 AM - Quercetin/bromelain + levodopa

    4:00 PM - EGCG plus C, Omega 3 + levodopa

    9:00 PM - Quercetin/bromelain + levodopa (if needed)

    After having tried all of the above the only side effect I encountered was stomach gurgling from the salmon oil. The cheaper the salmon oil, the more gurgling you will experience.

    Carbidopa = 94%+ pure egcg with 200 mg vitamin c and salmon oil

    Entacapone = quercetin and bromelain

    I developed this method over months (years) of research and make the most of it.

    Rich

  • What a fascinating and informative post. Lots to study. Thank you Rich.

  • My pleasure. The only side effect I encountered from the EGCG + therapy was some stomach irritation....the cheaper quality salmon oil you buy the more stomach irritation you will have. Make sure it molecularily distilled to remove toxins. I have posted this many times because there are people who are looking for alternatives to Sinemet/Madopar and this is a viable alternative. The major question is proper dosing levels of the green tea extract/egcg and levodopa. A good combination of quercetin/bromelain is: allstarhealth.com/de_p_ref/...

    94% pure egcg: pureencapsulations.com/teav...

    98% pure egcg (and it's cheaper): amazon.com/dp/B00GZQFGGG?psc=1

  • Thanks so much, silvestrov! What about dosage? Can you give us more info as to what you are doing? Do you have RLS or PD?

  • I have PD. My use of levodopa + EGCG....has evolved quite a bit. I previously used the amino acid tyrosine but, with time, I became agitated because tyrosine produces a lot of noradreniline and I was wired up and had to quit. Since large doses of levodopa are required (wthout carbidopa) I was taking 500-1,000 mg/day). I have been investigating the medicinal properties of tea and I noticed EGCG is a decarboxylase inhibitor and quercetin is a comt inhibitor. I taken (in the morning) 500 mg (mucuna pruriens) levodopa with a 670 mg standarized green tea extract containing 400 mg of 98% pure EGCG (a massive dose). Along with 1,000 mg salmon oil & 200 mg vitamin C.

    amazon.com/dp/B00GZQFGGG?psc=1

    NOW has a green tea supplement and it is only 400 mg (60% catechins).

    As for yourself, I would try to imitate the time and dose of Sinemet/Madopar you currently take combined with EGCG.....quercetin, etc.

    There are other reasons to take EGCG:

    If a PD patient has a Helicobacter pylori stomach infection it can interfere with the absorption of levodopa. EGCG is antagonistic towards Helicobacter pylori:

    "Thus, our result implies that continuous intakes of green tea could prevent the deleterious consequences of H. pylori infection."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/156...

    PD patients also have constipation problems and the bacteria involved is Clostridium difficile.

    the-scientist.com/?articles...

    EGCG and C. diff:

    "...EGCG has significant antipathogenic effects on C. difficile and can be used to prevent or treat C. difficile-associated diseases or C. difficile infections."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/265...

    Quercetin and H. pylori:

    "CONCLUSIONS:

    Our results indicate that in vivo oral quercetin administration decreases H. pylori infection in the gastric mucosa and reduces both the inflammatory response and lipid peroxidation."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/186...

    I am fortunate I do not have to take additional amounts of levodopa (in addition to 500 mg in the AM). The reason is my body responded to a combination of CoQ10, magnesium, multiple B vitamins............other minerals. CoQ10 responsiveness is unpredictable. In clinical trials it has earned a 'C' because it sometimes works and sometimes does not. It worked for me. After taking 1,200 mg CoQ10 a day my chest fasciculations went away and PD essentially went into remission. I feel rather lucky.

    Rich

    PS. Silvestrov (Ukrainian) is one of my favorite composers:

  • Thanks so much, silvestrov! You were very thorough in your explanation. I appreciate your help. There is so much desperation "out there" from folks who cannot find natural methods to help their situation. I absolutely HATE drugs; my two experiences with prescription drugs both ended badly. So I am NOT going to repeat drug therapy if I can help it. My doctor has a good heart and is willing to work with me, so I feel blessed. After a lot of late-night research for natural modalities that had some science behind their use, I actually, TOLD him what I was going to do; I did not ask him. He was okay with it and appreciated receiving the printouts I supplied.

    BTW, how long have you been taking your current protocol?

  • I have been experimenting over the last 2 months with either EGCG or quercetin/br and EGCG does work best with salmon oil. I tried (non-health food store) high potency fish oil and it gave me some indigestion. High(er) quality (Norwegian) cod liver oil caused very mild upset and salmon oil, no upset stomach at all.

    When I first tried the EGCG + therapy with 500 mg levodopa from MP it felt like a warm ambient light was gently floating in my head. Amongst its other qualities, EGCG has anxiolytic (anti anxiety) activity (and it certainly was pleasurable): sciencedirect.com/science/a...

  • Oh, yes, the warmth I have been feeling that too. As I am experimenting I am not knowing if that warmth is withdrawal of the C/L or the effect of the EGCG/MP. Time will tell. So far the only positive effect is in fluidity of movement (decreased cog-wheeling) and increasing grip strength in my effected hand. The other apparent effect is visual and may be because I am a little high on MP but it seems my eyesight has improved. But I cannot trust that it is so. Probably a placebo effect.

  • Well, if the effect lasts longer than 2 years it is not a placebo effect - time will tell. I am glad to hear you feel some improvement (for whatever the reason). This therapy needs to be experimented with because everyone may have a different 'sweet spot' for the dose of levodopa required.

    Perhaps the EGCG is positively effecting your eyesight because I did a search and found the following article:

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

    It was difficult finding 200 mg vitamin C so I ordered childrens 100 mg 'gummys' to take with the EGCG. It is a hell of a lot easier (and faster) chewing a couple gummys than measuring out 200 mg of vitamin c from a capsule. What a pain in the neck!

  • Holy moly! I use moisture drops every day sometimes twice for dry eyes on recomendation of the opthallmologist. What a serrindipitous outcome is the EGCG fo me. Hey that rhymes.

  • You just never know where things may go.....sorry about that. Yes it is a truly strange result....but a happy one. May it continue.

  • Thanks for the info. I'll see...baby steps, baby steps

  • This is so fascinating and makes so much sense. I am especially interested in the focus on gut bacteria as I have had 'gut' problems since a child (i'm 59) and am sure that this was the first indication of Parkinsons. (Both my adult children have similar gut issues and although I've said nothing to them it worries me. I've just become involved in research into gene alteration in people with young onset here in the UK - if they find any changes then my family may be investigated.) I've got a feeling, from the occasional piece of research or paper that have been popping up, relatively unremarked, recently that this is the way to go to find if not a cure then a way of stalling the development of PD. Disgusting as it sounds I'd willingly be a guinea pig for faecal transplant - the trouble is I don't know that anyone is researching it in the UK.

  • Disgusting or not, faecal transplant was done on 3 patients who had continuous constipation problems and after the transplant, their Parkinson's went away to the point where other neurologists did not think the patients had PD. Sounds like a good idea to me.

  • silvestrov what is faecal transplant?

  • Taking faecal matter from a donor and replacing the faecal matter in your body. The fekalier, I looked it up online, has to be tested to make sure it has a normal distribution of bacteria. It is a good idea and if someone has constant constipation while having Parkinson's disease I would look into it.

  • thefecaltransplantfoundatio...

    I am off to bed.....have a good day tomorrow.

  • Still waiting for my EGCG (?) to arrive but received a lb of powdered MP and started using it as a supplement to my routine C/L a few days ago. Mixing 1/2 tsps into warm pineapple juice. No harmful effect. Tasted a bit like raw peanut alone not in the juice. Not much effect at all either way. Hope that using the EGCG with it causes a noticeable benefit. If not I'll increase the amt. and see what goes on.

  • It is probably a good idea to not take EGCG with MP/levodopa, salmon oil and vitamin C, together with Sinemet. In order to test whether you respond to the combined therapy it needs to be taken all by itself. The amount of levodopa can be experimented with to see if there is a 'range' of response. Since I was previously taking large doses of levodopa daily (500 mg) without carbidopa, the first time I took the combined therapy I felt it immediately. Perhaps the large dose of levodopa was part of the reason for my response. But like everything with PD, there is no guarantee that people will respond the same way. It seems to be a ailment which eventually evolves into therapeutic trial and error.

  • silvestrov Hi! So I am sitting here looking at a bottle of EGCG 1000mg, Mucuna Pruriens 500mg, Salmon oil 690mg and Vit C 1000mg. Is it ok to use that much Vit.C?

    I start tomorrow morning, and I am excited!!

    What time in the morning do you take your 'coctail' silvestrov?

    And then again at 4 pm.

    Thanks!!

  • Keep a level head about the therapy. Just see what happens....

    Just to make sure you are taking what was specified in the article.

    Is the EGCG 94%+ pure?

    1,000 mg of salmon oil is required so perhaps you should double up on the oil. 1,380 mg total. I am not sure what effect more salmon oil will have on the absorption of EGCG.

    I have extra capsules of pills I do not use and dump the old pills out and 'cut/guess' 1/3 of it into the empty capsule. EGCG requires acidity to be absorbed but how much?

    Just try this once in the AM upon waking and see how you respond. With the salmon oil you will not feel any stomach upset. Other oils including state of the art purified cod liver oil cause gurgling....but not salmon oil.

    When I combine my 98% pure 407 mg of EGCG (in a 670 mg capsule of green tea extract) I feel no stomach upset.

    I hate to nitpick but the article was pretty specific...

    Whatever happens you are all the better for keeping an open mind and being a trooper. It took me 2 months of experimentation and research to figure out this protocol.

    Skål!

  • Tomorrow I would just try one dose in the morning and see how you feel. It is good to start slow. A 500 mg levodopa dose is pretty big and, with experimentation, a smaller dose may be required later in the day. Just start and take it slow...

  • silvestrov I am chickening out. I am going through something very stressful. Now may not be the time to do this.Because when I get right down to it, it stresses me out. Right now I do not need more stress.

    The Omega oil is just fish oil from Norway. I thought it was salmond oil..

    I don't know if the Green Tea exctract is 94 % pure. It says 98%TP, 50 % EGCG.

    What does that mean?

    I wish I had your knowledge. Are you a chemist??

    I need to let this sink in a little more.

  • What brand of fish oil is it? I am not a chemist but most companies post the information about their oil ..... no problems with delaying the therapy because of a stressful situation. If you have anxiety I know a bunch of good anti-anxiety agents. Hang in there!

  • silvestrov I just posted on my fb page about anxiety.

    I would love to hear your anti-anxiety agents!! :)

  • Received my order of green tea extract. Tried it out in combo w/salmon oil and MP last night at a time when I ordinarily would have taken some of my usual regimen that includes some C/L. Surprisingly it worked so well that after a half hour I felt better, but about an hour later I began to feel some heat and palpitations as usual when I have waited too long between C/L doses. Therefore, I medicated w/good result and slept. I tried the same this morning on an empty stomach right upon rising and again I felt PD relief but soon enough I got the body sense that my body was "needing" me to take the C/L. So, if MP in combo with green tea extract and salmon oil is to take the place of my C/L I believe I might need to carefully titrate my C/L to avoid a CNS revolt. There is probably a good reason not to abruptly cease C/L, like NMS or something so I won't risk that. I will test the possibility of titration over the next few weeks. If I find it is possible I will report back. Either way I will find out soon enough.

  • BUZZ1397 I found the same thing yesterday when I did the green tea regimen. After a while I needed l/c or C/L. I may try it again in a few days.

    I too am thinking that I can't go cold turkey off L/C.

  • How did it totally effect you? Like I once posted, Parkinson's patients react so differently it is difficult to predict if something works or does not. Did you use 500 mg of levodopa?

  • silvestrov If you mean 500mg of Mucuna, yes.

    a few hours after a took the morning dose without the L/C, I started feeling really lethargic, and I knew I needed l/C. I took one tablet, and felt ok. I also took L/C with my 4 pm dose. Felt so wierd I decided I can not go off L/C cold turkey!

  • Could you do me a favor and post what type of EGCG/green tea extract you are using? Also, are you using salmon oil? I figured out how to not have to measure 200 mg of vitamin C every morning: children's vitamin C: Children's Vitamin C Chewable have 100 mg of vitamin c in 1 gummy.

    pureformulas.com/vitamin-c-...

  • silvestrov I appreciate your mentoring.

    This is what my bottle says:

    Green Tea Extract

    90 tablets

    Green Tea Extract(98% TP 50 % EGCG) 1000mg

    I am using Norwegian Fish oil

    Thanks for the reminder about the children's chewable C.

  • I noted feeling a bit tired too after taking EGCG and found this on an anti-anxiety website:

    socialanxietysupport.com/fo...

    You mentioned you felt lethargy and if your PD symptoms did not worsen, then the levoopa was absorbed but the unintended consequence is sedation. Who knew? I certainly did not realize that this may happen. The dose of EGCG you are taking is larger than mine hence a more pronounced feeling of lethargy. I noticed it and about 1 1/2 hours later drank a dark cup of English breakfast tea - the most heavily caffeinated black tea, to counterbalance the effect. Did you PD motor symptoms worsen along with the feeling of fatigue? I cannot wait for the children's vitamin C to arrive because trying to measure the proper amount of C from a capsule is maddening. Plus, the article said some sugar actually helps the absorption of EGCG and the children's gummy has natural sweetener.

  • silvestrov I am blessed in that I do not have many motor dysfunctions. My only one is that I walk funny when i get dizzy.

    Dizziness, dry mouth and constipation are my worst symptoms. And of cource, anxiety.

    Please tell me how to treat constipation?

    Thank you!!

  • I am looking into it. I am fortunate I do not have that problem. I am looking for solutions that are good for constipation and PD. Nothing else is a good solution.

  • I think I may have found something that works for both constipation and Parkinson's disease: Psyllium Husk (Isabgol) (Plantago Ovata:

    amazon.co.uk/Psyllium-Husk-...

    A randomised clinical trial to evaluate the effects of Plantago ovata husk in Parkinson patients: changes in levodopa pharmacokinetics and biochemical parameters

    Conclusions

    :

    "Plantago ovata husk administration caused a smoothing and homogenization of levodopa absorption, providing more stable concentrations and final higher levels, resulting in a great benefit for patients."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

    In so many words Plantago Ovata will decrease the frequency of on/off syndrome associated with use of levodopa/carbidopa.

    It looks like a winner and I would certainly give this a try.

    Rich

  • silvestrov thank you so much Rich!!! :)

  • silvestrov I just ordered it!! :)

  • Great! I did a little further research about the relationship between vitamin C and levodopa and the following study notes that 200 mg of vitamin C "can improve LD absorption in elderly PD patients with poor LD bioavailability." In other words, to improve levodopa absorption you should take 200 mg with every dose of levodopa/sinemet regardless of what it is.

    The effect of ascorbic acid on the pharmacokinetics of levodopa in elderly patients with Parkinson disease.

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/156...

  • Here is an interesting article about dry mouth:

    breezecare.com/mediacenter/...

  • silvestrov Very interesting indeed. I have dry mouth, only the sticky kind. And it is aweful, so say the least.

    I am not ready to buy the product yet. And I will try EGCG before I do.

    As always, Silvetro, thank you. This was just what I needed.

    I did buy a bottle of Aloe Vera to drink from Amazon.

    :)

    Today I went to Whole Foods, and purchased several 'Superfoods.'

    I believe some of our symptoms can be alliviated by the right foods!

    I will let you know when I figure it out :)

  • Another constipation article.

    Use of probiotics for the treatment of constipation in Parkinson's disease patients.

    CONCLUSION:

    "This pilot study showed that a regular intake of probiotics can significantly improve stool consistency and bowel habits in Parkinson's disease patients."

    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/215...

    The EGCG product they mentioned for dry mouth is:

    camellix.com/products/might...

  • Sure Sylvestrov. Salmon oil is vital choice -wild alaskan sockeye salmon oil (omega 3 600 mg, EPA 240 mg, DHA 220 mg). Green tea extract is Swanson superior herbs-TEAVIGO brand- standardized 90% EGCG, caffeine free (150 mg EGCG).

  • So, I'm done experimenting with MP and conclude it is useful. As the raw material source for Leadopa, MP has earned a place in my daily regimen. But I won't quit taking CL due to the benefit of CL's portability. If I was completely home bound I could see not needing CL.

    I start every day (until something better comes along) with half a cup of warm pineapple juice with 3/4 tsp of MP stirred into it and with that I swallow a capsule of EGCG and my vit D and a capsule of salmon oil. After about half an hour I also take half a tab of 25/100 CL and my capsule of GABA-plex. This routine has improved the duration and the stability of my level of dopamine out to about 4 hours depending on how successful I am at avoiding processed protein. In the mornings I consume none, just an apple and my vegetable/fruit puree drink and some ginger snap cookie if needed. The cost of Dole pineapple juice is a bit high but worth it as a liquid for mixing up an MP drink. Well that is all I have to say about me and mucuna pruriens.

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