New BH results thyroid+11 - freaking out help please!

Hi,

Had my thyroid+11 test done and slightly freaked out by the doctors comments which seem to suggest I could have an infection :-/ and are quite firm about needing to contact a gp soon. I don't have a clue about the vits or where to even start with supplementing? Could supplementing help reduce the antibodies? Is the CRP and ferritin completely separate and mean an infection elsewhere? As many of you will know from my last results my GP was completely dismissive and really horrible to me about them. I'm assuming since my TSH has lowered I now have no chance of getting treatment? Might be worth noting I was feeling symptoms of hyper the few days or so before anxiety fast heart rate etc. and had treatment for thrush 6 days prior.

I had the +3 a few weeks ago and levels were

TSH 5.03 (0.27-4.2)

FT4 14.52 (12-22)

FT3 5.43 (3.1-6.8)

(test done at 1pm)

New results are as follows. Taken at 8am.

TSH: 4.77 (0.27-4.2)

T4 Total: 77.2 (64.5-142)

FT4 12.57 (12-22)

FT3 4.96 (3.1-6.8)

Anti-thyroidperoxidase abs 80.6 (<34)

Anti-thyroglobulin Abs 565.1 (<115)

Vit D (25 OH) 20 (Deficient <25)

Vit B12 238 (Deficient <140) (insufficient 140-250)

Serum Folate 8.31 (8.83-60.8)

CRP 11.30 (<5)

Ferritin 188.9 (20-150)

Thanks.

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  • Salphy There's no need to freak out :) The comments about the infection were probably due to your raised CRP and high Ferritin. I'm assuming you don't supplement iron (let me know if you do). You say you had treatment for thrush a few days prior - an infection! That probably raised your CRP and Ferritin.

    Do I take it you have not been diagnosed hypothyroid, and you are looking for a diagnosis?

    You actually have autoimmune thyroid disease aka Hashimoto's as confirmed by your positive antibodies -

    Anti-thyroidperoxidase abs 80.6 (<34)

    Anti-thyroglobulin Abs 565.1 (<115)

    Hashimoto's isn't treated, it's the resulting hypothyroidism that's treated. The antibody attacks will eventually destroy your thyroid and you will develop full blown hypothyroidism.

    Dr Toft (ex president of British Thyroid Association and leading endocrinologist) wrote an article in Pulse Online magazine which says that if antibodies are present then patients should be prescribed levothyroxine to 'nip things in the bud'. Email louise.roberts@thyroiduk.org.uk and ask for a copy which you can then show to your doctor.

    Some reading about Hashi's:

    stopthethyroidmadness.com/h...

    stopthethyroidmadness.com/h...

    hypothyroidmom.com/hashimot...

    thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/about_...

    Adopting a gluten free diet can help reduce the antibodies. Gluten contains gliadin (a protein) which is thought to trigger autoimmune attacks so eliminating gluten can help reduce these attacks.

    Gluten/thyroid connection:

    chriskresser.com/the-gluten...

    Supplementing with selenium, L-selenomethionine 200mcg daily also helps reduce the antibodies, as does keeping TSH very low or suppressed.

    Your TSH is too high and your Free T4 and Free T3 too low. The Free Ts should be in the upper part of their reference ranges, and TSH very low as mentioned because of your Hashi's.

    Vit D (25 OH) 20 (Deficient <25) - recommended level is 100-150nmol/L. You should get some D3 and take a loading dose of 10,000iu daily for a month, then reduce to 5,000iu daily. Retest in the Spring and when you've reached the recommended level reduce to 5,000iu alternate days. Retest once or twice a year to keep within the recommended levels. If you are a sun worshipper you may not need to take any during the summer as you will get it from the sun through the skin (only where there's no sun screen though).

    When taking Vit D we also need it's important co-factors K2-MK7 and magnesium. Vit D aids absorption of calcium from food and K2 directs the calcium to bones and teeth rather than arteries and soft tissues. D3 and K2 are fat soluble so should be taken with the fattiest meal of the day.

    Magnesium comes in many forms, check here to see which would suit you and as it's calming it's best taken in the evening:

    naturalnews.com/046401_magn...

    Vit B12 238 (Deficient <140) (insufficient 140-250) - Recommended is very top of the range, even 900-1000. You can get some Solgar or Jarrows sublingual methylcobalamin lozenges 5000mcg and take 1 daily, dissolve under the tongue, don't chew or swallow as stomach acid destroys it. After 2-3 months (or when you finish the bottle) you can reduce to 1000mcg daily as a maintenance dose.

    Serum Folate 8.31 (8.83-60.8) - B12 and folate work together. When taking B12 we need to take a B Complex. You can get Thorne Basic B which contains 400mcg methylfolate which will help raise your low folate level. B vits can be stimulating so they're best taken in the morning, no later than lunchtime.

    Don't start all supplements at once, introduce one at a time, adding the second one a week or two after the first, then wait another week or two before introducing the next one, etc. If there are any adverse reactions you will know what caused it.

  • Thanks Seaside Susie. No I don't supplement with anything or take any medication. I am hoping for treatment as I've been having symptoms for a while now. But my thyroid hormones don't seem to reflect how i've been feeling? I've felt so crap already for so long I don't want to develop full blown hypo!

    I don't think the trush treatment made a difference which is why the mention of infection scared me. Is the infection separate to the thyroid?

    Where do I start with the supplements and where do I get them from?

    Are they ones that can be bought in Tesco etc or do I need specific? I occasionally take bassets multivitamins but I'm assuming these aren't enough?

    Do I take the results to my GP before or after supplementing?

    Sorry for all the questions.

    Thanks again for your advice

  • Unfortunately, if you read the links about Hashi's, you'll see that you will develop hypothyroidism at some point. The antibodies will destroy your thyroid, but you may be able to delay that for quite some time (years even) if you follow the advice. Many members have found being strictly gluten free has helped enormously, so it's well worth a try and sticking to it.

    Get some selenium (this is the one I use cytoplan.co.uk/selenium ) and take 200mcg daily.

    Take the Dr Toft article to show your GP and ask to be started on Levothyroxine. If he wont agree then ask to be referred to an endocrinologist who knows about autoimmune thyroid disease (they don't use the term Hashimoto's). Aim for a dose of Levo that allows you to achieve the levels I mentioned in my other post, as long as that is where you feel well.

    So that's what you need to do about the Hashi's.

    I don't think the trush treatment made a difference which is why the mention of infection scared me. Is the infection separate to the thyroid? - CRP and Ferritin can be raised by any infection and inflammation anywhere in the body. It doesn't have to be anything to do with the thyroid. Just the fact that you had thrush (a yeast infection) can be enough to cause the raised levels. So please stop worrying about that. Had you recently taken any antibiotics that might have caused the thrush? If you take any antibiotics, always take probiotics as well. The antibiotics kill bad bacteria but they also kill good bacteria. Probiotics repopulate the gut with good bacteria and need to be taken during and after the course of antibiotics.

    As for your new Blue Horizon results. Take them to your GP now, obviously discuss the positive antibodies and ask to be started on Levo, but also discuss your low levels of vitamins and minerals. There's a slight chance he might give you a prescription for Vit D, but to be honest it wont be anywhere near what you need and he certainly wont know anything about it's co-factors. Stick to the suggestion made. He may be a little concerned about the low folate but my guess is he wont. He certainly wont be worried about your low B12 despite the fact that anything under 500 can cause neurological problems. Optimal levels (not just in range) of vitamins and minerals are needed for thyroid hormone to work properly, our own or replacement, so it's important to get them sorted.

    Stay away from supermarket supplements, Holland and Barret own brand, and multivitamins. They all contain cheap ingredients, often the wrong sort, and not enough of anything to help very much. Go for decent brands with good bioavailability.

    Most supplements can be bought from Amazon, I also have other favourite online suppliers (Lifestyle Labs, Health Monthly, Bodykind).

    Suggestions for some I like:

    D3 - amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Best-V...

    K2-MK7 - amazon.co.uk/Doctors-Best-N...

    Methylcobalamin - amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Subling...

    then amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Subling...

    B Complex - amazon.co.uk/d/Vitamins-Min...

    As mentioned, don't start them all at the same time.

  • Salphy I didn't give a suggestion for magnesium, decide which form would suit you best (from the link I gave) and I'll see if I can find a suitable brand for you.

  • yes sorry I think I was just associating infection with bacterial and didn't consider yeast. However with the treatment not making a difference I'm no longer convinced it is that. I haven't been on any antibiotics or anything for a long time. I did have a time a couple of years ago of yo-yo-ing between thrush and BV which wasn't fun.

    Thanks for your advice, I need to find a new GP as mine completely dismissed BH results, was horrible about my blood test phobia and wouldn't tell me what the blood tests he wanted to do were for.

    I will stay away from the supermarket vits from now on and do as you suggest. Thanks :)

    As for the magnesium reply below I've honestly no idea. I don't really want it to make me go to the loo. I'm not sure about the cardiovascular issues one as it runs in my family, I got slight chest pain hiking whilst in Scotland over new year (I'm 24) and have high BP when it has always been very low - this may all be down to the weight gain though.

    The malate would maybe help with my fatigue?

    But the chloride which could boost metabolism would be welcome too!

    Thanks again for all your advice I really appreciate it x

  • What's BV? I've not heard of that before. As treatment doesn't seem to have helped with the thrush, I wonder if you need to be looking at a different treatment, particularly for Candida. That can be a beggar to get rid of. There is a private saliva test you can do for Candida which might be worth doing and if positive you could look into specific treatment.

    As your GP dismissed your BH results, you should ask for him to do his own antibody test. NHS generally tend to do only TPO but you should push to see an endo to get TG antibodies done as well as they are so high.

    Magnesium malate might be a good choice for you. This one is a good brand amazon.co.uk/BioCare-Magnes... or you might want to look at magnesium oil spray, some members use that. I use magnesium citrate powder.

  • Bacterial vaginosis basically when the thrush is treated it allows the natural bacteria to grow too much and changes the ph the opposite way. Then that was treated so the yeast grew and I ended up with thrush again. They both have to balance each other out. Nightmare.

    Thanks I'll have a look into that but a bit skint at the min with xmas starting a new job and spending £150 so far on blood tests.

    I saw that Candida is a symptom of hypo?

    Sorry I should also say that my main concern is wanting to get my periods back regular. They're about every 8 weeks now with slight spotting around the 4th week when I would normally be due on.

    My gp wouldn't tell me what he was testing for. What was tested certainly wasn't up for discussion.

    What's the difference between TPO and TG? Why would one be much higher than the other?

    Thanks again I really appreciate it x

  • BV doesn't sound very nice :( .

    Candida can be a problem for some hypos. I did the Candida test as part of a whole barrage of tests to rule out (or in) different things and fortunately it was negative.

    Doctor/patient relationship should be a partnership. Your GP sounds as though he expects his patients to just say 'yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir'. Doesn't wash with me, I need to know so I ask questions and my GP does explain things.

    TPO and TG are different types of antibodies. You can be positive for one, or the other, or both - whichever way, if they're positive it's autoimmune thyroid disease.

  • Thanks,

    Does it matter how high/positive they are?

    When I told him my last TSH result had come back high (5.03) his response was "Ha! Hardly. Its clinically insignificant."

    So do I need to wait until the TPO one gets higher or is 80 enough for diagnosis and treatment even with the normal-ish thyroid results?

    Thank you :)

  • Salphy

    "When I told him my last TSH result had come back high (5.03) his response was "Ha! Hardly. Its clinically insignificant."

    Well, he's a first class t*rd then! Of course it's significant (but of course he's waiting for it to reach 10). If ever you're told something as stupid as that again, if you have an over or under range result and it is dismissed, the question to ask is "Why is there a reference range then".

    As for your antibody results -

    Anti-thyroidperoxidase abs 80.6 (<34)

    Anti-thyroglobulin Abs 565.1 (<115)

    Positive is positive, as long as they are over the level given in brackets there is no argument. They don't have to be any higher than they are. TPO would be positive at 35 and TG would be positive at 116. It confirms autoimmune thyroid disease.

    As mentioned in my first reply above, Dr Toft suggests, when antibodies are present, that Levo is started. There is no doubt that antibodies are present in your case, you are positive for both and your TG ones are very high.

  • Thank you :) Him being a t*rd is something I definitely can agree with!

    Going to try and switch GP's on Friday and hopefully get somewhere there.

    Otherwise I spoke to the online chat of "Push Doctor" (private gp appointments via video chat) as I saw their advert on TV the other day.

    The advisor said they are currently developing their own private blood tests but their gp's will consider all results and medical history I have and can prescribe everything apart from controlled drugs.

    Just out of interest, if it were you, what would you supplement first? Seems to be suggested that I should leave B12 for now until having further tests and addressing the vit d? Or would you push to start levo before supplementing anything?

    I just want to feel normal! I don't really remember how it feels x

  • I've not heard of Push Doctor (off to Google in a minute :) )

    Be careful of private prescriptions, obviously you will pay for the prescription plus the cost of the thyroid meds. And once you've started them you'll probably be unable to get a diagnosis on the NHS.

    What you really need is an NHS diagnosis of hypothyroidism (autoimmune thyroid disease in your case). Once you have this you then apply for exemption from prescription charges based on the diagnosis (assuming you're in England as Wales, Scotland and NI don't pay prescription charges). Then all your future prescriptions for anything will be exempt.

    I've seen the replies about B12. By all means pop over to the Pernicious Anaemia Society forum for their advice healthunlocked.com/pasoc . I always suggest this when B12 level is very low. I didn't suggest it for you because you're not in the Deficient category, and only really just inside the Insufficient category. I'm not convinced your GP will agree to test for PA from the sound of it.

    If the Pernicious Anaemia forum suggests supplements straight away then start B12 first, give it a week or two, then B Complex, another couple of weeks then Vit D, then K2, then magnesium.

    If they suggest asking to be tested for Pernicious Anaemia then you can start now with the Vit D, then add the K2, then the magnesium.

    Don't wait to start the supplements but certainly push for Levo now (or a referral to an endo if GP can't be persuaded), supplementing nutritional deficiencies won't change your antibodies. But don't forget about gluten free and Selenium.

  • Yes that would be the goal but I'd rather feel well than have free scripts if I can't get anywhere. Especially if the fight to get treatment means getting belittled from gps as I did the other day. I used to work in pharmacy and the cost of levo is a few pounds a box if that. On top of their private script cost £6.50. Wouldn't be much different than the normal cost of a prescription. Only thing would be the £20 appointment fee but well worth it to get my life back :)

    Plus they said most are NHS gp's - maybe I could find a good one and follow him to his/her nhs surgery and then they'd have no choice but to give the same diagnosis/treatment :)

    Hopefully it won't come to that. I've seen it on google searches a few times as featured ads when looking for private thyroid specialist but dismissed it as a bit of a scam. Then I saw an advert on TV when in Scotland over new year and spoke to them and they seemed fairly positive. Haven't seen it advertised on English TV yet though.

    Thanks, that's reassuring to know. I don't cope well with blood tests or injections :(

    I'm not convinced my GP will agree to any test I ask for at the minute to be honest :)

    I did post on the PA forum and someone has suggested to get an MMA test for further investigation before supplementing that and folate. But to address the Vit D now so will follow your advice thanks.

    I'm going to see if I can find anywhere to get an MMA test done privately.

    I feel slightly guilty about switching GP and the first time we meet I'm taking a very red looking set of blood results and a request(demand) for Levo and an MMA test and possibly some supplements :) I best choose wisely x

  • One last question sorry - will I always need all these supplements?

    Once I get treatment for thyroid and it's stable could they improve on their own? It's quite expensive for them all :) x

  • You'd have to re-test periodically. Once you get vits and mins up to optimal levels then a maintenance dose (at a reduced level) may be enough but you do need to keep levels optimal. Stabilising thyroid won't improve your vits and mins, but optimal level of vits and mins will help your thyroid.

    For example, my Vit D was severely deficient at 15. I started supplementing with a high loading dose for two weeks, reduced to 5000iu and within two and a half months my level was 190. I now use a combo D3/K2 supplement at a lower dose 4 days a week (magnesium on those days as well) and it's keeping my level within the recommended range.

    Selenium I take every day as it helps conversion of T4 to T3.

    For Ferritin I eat liver regularly.

    Vit C daily is always recommended as it helps support adrenals.

    B12 I take 1000mcg 4 times a week as a maintenance dose with B Complex. For your B12 you'll have to see what is advised. If you do have I mentioned I believe in some circumstances they are for life. You would need to take B Complex if having B12 injections. You'll get guidance on the PA forum.

  • Salphy It's just occurred to me that for any procedure you have to give your 'informed consent', you also have the right to refuse. If your GP won't tell you what he is testing for there's no way you've given your informed consent.

    I don't know the procedure at your surgery, but at mine if the GP wants you to have a blood test you are given a slip then go to reception to book an appointment with the nurse. One afternoon I was having routine spirometry for my lung disease and the nurse said she'd do an 'MOT' while I was there and she'd do 'some routine blood tests'. I asked what tests and she reeled them off and included checking my thyroid as it was 'overdue'. I immediately said 'No, I don't want my thyroid tested. I want thyroid tests done first thing in the morning'. She was a bit shocked but the thyroid test wasn't done!

    So, in case it happens again, and he won't tell you what the test is for, just mention to him that you know he needs your informed consent to carry out the test and if he won't tell you what he's testing for then he hasn't obtained your informed consent.

    It does sound as though this doctor is a bit of a bully or he thinks he's rather superior to his patients!

  • I would post your results on the pernicious anaemia forum your B 12 is low enough to be causing you serious problems and my own advice would be to take those results to your Gp you may possibly need b12 injections rather than taking supplements......

  • Thank you Pixie. How is that diagnosed? I'm petrified of blood tests and not the best with injections. I feel like I've opened a huge can of worms :( x

  • Well it should be diagnosed with symptoms or blood test, your results are low and it could be caused by many things pernicious anaemia being one of those things. Diet (vegan/vegetarianism) can cause low b12 also some medications but if you post your results on the PAS forum on health unlocked there are some experts who can give you excellent advice. I know you should avoid supplementation until you have a diagnosis. Your own Gp will want to do his own blood test I imagine.... you also have Hashimoto's thyroiditis ( oh I think that has already been said) ....

  • Thanks Pixie I have done :)

    I'm not vegan or vegetarian and don't take any medication or supplements. I don't eat a lot of red meat (maybe once a week in spag bol or something, couldn't sit and eat a steak or anything) I don't like fish only tuna but I do have that regularly and eggs, cheese and drink a lot of milk.

    My own gp did want to do his own blood test but wouldn't tell me what for and told me my private results were clinically insignificant. Which is what brought me here :)

    I'm planning to switch dr's soon

    Thanks again x

  • I think with the private test in your dr eyes the blood tested could belonge to someone else. So they are not happy to treat of the back of those bloods. Only bloods they draw from you and are tested in there labs. If you have dairy in your diet you should be getting enough which leans toward an absorption problem or pa both of those need diagnosing. Maybe find out what your own Gp has tested and get your results. I would be surprised if he has tested b12.

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