Antibiotics & Probiotics - updated!

[Jefner]

UPDATE: This is a little worrying!!!

Just read an article on the BBC website about whether probiotics are worth taking with some doing more harm than good.

bbc.com/future/article/2019...

The researchers, led by Eran Elinav, gave 21 people a course of broad-spectrum antibiotics for one week. After this, they had a colonoscopy and an upper-gastrointestinal endoscopy to investigate the state of their microbiome throughout the gut. As expected, a lot of major changes occurred in the function of the microbes – many of which died because of the antibiotics,” says Elinav.

"The volunteers were divided into three groups. The first was a wait-and-see group, with no intervention after the antibiotics. The second group was given a common probiotic for a month. The third was given perhaps the least savoury option: a faecal transplant. This group had a small sample of their own stool – taken before the antibiotic treatment – returned to their colon once the treatment was over. We have found a potentially alarming adverse effect of probiotics,” says Elinav"

Now we come to the interesting part!!!!

The surprising finding was that the group who received the probiotic had the poorest response in terms of their microbiome. They were the slowest group to return to a healthy gut. Even at the end of the study – after five months of monitoring – this group had not yet reached their pre-antibiotic gut health

So where does that leave me then with the probiotic I was recommended and now restarting at a lower dose especially with a compromised immune system? Am I in fact doing more harm than good by taking it and better to stick to food stuffs??????

I am reading so much conflicting so-called evidence, who the hell are you supposed to believe?

==============================================

Completed a 5 day course of Flucloxacillin for what looks like a small abscess around my nether regions but alas it isn't any better so may have to have another course depending on what my GP says tomorrow when I am booked in for a home visit and I really really do NOT want to take another course because I feel battered by the one I have just had.

That particular antibiotic really knocked me about so I am wondering if anyone out there has been on something different that isn't quite as harsh on the tummy. Obviously we are all different in our tolerances but lots of us have gut issues with the Hashi's and some of you may be able to suggest an alternative (that you have tried) that I can mention to the GP who is coming round for a home visit tomorrow to have a look at the infection, and it won't be MY GP who knows all my history so I need some knowledge and ammunition to throw at the one that is coming because I know what they are like, they will just chuck anything at me without considering my other issues. My cousin has been a nurse for years and she did mention Co-Amoxiclav as an option

Plus I was gobsmacked to learn that antibiotics can in actual fact cause anxiety. Was on a forum yesterday and so many people who had never experienced anxiety in their life had it when taking their course and that their Doctors wouldn't believe them when they told them (surprised...not!) so might explain why mine worsened.

I started my probiotic a few days ago, which was probably too higher dose to start on and put me straight into die-off symptoms so it was suggested by the nutritionist at Amrita whom I spoke with, to empty some of the contents out and start out again on a lower dose rather than bombard my system with too much at once (which it felt like) and then build up to a whole cap in around a weeks time.

Also looking for more natural products to rebuild nuked gut bacteria. My appetite isn't that good at the moment due to the nausea with my now out of sync tummy and aggravated anxiety.

I so have some YeoValley Kefir and Kimchi from Sainsburys. I am having a few sips of the Kefir here and there throughout the day and a little Kimchi with my evening meal but it's difficult getting it down due to my lack of appetite/nausea.

Does anyone know of a decent site online where I can order other food stuffs that will help, as with agoraphobia I can't get out and have to put a minimum £40 order of £40 with Sainsburys or I get slammed with a £7 delivery charge

Thank you

[Cake-Maker]

I can empathise. I’ve just finished four ‘back to back’ courses of antibiotics for a UTI which was ab resistant. They finally cracked it with a 7 day course of Trimethoprim but my anxiety was sky high and I didn’t sleep at all for 6 nights.

Anxiety and Insomnia listed as ‘rare’ side effects but GP tells me they’re relatively common.

[Regenallotment Ambassador in reply to Cake-Maker]

🟨⚠️Here is a link for making yellow card reports. That rare/common symptom clearly needs more data! Glad to hear it finally worked. Hope you have been able to rest up.

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

[Cake-Maker in reply to Regenallotment]

Aah. Thank you. 😘

I’m trying to rest physically and mentally. Four courses of abx take their toll but at least we now know which one to head for in case of recurrence.

[Jefner in reply to Cake-Maker]

wow a Doctor that actually "believes" antibiotics can cause anxiety, wow!

[Cake-Maker in reply to Jefner]

Mmm. That’s the problem. So many medics think medicine is a religion.

[nightingale-56 in reply to Cake-Maker]

Mt skin began to break down (around my ears) when I was given Trimethoprim for a UTI. I was told by Dr Peatfield (RIP) that it had broken down my Adrenal Glands. This problem improved when on Thorn ACE for about a year.

[Cake-Maker]

Co-Amoxiclav is a good option. Few side effects but sadly the infection was resistant to it.

I can recommend Optibac as an excellent probiotic. They do a range of different probiotics. See Amazon

[Jefner in reply to Cake-Maker]

reluctant to buy from Amazon as there are so many fake reviews and I currently have a good one, am looking more for sites where I can buy fermented food stuffs

[Cake-Maker in reply to Jefner]

I understand.

I was staggered to hear from a friend yesterday that her dog has developed a heart murmur as a result of a fake supplement for dogs from a third party seller.

It’s a case of bewaring fake reviews and fake products too

[Jefner in reply to Cake-Maker]

oh that's awful, hope doggy is ok

[Sparklingsunshine in reply to Jefner]

Just a fyi many of the fermented foods you buy arent that good, by law they have to be pasteurised to kill harmful bacteria, but like antibiotics it also kills off the good stuff. If you are interested in getting the benefits its really worth making your own. I've made my own kefir for years, or you can make water kefir using cocnut water. And home made sauerkraut is easy and cheap.

[Jefner in reply to Sparklingsunshine]

and yet I can find unpasteurised stuff on the internet . Just don't have the enthusiasm or motivation to make my own but I will look into it thanks

[Staffsgirl in reply to Jefner]

Do consider making your own kefir. It’s so incredibly easy, and will be so much better for you, and cheaper! Starter grains are not expensive, and you only need a very small amount. I would advise getting the live grains as opposed to the dried ones. There are a number of good online companies which will supply the grains.

Also,I doubt that Sainsbury’s kimchi is very live! I haven’t yet found a live kimchi in a supermarket. Several companies online sell it: look for ones that have to be kept in the fridge as soon as they arrive. If not kept in the fridge, they will be inclined to carry on bubbling. Alternatively make your own… I often do. Again, it’s easy.

I totally sympathise with your antibiotic situation: in the past year I have had to have them for a couple of really nasty infections. They knock me about. I hadn’t known they cause or increase anxiety, but that figures entirely!

(Waitrose charge £4 delivery.)

[Jefner in reply to Staffsgirl]

livekefircompany.co.uk/prod... found this and wonder whether it's better than having cow's or goat milk which I might be too sensitive to right now

and found this one where it says they need to be kept in the fridge and they are despatched chills as well. What do you think? bathculturehouse.co.uk/coll...

[Staffsgirl in reply to Jefner]

I think the company I have used is called FreshlyFermented. They post the grains to you in a pack that is chilled, and arrives within the day, I seem to remember. I’m sorry I don’t know how to put the link on here🤔. I can’t really comment on using coconut milk since I’ve only ever used whole organic milk. But it might well be worth trying if you have a problem with dairy.

I’m sorry I can’t be more help, but I do wish you luck with your foray into the kefir world, and with your health in general. To reassure you…it’s a doddle, especially once you get in the swing of it.

And just to add: if I have antibiotics, I always take a reputable probiotic as well. One that was recommended to me by a GP who is also a homeopath was Probio 7, available on Amazon if I am not mistaken.

[Cake-Maker]

She is Ty - just lots of expensive vets’ bills

[Sparklingsunshine]

My husband has lymphodema in his leg and is prone to getting ulcers/infections if his skin breaks open. Flucloxacillin is notorious for upsetting the stomach, its like bloody Napalm, strips everything out. One time when his leg hadnt responded to the Flucloxacillin and they wanted him to have another course we asked for an alternative. I think they prescribed Amoxicillin that time which was much more tolerable. I would explain its upset your digestion and ask for a different one.

Morrisons can deliver, you only need to order £25 worth. You can either set up an account with them or use them via Amazon Prime. Iceland is £25 minimum. Where I live Tesco and Coop do home delivery with the little black and white robots. They can deliver just a few items.

[Jefner in reply to Sparklingsunshine]

I have had Amoxicillin before for a couple of two abscesses and they worked a treat and I don't recall having all the shitty symptoms that I do now on those so I may ask for those again if needed. I use iceland and Co-op but my co-op doesn't sell the stuff I need.

[BB001]

Try taking a course of VSL#3 provocative to restore for bacteria. Revital.co.uk sell it.

[Jefner in reply to BB001]

i have a probiotic but the one you suggested is far too high to start with. I am looking for more natural food stuffs to try that I might not be aware of

[healthkiwi]

Not a direct answer, but have you thought of using honey as a topical dressing? Been used safely for thousands of years. There's lots of research on using honey to aid wound healing. Preferably manuka honey because of its special properties, but any RAW honey will help. Good raw honey with its natural enzymes is naturally antibacterial, contains substances which clean out wounds, pus, etc and encourages speedy healing.

[Cake-Maker in reply to healthkiwi]

Absolutely right. My mother was a nurse and in the good old days honey was a respected treatment. She swore too by saline gargles, saline baths and all things saline. We used to call her ‘The Salt Queen’.

She was also a firm believer in Comfrey (known as ‘bone knit’) for sprains and fractures and Slippery Elm for gastritis.

I suppose it’s worth remembering that many pharmaceuticals are derived from natural sources. For example, Willow Bark contains salicin which is the main ingredient of Aspirin.

Reflecting on all this, I see consuming pig thyroid in a whole new light!

[healthkiwi in reply to Cake-Maker]

As global forces shift around us, supply chains are unreliable, our own pharmacists either can't find reliable sources or our NHS/ insurers refuse to pay or exert other stranglehold levers, we need to remember that some of the simple old remedies are highly effective. As long as we still have bees, salt, bicarb, herb gardens, etc.

[Jefner in reply to Cake-Maker]

my cousin is a nurse at a & e and I spoke with her yesterday and she sees absccesses all the time. She told me to stop using any creams or TCP (which might aggravate it) and remove dressing to allow some air to get to it, which I did, only wearing a dressing in bed to prevent any chafing/sweating and woke up this morning and it has gone down a little. She says sometimes they can dry up on their own after a course of antibiotics so hopefully I won't need another

[nightingale-56 in reply to healthkiwi]

I am using Medihoney to dress a broken skin problem on my Son's ankle after an operation for a broken ankle. The wound was caused by a surgical boot rubbing just above the ankle. I find it is very good and am applying it to Melolin dressing to apply to ankle. I buy this Medihoney from Amazon .

[Mlinde]

This might be quite useful information on this extremely powerful antibiotic, judging by its 'side effects'.

patient-info.co.uk/flucloxa...

If you can, try to get live yoghurt, my (ex) wife had all her gut bacteria wiped out (this was in NYC) and our GP recommended a course of live yoghurt and it worked but you'll have to overcome your lack of appetite somehow.

[Jefner in reply to Mlinde]

yes since found out after having it, it's a nasty one so it will be on my doctor's records now never to have it again

[Observer]

Goats milk Kefir is very good

[Jefner in reply to Observer]

found this one but omg the price amazon.co.uk/Mount-Olympus-...

[Observer in reply to Jefner]

I get mine from Chuckling goat and they do regular deals off the main price, good stuff as well.

[Jefner in reply to Observer]

livekefircompany.co.uk/prod... found this and wonder whether it's better than having cow's or goat milk which I might be too sensitive to right now

[Cake-Maker]

You’re right that this antibiotic is not well tolerated by many. It’s on my ‘Adverse Reactions’ list along with quite a few others.

I have Multiple Antibiotic Intolerance so struggle to find one which doesn’t cause bad side effects. It’s now reached the point where I’m having to revisit one or two on this list but I just have to tolerate the side effects, take probiotics and then recover as best I can.

I will never attempt to take Nitrofurantoin again though. (Macrobid) usually prescribed for UTIs. Three days into a course of this I suffered serious Psychiatric symptoms - confusion, depersonalisation and a bucket full of other nasties. I kept telling OH that I didn’t know where I was and didn’t recognise him. It was horrendous. Yet I know many people who swear by this medication

And yes. It’s a known side effect but ‘rare’. I have a theory that these ‘rare’ side effects are rare only because they lack data on the frequency. I think that’s because many people don’t associate these symptoms/events with the medication they’re taking and it’s never reported - either to GP or MHRA.

I would urge everyone who has any adverse effect to any medication to do a Yellow Card Report whether the ‘unwanted effect’ (side effect’) is listed or not. That way, some of the rarer (or even unknown ones) may shift position in the order of things.

I use Drug.com to check for side effects. There is a tab for professionals which lists these in categories and gives more detail.

[Mostew]

Buy wholefoodsonline is a very good small company. Lots if organic stuff . Saukraut and kimchi etc . Have a browse.

[Jefner in reply to Mostew]

thank you

[radd]

Jefner,

I'm presently trying mirobz which are liquid probiotics so you can add as much or little as you like.

microbz.co.uk/collections/h...