Probiotics 'not as beneficial for gut health as previously thought'
Research finds probiotics caused ‘very severe disturbance’ in gut when taken in conjunction with antibiotics
Probiotics, hailed by some as a cure for all kinds of digestive ailments and recommended by many GPs alongside antibiotics, may not be as universally beneficial for gut health as previously thought.
The gut microbiome is the sum total of all the micro-organisms living in a person’s gut, and has been shown to play a huge role in human health. New research has found probiotics – usually taken as supplements or in foods such as yoghurt, kimchi or kefir – can hinder a patient’s gut microbiome from returning to normal after a course of antibiotics, and that different people respond to probiotics in dramatically different ways.
In the first of two papers published in the journal Cell, researchers performed endoscopies and colonoscopies to sample and study the gut microbiomes of people who took antibiotics before and after probiotic consumption. Another group were given samples of their own gut microbiomes collected before consuming antibiotics.
I hope they continue to research this area. For example, what about home grown products like kefir? Do they adapt to the bacteria present in the home and immediate environmment and therefore are more protective and better to repopulate the gut then factory made products like yoghurt? As the research says, trial and error still seems to be the only way to find out what suits a person.
It helps the quercetin get absorbed. Quercetin helps with allergies, inflammation, colds etc but is hard to absorb. Bromelain is from pineapples...an enzyme.
I wonder if the same is true without taking antibiotics. I ordered someprobiotics with prebiotics but the product had none of the latter.After seeing the news item my daughter said it was a good job Amazon had reimbursed me.
Thank you for that helvella. I don't take probiotics but recently been on strong antibiotics for eight weeks and been so rough afterwards so that's helped to explain a lot!
Me too Silverfox I’ve been on antibiotics for 2 months for Lyme disease so have been taking probiotics. Now worried about what other problems I might be storing up for later.
I had three months last year, mainly on doxycycline, for a skin infection which I'm prone to since inadequate treatment for Lyme 18 years ago. I took my own kefir, keeping it well away from the doses of doxy, and only had problems (severe constipation) when I was put on a thiazide-like diuretic during all that. I was lucky not to have anything more than slight nausea when the dose of doxy was doubled and flucloxacillin added. Home-made kefir has a greater variety of bacteria than commercial products, and is far cheaper than encapsulated probiotics.
Bromelain is a digestive enzyme from pineapples (often provided with papain, from papayas). They are also said to help with degrading biofilms -- the hiding place for bacteria, including Lyme. Alternative enzymes are nattokinase, serrapeptase and lumbrokinase.
Thanks v much for this explanation. I wonder if bromelain would help with poor digestion due to low HCL?
How do you make kefir? Is it easy?
How much treatment did you have for Lymes ? I’m on cefuroxine now for 4 weeks afte having had 4 weeks doxycycline but don’t really want to keep taking antibiotics although I know Lymes is still there. Did you start to feel well at all after the inadequate treatment for Lymes? Or have you been suffering all these years. I really hope not. Feel free to message me direct.
Real milk is best. Nut milks don't work, but sugar/coconut water does, but you don't get the same levels of beneficial bacteria and vitamins. I'm otherwise vegan but i use milk for kefir.
Yes, bromelain is used as a digestive aid, also as a meat tenderizer. The capsules may be designed to pass through the stomach and so wouldn't affect digestion.
The best way to make kefir is to use "natural grains" as they, with a little care, will last indefinitely. The grains are sold or given away (ebay, Freecycle, Facebook etc.). A manufactured culture may also be used, but it's consumed in the process and dies out. Water kefir grains are also available, which are used with sugar water and then given a second ferment with fruit juice or fruit, to make a carbonated drink.
For milk kefir I use a 700g glass peanut butter jar, put in a TBSP or more of the grains and pour in whole milk, leaving a bit of head-space for expansion. At room temperature it's ready in a day, or two or three. Then it's strained through a nylon sieve, the grains scooped out for the next batch (they multiply, over time) and the strained kefir may be poured into a jar and refrigerated. It's OK left at room temperature, at the risk of it turning more sour. It can also be given a second ferment with the addition of some fruit peel, or even garlic. This flavours and thickens the kefir. The strained kefir may be further strained through muslin, to make a soft cheese, though I haven't tried.
My GP said something like "I wonder if it's Lyme disease?" when I went back after being given antibiotics for a leg ulcer, and a bull's-eye rash had developed. I recall checking a website or two and thinking the US disease must be a lot worse, as I didn't feel bad. The ulcer didn't hurt and others appeared, which makes me wonder if they were due to tularaemia. The rash appearing a week or two after the bite fits with the progression of Lyme, and is sufficient for a diagnosis, though there was no mention of it in my notes. I was given erythromycin which, even back then, wouldn't have been the first choice. It gave me an increased appetite and I didn't feel unwell. Ulcers reappeared about a year later and my activity level had dropped. I now know I've had post exertion malaise for years. I had chest pain and high blood pressure a couple of months after the bite and now wonder if it's Lyme carditis. Periods of chest ache have continued and my hypertension, untreated at the time, went unchecked and untreated until four years ago. About five years post-bite I had a 'flu-like episode with no respiratory or gastric involvement, lasting about a week, and repeated the following year. Migratory pain and fatigue were enough to send me to the GP six years after the bite, which is when I first had my thyroid tested. Brain-fog becoming a problem after 10 years. One-off occurrences of severe back pain lasting a night and neck pain and stiffness with high temperature lasting a few hours. Warts over all my fingertips and low in range plasma viscosity, disregarded as indicators of immunosuppression. My sleep greatly improved after the recent antibiotics, for a couple of months, but is currently worse than ever. Current GP said nothing would be done about Lyme at this stage. My thyroid test results can swing over the course of a few months and I have felt cold and constipated when seemingly overtreated.
Thank you for this reply. It’s all very scary and I just feel so depressed about it. Until April I thought I was in great health. I can’t sleep & cant stop worrying all the time. I don’t know if it’s worth carrying on with antibiotics or if I should stop. It’s very lonely and scary.
You're doing well if you're getting such treatment from the NHS. There's a risk of overtreatment from private doctors, but Dr Lambert in Dublin is recommended. I assume the IV antibiotic would be administered by a Community Nurse (District Nurse)? Unfortunately, antibiotics cannot be guaranteed to knock out the infection(s) in all cases. I can't vouch for their usefulness, but I would also take lauricidin and a combination of biofilm busters (I think cistus incanus tea, nattokinase and serrapeptase are the cheapest). Oregano essential oil is recommended. There are several complex and more expensive herbal protocols which may be too much to take at the same time as antibiotics and, as with antibiotics, the "herxing" may more properly be described as side effects, and nothing to do with killing bacteria.
My cat scratched herself raw between her shoulder blades (a tick? she doesn't have fleas) and the vet has given her a shot of antibiotics, after saying she looked unwell from the colour of her gums. The field she goes in is an old orchard, never ploughed or sprayed, and lying fallow this year after having sheep for three years. There are muntjac deer one field further along, which has an abandoned railway line and I strongly suspect the rabbit population of harbouring tularaemia, which I believe was my co-infection with Lyme.
I checked my medical notes and my blood pressure was 180/100 when my GP wrote that my description of the feeling in my chest was bizarre, a couple of months post-bite. A nurse checked it and wrote to him a year later when it was 150/90. Pre-bite it was 120/80. When I got another leg infection due to a minor accident, I was back in the system having regular dressings, so didn't avoid an NHS health-check, at which my BP was 220/100. Having changed GPs, I must've gone 14 years with untreated hypertension, and remember taking my mum for a BP check (a bonus payment for GPs must've been involved) and wondering why I wasn't tested at the same time.
Do you have experience of Dr Lambert? I think he uses antibiotics to treat Lymes too.
No I’m getting treated privately & not on IV. Oral cefuroxine for 4 weeks after 4 weeks doxycycline. I will stop after this and see what happens. I will try lauricidin and I’m taking biofilm busters from private clinic. I’ve not tried oregano oil but I will. How do you take? Next step might be a herbal protocol if I can find someone to prescribe.
My digestion is now pretty poor judging by my stools (sorry if too much info ) as is my sleep or lack of. I think gut plays a big part with sleep. Also I have terrible dryness in mouth & everywhere else & am convinced it’s sjogrens but docs ive seen say it’s unlikely as tests don’t show it. I can’t think what else would cause such dryness everywhere. I’ve akso got head tightness & tingling in arms legs & ache in arms. These symptoms can be sjogrens or Lymes or thyroid issues so it’s v hard to work out & GP no longer interested and private docs seem only interested in the tests & money & when they can’t figure it out they too lose interest. In the meantime I’m feeling worse and worse. Any ideas anyone?
You mentioned about herxing possibly just being a reaction to antibiotics rather than a die off which is what I thought it was? Why do you think that? Other times I had taken antibiotics over the years I don’t think I’ve had a herx?
I haven’t had one (that I know of ) since starting cefuroxine so not sure what’ that means ?
My blood pressure is also much higher than it used to be which was always on low side.
Did you test for co infections? I haven’t heard of tularaemia? What are the symptoms ?
I’m so sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope you can get some relief.
I've just checked Stephen Harrod Buhner's "Healing Lyme", and oregano oil is only mentioned as part of a tick repellent mixture, though I'm sure I've read of others swearing by it. Buhner is keen on Japanese knotweed, with Baikal skullcap and/or red sage as cytokine remodulators. The bacteria go after our collagen, so gelatine, bone broth, selenium and kudzu are recommended. Astragalus to boost immunity. In the Core Protocol chapter he addresses the common problem areas, so I would suggest you get the Kindle edition (more easy to search).
Since adding Thiroyd to a reduced dose of Levothyroxine, my gut motility/transit time is a lot better. I've had dry eyes lasting several weeks at a time for about ten years and a dry mouth (not much of a problem, now) started a couple of months after my mum died, which had sent me hyperthyroid. I also went hyperthyroid (undiagnosed/untreated) aged 12 when my father died and with the more recent occurrence I was still unsure what was going on and thought it was a natural response which would pass. Things seemed calmer a couple of months later when I saw my GP about my dry mouth, which would occur with slight increases in activity. I had a thyroid test as I'd gone sub-clinical hypothyroid the year before, then swung the other way with the worry about my mum. With this test and the following two, my free T3 was above range and continued to climb. I didn't feel bad, so I shudder to think what it was when I was "at the eye of the storm". By then it was November and I avoided getting an appointment for a variety of reasons, not least of which were the difficulty getting through on the 'phone and the winter waiting list. I survived the following two years and when I was back in the system and being treated for hypothyroidism and hypertension my dry mouth and eyes seemed of no concern and my mouth was, I suppose, put down to the hypertension (my BP had not been checked two years before, when I was hyperthyroid). A year later I had a horsefly bite which may have introduced another infection or invoked a pre-emptive immune response, which affected me cognitively for a few months. I was given a lot of blood tests including for Sjögren's syndrome, but nothing was untoward apart from TPO antibodies.
The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction was originally described in relation to the treatment of syphilis, which is also due to a spirochete. Increased temperature and heart rate with chills, shortly after the start of treatment, should resolve quickly, but may be life-threatening. The J-H reaction is said to be more common during treatment for late Lyme, when there are more spirochetes (there are fewer spirochetes in Lyme than syphilis). (Lyme disease complicated by the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, Anna L. Maloy, Robert D. Black, Romualdo J. Segurola, Journal of Emergency Medicine, Vol 16, No 3, pp 437–438, 1998.)
I got on board the Lyme bandwagon a year ago, when receiving Doxycycline for skin infections, reading about its uses and wondering if it would knock out remnants of Lyme "if I had had it." I now know my EM rash was diagnostic and am dismayed at my former GP not recording it yet having the time to express his personal opinion about side issues. I've been in other situations where both parties are required to sign off the notes as being a true record.
In reading about Lyme and co-infections, down at the bottom of the list was tularaemia, supposedly non-existent in the British Isles, though vets know better. The indolent (painless) ulcer fitted the description. I doubt I'll find anyone to formally diagnose it, 18 years after the event, and experts from Porton Down have written of its stealth infection capabilities, making it impossible to test for at a late stage. Apparently, there's a T-cell memory response for 25 years or longer, following infection, so a horsefly could bring me an extra dose from the rabbits in the neighbouring orchard, as may have happened in 2015.
Buhner covers anxiety, sleep issues, even rage in the book mentioned above (Healing Lyme). He's prepared to admit that he's revised his opinions about treatment options, which I see as a strength. He's also got a book about herbal antivirals. Once our immune systems have been clobbered by Lyme, viruses can become the real threat.
I always feel sceptical about any "research" that seems to suggest that we need more pharma drugs and fewer cheap or home made things. Surely the answer is to avoid antibiotics unless the infection is life threatening. What was in the rest of the diet of the people? I'm sure that people have individual needs and apparently some people have guts that are more easily colonised by the wrong things than others), and that individualized therapy makes sense, but who decided that their original set of gut bacteria was ideal - perhaps it wasn't? It's very likely that most probiotic capsules don't contain everything we need (the one used had only 11 strains, mostly Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium) and what we really need is to eat foods that encourage the right balance in the microbiome. Only 15 subjects ... apart from the mice.
Sadly my antibiotics were very necessary as had a boil on same side of my body where lymph nodes removed as had cancer so even doctor said to put up with any side effects as it was important to have the strongest ones around and even with those it took so long to deal with it.
I agree. Drawing consulsions from 15 subjects? I work in consumer research and anything below 100 is statistically insignificant for us. And I also had a feeling of pharma perhaps going ‘oh no, people are starting to get better on fermented cabbage and milk, quick better tell them it’s useless’
It is that easy. Been making it for nearly 20 years. If grains are dehydrated they take a few milk changes to recover and are very fizzy and not too nice. Frozen grains are usually fine from the off. You need real grains (not a "starter pack" - these are usually not real live grains, but dehydrated ground dust) - things that look like the white bits of cauliflower. Ebay is a good source usually. It should just look like milk, perhaps a bit separated, but if you pour it, the sides of the jar have tiny specs of white on them and make patterns like the Nile delta - it should not be thick like yoghurt
Thank you, having read that through it doesn’t sound like mine at all. My pelvic floor could do with attention though, if only I could remember to do the exercises.
the gut health doctor who has a PHD in gut health did a good response to this article on her instagram, and linked to other studies, she agreed probiotics not a cure all or proven to help with certain illnesses, but has benefit for specific ailments
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