I was an athlete and exercised intensely 5-6 days a week for 20 years before getting Hashimoto's 7 years ago. So I know well what is normal soreness and duration after a hard workout. The first "muscle symptoms" I noticed came a couple of years after my diagnosis. It came in the form of hip/knee stiffness. At first I thought I wasn't warming up enough, or that it was my new sedentary career (which I'm sure didn't help). I know now that "stiffness" was residual soreness from previous activity. I added an long warm-up before every workout only to be stiff again the next day. Normally, 3 days after I did squats my leg soreness would be gone. Little by little over the last 3-4 years this soreness has gotten worse. This happens to other muscles too, i'm just using squats here as this one affects me the most. Any muscle I work has this issue, but the hamstrings, deep calf muscle soleus, and my lat muscles cause me the most discomfort. I get EXTREME MUSCLE SORENESS for 6-9 days now......i forgot to mention I would get sever muscle spasms/cramps just by flexing a muscle.
I've tried massage and I've done the TENS unit electric stimulation. They only help cover the pain for an hour or 2. And deep tissue massage in those areas of your soreness will cause you to scream/cry. I even took 6-months off and only did swimming.....but the moment I lifted weights or tried to do hill sprints again it came back. I've read that Hashimoto sufferers muscles change from Type II (fast twitch) to Type I (slow twitch), I think that that is the result of us not being able to do intense exercise without encountering either an injury or the extreme soreness which trains us with pain to back off. Others claim it is a cellular issue. Probably it's both. I'm still fighting it. But muscle strains are also very easy to get with this problem in addition to constantly being extremely sore.
I now get extreme soreness after doing a few sets of squats that lasts anywhere from 6-9 days. My muscle fibers get torn worse than a healthy persons and they recover much slower. For someone who can't relate, think back to a time when you took 6-months off from the gym and then one day hit the weights hard. It is like the worst soreness you've ever felt that hits you 2 days after the exercise (DOMS), except this lasts at least a week or more and can hit me by that same evening. I believe the autoimmune Hashimoto's is acting on my muscles as well, somehow my cells are not getting what they need, there must be inflammation. I once saw after sitting in a hard chair a line of bruising where the chair had pressed on the back of my legs during that soreness period which shows me that I have internal bleeding inflammation that is going on after exercise (much more than normal). ****The muscle fibers are being torn down worse then normal and they are recovering slower than normal****
I take 5g of creatine monohydrate powder daily, which seems to help a tiny bit (might just be my imagination), at least with the joint stiffness. I listen to my body and if an area is still sore/stiff I wait until it's not before doing that exercise again. I swim 3 days a week to fill in the cracks. I'm still looking for a solution, I don't have med insurance at the moment so I'm limited as to what I can experiment with. I walk as well, but even walking leaves me with sore achilles tendons. I've taken L-cartinine (both types), selenium, vit-D, magnesium, etc.....nothing helps with the muscle soreness/stiffness.
I take 75 mcg of Liothyronine (T3) daily. I don't take any T4 since 7 months ago. I'm thinking about trying the AIP diet to see if that helps with inflammation, also thinking about taking a little T3 right before I go to the gym to see if it helps.
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Thanks for the idea Mostew but it's not an exercise problem, I'm already doing 80% less than I used to. It's an illness issue of some type. I am looking for a cure not a life relegated to exercises limited to walking and yoga. I don't need to be the exercise fanatic that I was, but I do want to be as active as I want to be, when I want to be, pain free.
It’s possible that you have arthritis. I use to be just like you exercise work horse I would do cross fit, marathons, lift weights you name I did it until psoriatic arthritis reared its ugly stupid head and destroyed my health. .... my PSA attacks my tendons in knees, hip and feet occasionally hands.
I should get tested again, though I remember that I didn't test positive for some Rheumatoid blood test (lost the results). My tendons are shot too! I wake up with super sore achilles tendons every morning despite not having used them much. I get tendonitis very easily. I think there might be some biological meds that help with that....probably super hard to get it approved for your use though.
I just read an article in "The Beet" online magazine "This 57-year-old athlete cured her Hashimoto's on a vegan diet and wins first place."
I don't have Hashimoto's but I was a marathon runner prior to having a thyroidectomy. I'm currently walking 4 miles a day and experimenting with a vegan diet with a goal to start running competitively again. Not trying to win a gold medal but I'd like to run half marathons in some of the countries that I travel to. I might have to lower my expectations to a 5k however. I ran an 8k in Beirut a couple of years ago and a half marathon in Havana, Cuba.
I recommend doing speed work, but if your like me you can't do sprints too long before you tear/strain something. I loved doing track workouts and hill sprints. Creatine Monohydrate powder might help a little.....very little.
Hey Dk123, I took T4 alone for about 3 years, then I added 5-20 mcg of T3 to the regimen about the same time these symptoms got worse. Took then both probably for 1.5 years. Then went on T3 alone. I don't think these med's are helping my muscle joint issues, but T3 alone seems to help with fatigue.
Have you tested your T3 levels? My tolerance to exercise disappeared when my T3 levels fell below an optimal range, which was the result of my thyroxine/T4 levels being reduced. Then came the aches and pains and injury after exercise. I'd suddenly crash and it would take me several days to recover.
I don't have any experience with a T3 regimen but I do know that when I tried a T4/T3 combo that I had to really compensate with more T3 for the loss of T4. Honestly, I couldn't figure that part out. It's possible that 75 mcg may not be enough for you. Vigorous exercise on top of inadequate T3 in your body won't feel great. Maybe figure out your bodies T3 needs first and keep your exercise to walking, as much as you don't want to hear that.
My boyfriend also has hypo and he used to be an extreme weightlifter and runner. His T3 levels have been inadequate and he can't keep up or recover. Also, when my levels were still low I suffered from inflammation due to fluid.
Hey jrbarnes, that's a good idea (experiment with taking more T3). I tried taking 100 mcg but I felt the same......perhaps I should take 75 in the morning and try 25 mcg in the afternoon when I usually do my exercise. I'm 186 cm (6'1") in height and currently 102 kg (224 lbs) body weight....been eating bad diet for about 7 months since the covid garbage started. My point is I'm not a small guy so maybe i need to take more based on my body weight.
I'm going to get insurance in January so I should be able to start testing things then. The problem is I was a VERY active person and I still do what I can (very limited) so when i go to the Dr. they look at me and think I'm doing great for a "normal healthy" person, they judge my appearance but they don't know the pain and symptoms I suffer, I know well the symptoms because I know very well what I've lost (pre-Hashi's I pushed self near my limits for many years). Including memory issues, and irritability.
I'm assuming your BF is Hashi's too? Many people know they are Hypo but don't realize they have Hashi's like my Mother....who went 30 years before finding out.
Food is one of my stressed-out go-to's so the thought of the AIP diet is tough. I'm going to try it though. Have you done any special diets?
I'm on a T4/T3 combo and I split the T3 doses two to three times daily but I only take a small amount.
My bf must have hashis because he's tired all the time and his mother had Graves disease. He's also 6'2 and around 220 and has been eating poorly. I lecture him all the time that a 20-40 lb weight gain will require higher amounts of Levothyroxine. I'm the only one in my family with thyroid problems and had a partial thyroidectomy due to a golf ball sized growth when I was 27. Had fatigue for a decade before I even knew.
I have insurance but when I feel like getting tested on my own I go online and order. The cash price is pretty cheap for a T3 test if you're in the US. You already know that your T4 and TSH will be super low so no reason to test that.
None of my Drs have ever used the word Hashi but they've called it autimmune. I'm only 100lbs at 5'1 so I get the same assumption that I'm healthy. At my worst the only weight I gained from hypo was 10 lb of fluid.
For the past three years I didn't realize all my hypo symptoms were due to low T3 levels. I'd been on Levothyroxine successfully for years, however I had to be over the reference range of T4 to feel normal and when my T4 levels dropped so did my T3. Irritable, memory problems, couldn't think, peripheral neuropathy, carpal tunnel, aches and pains, muscle weakness, toe pain and the list goes on. Lots of suffering.
I never diet and don't refrain from indulging every once in awhile. I always eat breakfast like oats or eggs with a banana, lunch and dinner come on schedule. You eat on schedule, breakfast, snack, lunch, dinner. Your body knows food is coming and I swear this keeps weight stable. The concept is to eat well most of the time, therefore it's more of a lifestyle and easier to stick to. I know going gluten free makes me feel better but it's so difficult. I did it for a year about nine years ago and at the end of the year I'd lost 10 lbs and felt good. Low T3 levels kill my appetite so I struggle to get enough calories.
Might be worth a try for him to take T3 only as I'm doing. I was up to 200 mcg a day and it didn't help fatigue or my muscle issues. T3 alone is what I'm sticking with for now because it helps my fatigue much more than T4 did.....but doesn't help with the muscle pain-soreness-stiffness and easy come injuries. I don't look bad for my weight, but I would love to get down under 200 lbs again someday. But I can't do the intense cardio {HIIT} I used to, hill sprints and track sprints mainly.....because I will strain a muscle or get tendonitis almost instantly.
I'm sorry about your fatigue. I knew it well. You do something easy and then you need to rest. Ok, I will look for testing of my T3 by mail once I get settled. I just moved.
Are you feeling better on your T3 now? (as far as fatigue goes)
Yes, the Dr's need to listen to us better and know that the symptoms we suffer and report are just as important as our blood tests. Nobody knows us better than us. They need to be researchers (as we are) not just prescription writers......but unfortunately they would rather just collect their fees, tell us to up our thyroid dose and call it a day without using their brains. Their job is to look for cures, not tell us their is no cure......they need to be busy out their trying to find it. There is always a cure.......except for death, we all have an appointment for that.
I feel your suffering in more ways than just empathy.
I haven't been able to exercise in 10 months but hopefully in the future. I try to go for long walks in the sun on my good days.
As far as the T3 on top on my T4 I'm not sure how it makes me feel. I know I need it badly. I filled a script for it a few days ago and the potency feels weaker than the previous bottles I filled. I took double what I usually take and still tired. My T4 is too low right now so it's a double wammy. My T4 has to be high to get rid of all the body pain. It's like T4 and T3 both have their place.
Hmmm....I actually actually had more fatigue problems with T4 (not worse than taking no med's but pretty bad at times). Every time I check the price for T3 goes up, they are really gouging us. When i was on 200 mcg of T4 I still had all the stiffness soreness etc.... I Hope you get to where you can at least do light exercise soon.
I agree just get the T3 test. Doing it privately without seeing a doctor is pretty cheap. Waiting to January is too long. If you see a good deal via Medichecks etc I'd get a fuller panel of tests including vitamins if you can. B12 D iron etc
You know that is a good question, I haven't signed up yet or gotten grilled about my health. It's tempting to lie about it, but then I feel guilty and have a dilemma.....but on the other hand I feel like it's none of their business and don't have a right to ask me. The plan I was looking at already costs $450 usd a month!!!
you never know what kind of background checks they do. You will prob invalidate your policy if you lie, especially with all the stuff you have posted up on this site!
LoL, yeah and if they can see what prescriptions I've filled they would know as well. Honesty is the best policy, I think they shouldn't be allowed to know anything about us. It's between us and and our physician's. Otherwise scrap all the insurance companies thereby creating competition and use a cash based health care system. We would see prices go down like mad.
How did you get your GP to prescribe T3! Mine thinks he has to hold up a crucifix or a garlic clove if I say 'T3'!! I had to buy my own to get past him.
I have good luck with my Dr's. I can almost just tell them what I want to take and what dose I want to try. I think they get shocked at how proactive I am. I pay $100 to see an Endocrinologist because i don't have insurance. Haven't had labs in over a year. But honestly symptoms seem to be a better guage.
Yeah, I was in California, now I'm in Utah. Though the last 6 years I was living in Colombia, South America where they don't even have T3.....I had to take trips to the U.S. to get it. Maybe my technique of paying cash for a non-insured appointment to a Dr. of your choice to get you started on T3 my get your foot in the door. Then after feeling better (hopefully) your regular Insurance covered Dr might relent since it is harder for them to take away something good that is working for you, than it is for them to never allow you to start something new.
I feel your pain, or I used to. I am Hashi and on T4 only. Whenever I do a private blood test my inflammation markers are always slightly elevated (not enough to concern GP) as I'm always in a state of muscle repair! I am not a good T4/T3 convertor
I do powerlifting so obviously train squats, deadlift and bench with accessories such as military overhead press etc.
My legs can really suffer and I used to have horrible IT band pain. DOMS that would make walking downstairs a dangerous manoeuvre etc.!
I have very tight leg muscles since becoming hypothyroid. I used to be able to squat/sit on my heels but now my knees will not allow this, they physically won't bend to that angle and I have to put a cushion on my heels and sit on that!
My hip flexors are a joke they are so stiff. The psoas stretch is a good exercise for hips and lower back stiffness.
The only thing that helps was to make sure I'm properly hydrated (by using a reminder/logging app) and doing dynamic stretches warmups before lifting (leg swings, walking lunges, open-shut leg gate etc.) and static stretches after lifting (quad stretch, kneeling lunge stretch, hamstrings, cossack stretch etc.)
But the game changer for me was turmeric. The difference was startling in around 3 weeks, I couldn't believe it! I take this vitabright.co/products/orga.... The turmeric must be taken in sufficient quantity and with black pepper as that what makes its bioavailability. But do check you don't have any contraindications.
I feel your pain too, in the morning I can barely get my socks on. I loosen up a little over the day. I've found stretching only helps me for that moment and I can't spend hours stretching every day, i would be too exhausted to do exercises....hahaha
I can do the exercises you mentioned if I only do them 1x per week and if I warm up a ton. Squats, Walking Lunges, and Power Cleans.....but I will be incredibly sore for 6 +/- days afterwards.
I will try your idea of Turmeric ( I used to take it in the mornings but haven't for the last 2 years or so). It's worth another shot. That's cool that your's has Ginger in it. I will check that out. Funny you mention your Thumper, I was recently looking at massage guns like this one: thekrazycouponlady.com/2020...
I don't have any recent bloods as I haven't had insurance for 7 years. I did take some in Colombia, South America when I was living down there, but they are packed away somewhere. I know I need to work on staying hydrated and work on getting good consistent sleep as well.
Hang in there. All we can do is our best with this damn condition. Winter is pretty grim with the cold as well. I used to love a sauna and got benefit from doing the hot sauna/cold shower cycles ......but the sauna is closed since March. Grrrrrr!
Yeah, I just moved to Salt Lake City, Utah and am pretty nervous to see what winter will bring. They are also talking about getting more strict again on masks and closures. We should all just get in a line and take the virus, if we get sick we go to the hospital, if not we go home and live as normal. Living like this is worse than their solutions....... 99.9% of the people who die from this are those who are at deaths door already, the old who are already sick. The covid death numbers are probably 50% of what they are reporting since almost every elderly who dies for whatever reason (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, pneumonia, etc....) is being listed as a covid death if they test positive. Governments are using fear to take away our freedoms and assert more control over us. Just my 2 cents.
I completely agree with what you say wsenior. But we are not allowed discussion on things that veer into the political realm on this site, for good reason, it could get very nasty!
We need to try and be our physical and mental best in these trying times and we are blocked from being able to by restrictions on hormonal replacement that will make us well. So for many it falls on ourselves to be a bit devious in going about it. I don't bother with trying to track down T3 (although my levels could be better as a slow converter) I do sort of plod on OK and my heart goes out to those who so desperately need it and have to jump through hoops and buy off the 'net from places afar or literally beg their endos, to no avail because of the "rules" and some are humiliated in the process.
I agree, and I have enough problems to deal with, I don't need to add political/ethical debates on top. I would say if someone is have an issue with a Dr. not prescribing T3 an easy way around that is to go to another Dr. and pay for a cash appointment (non-insured appointment). Once you get your foot in the door and are taking T3 your insurance Dr. will most likely get on board. Saying you feel better on it is a strong argument (and they can see that you didn't grow a second head). I only know this because I haven't had insurance for 10 years....forced to go the cash route. My problem is I can't afford any labs to rule out other possible issues with my muscles.
Yes it could be about control or is it a cover up for all the cheaper medication they have been putting out especially Levothyroxine the only medication I was on was Levothyroxine Mercury pharma brand had been on this brand for as long as I can remember then my pharmacy gave me Teva new formulation and my health was turned upside down and I was very fit before being switched I have hair loss nerve pain just a few of the many health issues I have now this was in 2018 and my doctor said it’s the government to blame go to a lawyer and he couldn’t tell us what it was that has happened to us as his hands were tied couldn’t get antibody test had to go private this was six months after being given this Teva and my anti body’s were nearly 4000 my daughter was the same the doctor says he doesn’t know when wee will get back to normal if ever the world health organisation has now put out a list of Levothyroxine that’s not interchangeable and Teva is one of them Ireland has put this out but so far I don’t se anything for Scotland or England to warn health professionals about this myself and daughter probably now have hashimotos I ended up taking a heart attack as my heart had been racing for over a year and didn’t get to see a cardiologist till after I had the heart attack.
Hey Buzcat, sorry to hear about your broken heart. I hope you never have to face that again. I get suspicious too about the filler they use with the thyroid medications. I'm hoping they come up with a biological med soon that will send us into remission. T3 Liothyronine's prices have gone up 1000%+ in the last few years. Price gouging. Makes me want to start my own compound pharmacy.
I have some turmeric and curcmin supplements in my pantry but I've yet to use them for more than a few days at a time. So you say three weeks is when you noticed the positive effects?
Yes you need to stick with it. Check the label that they have the black pepper too. It's the piperine in the black pepper that increases bioavailability and enhances the effect of the curcumin.
Some say it takes between 2-8 weeks to notice a difference and if it's going to help. My iliotibial bands on my outer thighs were so sore with surrounding inflammation before taking the capsules, I could barely touch them. The difference was quite profound.
* * So to be clear, you attribute the drastic positive change from inflammation pain and soreness to feeling good/normal to your use of Turmeric and Black Pepper??
To be honest, I cannot attribute it to anything else. The discomfort was pretty long standing, my GP just shrugged and fobbed me off with a "What do you expect at your age? (62) and lifting heavy weights".
For it to suddenly disappear was quite startling for me. Of course you can never say this effect will happen to everybody but there is strong clinical evidence...
Yes, I can't stand Dr's who give up on us. I do think there are many symptoms that aren't addressed by taking T3 and T4. The autoimmune action in our body affects more than the thyroid. I think it affects every cell in our body.
WOw! Cool articles, I'm going to read them now. I need to start doing ice baths too. I tried LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone) but didn't notice anything when i took it. I plan to order my Turmeric today.
What time of day do you take the turmeric? I bought some capsules but found out about three hours after taking I needed about an hour nap. It was very strange.
hey spongecat, it’s inspiring to hear of the difference it made for you. can i ask how much you take? Wolfiesmom08 just want to add that turmeric also needs to be taken with fat for proper absorption - that is why you’ll find its always used in fatty dishes traditionally.
i’ve only taken casually in cooking and teas but am considering trying higher doses as i have the same debilitating fatigue/muscle aches after being active and am very unhappy with how much i’ve had to decrease my level of activity as a result.
Hi. The turmeric I take is 2 capsules, a serving that contains:
Organic Turmeric (curcuma longa ) 1260mg
Organic Ginger 100mg
Organic Black Pepper Powder 20mg
I didn't know that fat helps absorption, I thought the pepper saw to the that. Mind you I usually swig them down with milk kefir so there are fats in that along with my meals. I also take the Vit D and Vit K2 and magnesium like this too.
thanks! i’ve made note of that to try if drastically upping my intake of chopped fresh turmeric and homemade turmeric spice for a few weeks doesn’t do it - im more comfortable with foods than supplements so going to give that a proper try first.
yup they both are needed for best absorption - turmeric is not water soluble so needs fat to be absorbed. the piperine greatly increases bioavailability of the curcumin and helps it to be a lot more effective / better absorbed that way.
"The most reliable study on the subject used a 2,000 mg dosage of curcumin to a 20 mg dose of piperine. This ratio of turmeric to black pepper resolves to 100:1"
Just found this quote.
Can I just buy a tub of Turmeric Powder and a tub of Black Pepper? or does it have to be BioPerine?
get checked for PMR? I had hashimotos and then developed PMR, gradually but then all of a sudden it sorsened so I could not even get out of bed or rollover in bed! Its the autoimmune bit rather than the thyroid bit. They go on your ESR and CRP levels but for some it is only sytoms. The prefer you to be over 50 (or even over 70!).. but some are a young as 45
Wow, I've never heard of PMR, looking it up now. I remember getting my C-reactive protein checked and I don't think I had an issue, hard to recall. Need to put that on the list of things to check once I get insurance. Thanks Jan.
poly myalgia rheumatica. It is treated with prednisone..longterm usually one year to 8 years! .. but if it gets bad enough you do it. I think I had symptoms gradually increasing for twenty years, but then I could tnt sit up or get out of bed.or even roll over on bed. I felt like I had woken up in the wrong body every morning..like I was in the body of someone being tortured in the game of thrones(which I had just watched at the time)..took a long tome to feel almost myself again. I've been on pred now for 4 years...still on thryoid meds but with pred I n longer need T3, just T4 meds and I had to reduce a little (about 10%). Hope its not, and some can just (I believe but its not a known) keep on with low levels of pain for years and keep on top of it ..but for some it gets so bad..and that getting so bad is all of a sudden. (unless I have something else as well)!
edit BTW Tumeric and peepr and oil didn't work for me. For some it increases the inflammation. I still use pepper and/or tiumeric in cooking though, but I gave up on taking it as a medication.
You woke up feeling like Theon Greyjoy it sounds like ; )
I tested negative for the C-Reactive protein I think but that doesn't mean i don't have this. It's mostly found in women but heck Hashimoto's is mostly found in women and I have that.
I find ESR moves up higher for me. Currently 22, but CRP is only 4.(still higher than <1 which it was when I felt good!.. but in "normal" range.. which obviously includes those I'm pain!)
Exercise burns off T3 faster then normal, so you might be lowering it too much by your regime for your body at this time.
Myself, I am severely undermedicated atm due to having to ration my tiny supply till my specialist appointment in December. Any exercise no matter how little (even having a shower or getting up to get a glass of water, exhausts me and leaves my muscles twitching and aching constantly.
hey overrunbykids (great name lol), have you tried magnesium for the twitching? mag doesn’t help me with muscle aches personally but it helps most people tremendously with things like muscle twitching, cramping, etc
for cramps- magnesium and some calc with magnesium. you my need to check your potassium is Ok as it is needed for magnesium to get into cells. Note- some types of magnesium and calcium are better than others but all will stop cramps, at least in hundreds of people I know
I always get my Dr. to write me a prescription for a dose higher than I take (I take 75 mcg of T3 daily but my prescription says I take 100 mcg), that way I can stock up a little on the med's. I always get a 3 or 6 month supply as well if I can. T3's price has been going up for the last 3+ years, before that it was dirt cheap and I have to pay cash. New owners are price gouging. That reminds me of symptoms that I didn't mention, I would also get muscle spasms/cramps at times.....sometimes just by flexing a muscle.
I never had/do not have Hashimoto’s issues but, in 2012, I lost my thyroid to cancer. I work out via cardio, strength training, spin cycling, yoga, interval walk/run). Since the TT, I noticed very similar issues to your description. I attribute it to lack of human thyroid hormone. I do feel better and see great improvement using Desiccated thyroid (Pharmaceutical grade porcine derived T4/T3). I am very cognizant of where my levels are suppose to be for me. I split my dose AM and mid-afternoon PM. By improvement I mean I have the energy to work out, can get through most days w/ crashing, but I still notice longer time of soreness and greater inflexibility.
the pigs thryoid hormone seems to work well for folk like you who don't have Hashimotos.For me and other with hashimotos, despite trying it for way too long (over a decade) , it just made things worse! it was thought to be due to the pig interfering with our immune system. It seemed to happen with pigs insulin with diabetes too ..
Me or the original poster? Yesterday i did a 5 mile hike. I just finished vacuuming stairs, carpets, swept floors, did laundry. Now exhausted. Laying here. Dosing off. Have to cook and go out to help an incapacitated friend Later. This is my day off
I can completely relate to this. I was fine and then about 6 years ago after not having exercised for a while, I jumped straight back into it and did too much exercise and ended up with medial tibial stress syndrome. This was also after a stressful life event. On top of that my lovely GP lowered by Levo because she saw my TSH getting lower. I was in pain for months and I couldnt walk properly for a very long time without pain let alone exercise. It really made me very depressed as exercise was my life. It tends to be the keen exercisers who often get into this mess as we use up a lot of energy.
It took a trial and error, a lot of rest, change of diet, change of medication, supplementation with magnesium and basically lots of time to get back to where I am today. I am not 100% but much much better. I was also diagnosed with CFS by my GP. The NHS just put you on graded exercise therapy which is useless but having that diagnosis is what led me to the next phase in my research. What helped most? Reading and following Dr Sarah Myhill's book on CFS. Taking d-ribose and acetyl l carnitine and a few other supplements for a few months which she recommends. Yes I also tried creatine mono. Plus following a lower carb diet, she recommends keto. Keto isn't good for women because need carbs for our hormone cycle. However, might not be an issue for you, although the long term effects are to be seen. I'm not convinced as people tend to end up eating less fibre which isn't good for the gut microbiome. The other thing that helped was following The Gut Health Protocol by John Herron. This was life changing for me in terms of energy levels. I don't know how, maybe it's the way in which it tackles SIBO. Yep another thing I had which is better. It was a multi-pronged approach.
It's basically having enough energy at the cellular level. Plus having your FT4 and FT3 in the upper third of the range.
I'm always reassured to find someone else who was on Levo who curiously 'got CFS' when blood results prompted a lower dose of Levo. ie "TSH and FT4 say you've got enough T4 , and we don't (want to) know about T3"
Me too, then got sent off to see the CFS clinic.
I wish doctors had tried harder to get ft3 nearer top of range and looked at diet.
I spent 15 yrs thinking my thyroid hormones are not responsible for my crashing after exercise/physical work, and i must have cfs, even though i don't have the other classic cfs symptoms like sore throat etc,..... just the muscle and brain crash after exertion.
It always seems to be using my big muscles intensely (like thighs and bum) that have the most pronounced effect .
I've learned to do things in very short bursts to avoid it happening as much , but never managed to stop it completely. And Adrenaline ? from things like arguments' /confrontation does also seem to cause a similar 'crash'
T3 Monotherapy helped me with my fatigue (though still not where it should be), T4 helped for my fatigue much less and gave me a feeling of being saturated somehow....can't really explain it.
I tried Keto, never actually got into ketosis before i started feeling hypoglycemia. I seem to feel better energy wise with carbs. Maybe I didn't give it long enough. I would like to rid myself of the spare tire, but I hesitant to try keto again....though I am willing. I know if women go too low body fat they lose their period.....probably similar hormonal effects for women past menopause as well. Diet is the hardest thing for me as it is my stress go-to....binge eating large quantities of whatever, tacos, cookies, candy, cheese.....lol. You are right I need to get my diet squared away, not to mention my sleep and my hydration.
I understand your pain. Start with the basics first. Not everybody needs to do keto nor likes it. A lot of people like and get on better with a carb heavy diet. It all depends.
So what are your stress levels really like? Remember stress can be physical, emotional, chemical and environmental. Some we can influence and others not so much. If you say you have a spare tire that sounds like you're stressed as cortisol makes us store belly fat around our tummy. Do you eat in a rush or slowly and mindfully? Digestion actually begins in the brain. Whats your water intake like? Do you eat when you're stressed? Does eating cause gas? Bloating? Constipation? If your digestion isn't good look into that. Do certain foods cause symptoms? Are you tired after meals? This is a sign that your digestion needs to improve and hypos are commonly low on stomach acid which affects the whole chain of digestion - digestive enzymes from the pancreas and bile etc. This can be easily remedied with HCL and Pepsin supplementation. Some people like apple cider vinegar with meals. Gut health is key to everything. The body can only do one thing at a time - rest and digest or be in a state of fight or flight. If it's in a stressed state (Sympathetic nervous system) it can't digest your food through the Parasympathetic nervous system.
You need to eat enough but ask yourself why are you gorging on certain foods? Boredom? Stress? Are you having too much caffeine? When do you have caffeine? Close to bed time is not helpful.
Do you go outside for fresh air and light? We all need sunlight exposure first thing in the morning for our circadian rhythm which yes you guessed it, affects stress! Light influences cortisol levels. We need good natural light and less of the harmful blue light. We also need enough cortisol during the morning and day and less at night to enable melatonin levels to rise so we can sleep.
How is your sleep? Do you go to sleep on time? Are you watching TV or checking your phone late into the night? This can affect melatonin production and affect your stress hormones preventing good quality sleep.
Start with small steps first and take it from there. Good luck!
Sleep: Irregular and usually around midnight at times later. If I'm home I'm on my computer.
Stress: Highly stressed all the time. Looking to start counseling but everyone is doing virtual right now and that's not as personal and intimate.
Eating: I binge eat at times, always saying it's just for that day. It's amazing that i don't weigh more than I do. I'm 6'1" and 223 lbs (186 cm and 102 kilos). I'm not too fat, but I know where I'd like to be. Mindful eating without the urgency is needed as you mention.
Hydration: I go long periods without water and then drink a huge one trying to make up for it. Sometimes I forget to drink something with my meals. I do drink coffee a couple times a day since I do most of my work at a coffee shop (I work online).
If you can’t get off your computer try some blue light blocking glasses. Bear in mind these wont block all the blue light and staying up post 10.30 has a significant effect on your circadian rhythm.
Do you have friends you can speak or socialise with? I know it’s very hard at the moment and we want to avoid computers at night but they are a lifeline at the moment. How about a Zoom call with friends? Do you have any relaxing hobbies? What do you do for downtime? Might seem funny but adult colouring books are very therapeutic.
If you’re an IT professional try to do something which doesn’t involve a computer or phone to relax.
Aim to drink most of your water in between meals. You don’t want to dilute your gastric juices. Try and get into the habit of drinking water as soon as you wake up. Warm water with lemon stimulates digestion and helps the liver too.
I tried AIP and it’s very tough and I didn’t last longer than 10 days. Some people stay on it for years which isn’t good as you can lose immune tolerance to foods which is hard to recover from. However at the end of the day you have to have good digestive fire whatever you eat.
Have you had any stressful life events other than the inability to exercise? Work on dealing with those if you want to truly heal. If you have something knawing away at you it’ll be hard to recover and get back to normal. If you need lifestyle and nutrition advice, a good nutritional therapist/functional medicine practitioner can really help depending on what’s really going on. I think you’re in the US so there’s lot of FM practitioners and doctors there.
Yes, I would like to start reading and praying. Probably a good thing to do before sleep. My work, my entertainment, my news, is all on the computer. Thanks for the advice on the water. My wife recommends the water+lemon too. I also just joined a support group which is better than nothing (I prefer counseling...in person is not available at this time), and I've started attending a church. Yeah, not sure how I will keep to AIP. Stress yes, very high all the time I would say. I need to force self to sleep earlier. All good advice, now I need to follow through : )
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Good look and sure hope you feel better soon. Sending virtual hug from a fellow sufferer
P.S. My Son has always been into weightlifting etc and won Competitions.....Always healthy foods (with exception of chocolate and milk), when not 'competition time), lots of pasta, chicken, fish fruit And Always 'Expensive' protein shakes...6ft 1 - Very broad shoulders, huge biceps, triceps etc etc but no spare fat - 32 waist, XL Chest size
So I have Hashimotos. I am a Personal Trainer/Exercise Additict, Sports Massage and have a degree in Nutrition (studied sport exercise at Uni as well). I avoid certain inflammatory foods too. Basically, I am crazy into health and exercise.
The exercise is not the problem. Exercise will help in most instances. Example, cardio has shown to alleviate Fibromyalgia (sp?) which seems counter intuitive.
I've had similar issues with DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) lasting for a week and tarting hours after exercise. I'm 45 years old to add to the mix. I take a combination of T4/T3. My exercise performance is better with T3. I had to take T4 only during most of the lockdown because there was a delay in my T3 shipment. Not good! Lost so much of my power output on my bike. When I got my T3 back after 4 weeks without, my power output was the same as a complete beginner as if I hadn't trained in years. The same with any strength training. I would be in agony for a week if I didn't go crazy super insanely gently, gently. Though I was never as bad as you describe.
I agree with your thinking in regards to the inflammation and diet. It sounds to me that you are so inflamed before you start exercising that your body can't cope with the normal inflammation caused by the exercise which your body would usually recover and adapt. If you are too inflamed, massage and foam rolling will only add to the problem by retearing/reinflaming all of the microtears in your muscles. In this case, you need to stick only to stretching until the pain is mostly gone. Then you can foam roll or have a massage.
In regards to your T3 only regime, T3 has a half life of around 2-3 hours, if I remember correctly. This means most of the dosage is used up, denatured, in that time. Just imagine working a job where you need so many workers to do a job and then half of them went home but work still needs doing with no replacements to come in and pick up the work load. If you have no T4 to convert into T3 for your new replacement T3 workers, it's like having no replacement workers on the job site (your body). BUT, you can't take another dose until the other half have gone, otherwise you will have too many workers on site.
So you have to make sure there is T4 somewhere to convert to T3. E.g. Is your body making it or do you need to take some? And make sure that you are nutritionally able to make these conversions. Iron is a biggie here for T3 conversion and generally in exercise health. Nutritional status is constantly discussed on here. So I won't go into all that. You should find out your nutritional numbers. Bruising is a sign of inadiquate vitamin C levels which is another important nutrient forHashimoto's or inflammatory health issues. Though, not hundred percent sure about your bruising after sitting for long period.
hey there thought your message was really helpful just wanted to clarify that t3 has a half-life of about 24 hours (can be longer or shorter for different individuals) but peaks in about 2.5 hours. so it does start to go down again after that long and i think your point probably still stands
Sorry about that, I must have been getting the peak mixed up with the half life and went off on a tangent. Then family were needing me.Mostly, that was my second thought abou your issues.
As you suggested, I think more of you problem is with chronic inflammation probably from things in, and not in, your diet. And recovery for us is very different if we have excessive inflammation hence my recommendations to delay foam rolling and massage, adjust your diet, and get blood tests for nutritional status.
I started with AIP too. Now, I still eat oats, rice and potatoes, and minimally some other alternative grains and some beans, but I definitely avoid gluten and dairy. Those two absolutely cause me major issues.
Once you have been on the AIP for at least six months and feel amazing, you can bring back a single food to try a couple of weeks. The pain in any joints should go before you try adding foods back in. Pay close attention when you do for any symptoms. Joint pain is obvious, but you could get anything like a subtlety runny nose or phlegm in throat. Don't ignore any symptoms. Avoid the food again for a while. Then try it again and see if the specific symptom you had returns.
Hope you find your solution and it's nothing sinister.
You have motivated me to start AIP, at worst it can't hurt, at best it will greatly improve my life. Yeah, I think I would still need oats, rice, lentils, and potatoes on some level. Gluten Sugar and Dairy will be missed. Thanks so much for your reply I hope i can come back on here in 6-months and bring good news!!
Hey Regina, thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I'm 46 soon to be 47 so no spring chicken. I agree I think it is an inflammation issue for me, I need to try a AIP diet....but my willpower with food is very low, unlike my discipline and enjoyment with exercise. I will try taking another hit of T3 before lunch and see if that helps. Not sure how long I would need to do that to see some kind of difference. So many what-ifs and factors going on that it's hard to see what was helping and what might be hurting. Most of the Dr's gave up on us. I guess I could just focus on the AIP elimination diet first. If I ever get my sleep, hydration, diet, and supplement plans lined up I might be able to make small changes to see what helps and what hurts....but that will require life stability which is difficult for me....my work is freelance and irregular. I need to get my wife here with me (we are working on her visa to come here from Colombia).....or I will move back to Colombia to be with her.
I have already replied to you but would like to add if you are switched to one of the brands that the world organisation has put out you have to be very closely monitored
Like you I have Hashis and came here looking for answers to a similar problem. I also started weightlifting about 2 months ago to try to solve IT band problem, stuff hip joints, stiff knees... the cure for IT band syndrome is squats they say, so I now do plenty of barbell squats. I have to do 15-20 minutes of yoga stretches first as my hips are so stiff I’d never get into a squat otherwise!
I don’t have a massive issue with DOMS. Just joint pain, in my case. Horrible debilitating, grumpy, can’t sleep sort of joint pain. It’s better some days and worse on others.
I don’t know what’s happening, but my joints hurt more than they have done before and I wonder if weightlifting is causing some kind of hashis flare. On the other hand, I’m also getting occasional relief, for the first time. Randomly, the only time I don’t have pain - is for about 30 minutes or more after the gym! It’s as if it is both the cure and the problem all at once and I just don’t understand!
I found that I HAVE to wear knee sleeves when doing barbell squats. Not wraps, the neoprene knee sleeves. Once you have got them on (!) and make sure you get the right size you will find they keep your knee joint lovely and warm and most importantly makes sure that your patella tracks correctly over your foot position and stance. Also felt a whole lot more "secure" and supported and can even get you a little bounce "out of the hole". I will not be without them now for squats and using leg press machine!
It can also be counter-productive if you don't go down deep enough. It's a fallacy that you have to go "ass to the grass" but to try and get down so your femurs are close to parallel with floor. It does come with time, even an old stiff bones like me! If you do half squats it actually puts more shear and stress on the knee joint. It took time and patience for me to get a good squat form, everything hurt at first, even getting my hand/arm position when getting under the bar. I also don't ever train on consecutive days, need to recuperate. I'll swim, walk or jog gently instead!
Lifters unite! Thank you spongecat, I shall investigate! I think form is good - I have a PT as I was so worried about making things worse!
I am going to get an appointment with the GP, for what that is worth... and figure I may need to get a bit stricter with my diet, just to see... the amount of pain just isn’t normal. It’s so reassuring to hear from someone in a similar position; the pain makes me worry I’m making it up or half mad... I’m sure so many of you know what I mean...
When my joints are inflamed the temptation is to not do things that hurt. I would say while we are looking for solutions to keep moving and make sure to keep your range of motion. I know when I'm stiff my knees and hips hurt to move and don't want to be pushed into any healthy range of motion. I do 5 minutes stationary bike, then I do 2-3 sets of free squats (no weight, no bar, arms out in front) x 12 reps each. Between each of those sets I stretch out a little, quads, hamstrings, etc... Then I will do power cleans or deadlifts (deadlifts and power cleans put less stress on my stiff bands, joints, and tendons.....and are a good warm up to my squats). Next up I do my back squats 3-4 set's depending on how I feel, I do 1st set at a decent working weight, then I go heavier for my last 2-3 sets. Next up I go the Adductor/Abductor machines and do 2-3 easy sets on each, this also let's me catch my breath, lastly I go do 2 sets of walking lunges without weight (the most dangerous for me as I can easily strain a groin or other muscle). These lunges require more flexibility than do my squats, but I'm very warmed up by now. Then by 2 hours after my workout I already can feel the DOMS coming on. At best I make small gains, but really it's just muscle memory and a workout schedule for maintenance. It's all I can do until the inflammation goes away.
No it's not a coincidence, I always feel a little better right after a workout, but our pain is numbed and we have created temporary pathways of motion that close up soon after. But we can't spend our lives stretching 24/7 either. When i was healthy i would do hill or track sprints the day after my squat workout because the muscle fibers were more activated after squats. I ran faster!
Thank you for this! I am encouraged to try AIP again too... I only managed a little while before but it it did seem to help... I found it hard to stick to, though, and friends and the hospitality industry got pretty sick of me 😆
Also, thank you for the encouragement to keep on keeping on! I feel like it is an inflammation or T3 issue in my case, but we will see. The help I get from the GP will be limited here in the UK given that they don’t generally test or prescribe T3 and are stingy with the vitamin panels as well!
Unfortunately, ibuprofen is not allowed on the AIP so I try not to take it... but here I am thinking I should be taking shedloads so as not to be in pain... I can’t take this level of pain anymore without doing something. I’m usually pretty stoic but this is a shade more than I can manage, so it’s time to get help!
Meantime, I will keep on lifting, like you. I’ve shortened my sessions and do yoga stretching before and after and plan to go big on over-the-counter pain medication too.
Let us know how you get on. A lot of what you report sounds very familiar, particularly waking up as stiff as a board, etc!
hey jonathan, may i ask how long your wife has been drinking the ACV pre-meals and if she’s found the ACV to have any lasting impacts at this point (reduced need for it over time, etc.)? or does it still help only for the meal she eats right after she drinks it?
Also re the turmeric, you may already know this but in case not: Ive read that long term use of high dose turmeric without breaks can be very hard on the body and cause issues over time, so it’s recommended that breaks be taken. i can’t remember how long breaks were recommended to be, but i want to guess a couple weeks every few months? or maybe not quite that drastic.
Have you gone gluten free? I hear a lot of hashimotos sufferers have trouble with gluten and sometimes dairy and soy
Hey IamWeary, no I haven't gone free of anything as of yet....hahaha.
I need to try Gluten Free, Sugar Free, and maybe Dairy free. I always feel like I'm running non-stop so I eat from stress and do little cooking. I miss my wife....hahaha.
Thanks for the Tips Jonathan, I just screenshot your message so I don't forget things : )
I'm shopping for the Turmeric/Black Pepper now probably order it tomorrow. Man i wish I could have the discipline you have to do that diet. I might try to do something similar. I wonder if that's why (low stomach acid) I do a little better when I drink lemon and water.
Sounds really frustrating, my experience with muscle and joint pain has started since GP lowered my Levo due to too low TSH in her opinion. Since being on 75mcg instead of 100mcg there doesn’t seem to be any recovery just really sore from one workout to the next. Do you think adding T4 would be something to try? Knees and hips are the worst and I do loads of stretching before my CrossFit sessions - I love lifting weights but I’ve had to ease off how much I’m lifting. I may be having a fight with my GP to get back on the 100mcg dose, I felt so good on it and able to exercise without the pain - I hope you find a solution
Your doctor should not be changing your dose on TSH only. I have seen your previous post and your levels are thus...
TSH- 0.05 (0.3-4.5)
T3- 4.8 (3.1-6.9)
T4- 20.3 (10-22)
My T3 is similar to yours...it could be a better level, ideally with the addition of liothyronine but that is like getting blood out of a stone in the UK because it's not an "approved" treatment anymore unless you are prescribed it by an endocrinologist and to get it on the NHS is very rare (otherwise you have a private prescription and what with the price gouging in the UK you could pay a huge amount. This is why many are forced to buy online from abroad through a closely guarded network of approved suppliers).
Even getting to see a sympathetic endo is a bit hit and miss as most major in diabetes so are only really interested in the pancreas and what have you, not the thyroid which they seem to see as more of an annoyance!
You have a T4 level in the upper region, like me. It's just the way we are. Slow convertors of T4 to T3.
You are not over-medicated, if you were over-medicated your T3 would be over-range. Low or suppressed TSH is not over-medication, nor is a higher level of T4.
Definitely follow up SeasideSusie's suggestion of emailing Dionne at tukadmin@thyroiduk.org
to get that Dr Toft paper and highlight question 6.
GP's learn very little about the thyroid and hypothyroidism at medical school, only a few hours and it's generally considered that a little daily pill and a yearly blood test will suffice *rolls eyes*
Sorry to hear about your pain and problems with your Dr. I tried 200 mcg T4 for a year but it didn't help me. I'm glad you felt good, something rare to find amongst this crowd. Many Dr's don't care about us or our symptoms, just the number on your blood panel. I would try and manipulate your blood results through your dosing, if that is your only option in getting your Dr. to adjust your dose....what that requires I don't know. Dr's need to be on our team not act as our adversary.
tumeric in those with autoimmune(liem me) can increase in=flammation ..I think..I kinda forget. I still use it liberally on cooking but no longer take it with pepper and oil. I go well with ginger which I hated but I've learned to tolerate (especially coated in dark chocolate!)
i actually have noticed something along those lines myself - like i felt less well on occasion when increasing how much i use in cooking and teas - but it’s just so hard to pin down what causes what. i’m going to try very drastically upping my turmeric for a few weeks to see what happens - with higher intake hopefully the effect will be more obvious either way
I find when I get that type of pain I am either under medicated or over medicated. Since you are taking 75 mcg T3 (which is equivalent to 225 to 300 mcg T4) I believe you are very over medicated. I'm on 75mcg T4 and 6mcg T3 and I've recently experienced the same type of pain. I also get overall tendon pain (especially in my hips and shoulders) when taking too much thyroid meds. I skipped two doses of T3 and my pain is gone. I'm going to ask for a very slow reduction in thyroid meds so that I'm taking the least amount that still keeps me euthyroid. I also recently had a delerium episode which has happened twice before when my T3 was on the higher end, very scary. Don't EVER want that to happen again.
Armour is made from pig thyroid. If it causes AI issues for you then you would not want to use that either. Desiccated works for people that i know that have HT.
I have the same issue but I don't have Hashimotos. I've had to drop my workouts to a single set ( to positive failure ) per body part and even then I still get bad doms and need at least 6 days for the pain to subside.
Yeah, for me even doing lower reps and higher weight I get super DOMS. I don't go to failure anymore so as not to risk injury. I do 3-10 reps at a higher weight depending on the exercise. I would get DOMS even if I used no weights, just using the muscle tears them up.
Hi, I haven't read through all the comments (there are 80!), but it's possible it may not be thyroid related (I think we tend to blame everything on that).
I used to exercise a lot, and was fitness instructor. Over the last 2 years, I've gradually developed more and more pain in muscles and joints (lower body). I finally got an x ray and I have osteo arthritis, probably caused by overuse. I have treatment plan for this.
I'm just making the point to get things checked with a good GP to see if it's something other than thyroid. All the best.
I was about to suggest the AIP diet, although I'd recommend you do it as part of Izabella Wentz's Hashimotos Protocol (book).
I'm one of those people who every so often tries to take up running, but just can never get past a 3 min stretch at a time. Doing the protocol, my stamina increased really quickly. One week I jumped from 3mins in a block to suddenly managing 10mins, then about 4 weeks later, I could manage 5k (with a couple of mins of walking in the middle).
I suggest the protocol because I can't say whether my stamina was attributable to the diet or the supplements or both. Doing the protocol, you'd need to take 2 weeks off of all exercise for the adrenal phase though.
I think you need to come to terms with possibly never being as active as you were before though - our systems just wear out faster with hashimotos. I found my limit was 3 trips to the gym a week, if I tried to add anything extra (other than walking) the fatigue would start to creep in. A pain, because I struggled to decide how to best use those 3 hours - I ended up doing bootcamp and 2 weightlifting sessions and dropping the running (unfortunately that didn't help me when lockdown hit )
p.s. sorry for the long read, but I wanted to put across my reasoning!
Hi wsenior, read your post with interest as I have Hashimoto's and enjoy being fit and active. Have recently started training with free weights to aid bone density/strength with a trainer and also working closely with a functional health doctor. I am using Creatine Monohydrate powder but also Collagen. My functional health doctor (also an extreme athlete) recommended the collagen but my trainer mentioned that Collagen helped with his muscle elasticity?!?! I have noticed some minor discomfort - we'll see how things progress. If discomfort continues I will be discussing it with trainer/functional health doctor. Will report back if I think anything will be of help. Something that the functional health doctor recommended when he knew I had started working with free weights was blood flow restriction training. I haven't looked into this yet, but this could be the answer! I notice that some people are mentioning a vegan diet. I have gone the other way - paleo. You mention AIP. Have you come across Mickey Trescott?
Hey MacG, I had a thoughtful reply but I forgot to hit the reply button and lost it when I turned off my computer last night....lol. Thanks for your reply. I went and watched video of a weightlifter using BLOOD FLOW RESTRICTION TRAINING, it sounds interesting. I wonder if it will help with the DOMS since I would be lifting lighter weights with this method. I have pain, stiffness, and extreme DOMS after light exercise as well. I am listening to your video no. Sounds like this will help you get more benefits from lifting lighter weights, if you're unable to life heavier weights to improve muscle mass.
This might be useful to me as I can get more benefits from doing less when pain keeps hinders me from being able to work out hard......but my main goal is to find a way to work out normally without the abnormally extreme muscle damage and extreme muscle soreness afterwards. The new capillaries and muscle fibers might help resolve my issue, this definitely worth a try.
Blood flow restriction training. There is a video on Youtube where Dr Mercola explains it. I have been trying to paste the link but it is not allowing me to as every time I press the reply button it seems to want to "embed" the video and it won't work! Any techies out there able to help please??
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Various symptoms.....Hypothyroidism?
Running & Exercise
Any thoughts on my thyroid results 
Rhumetologist / Hashimotos Visit 
Muscle strength/pain
