Muscle Pain, Stiffness, Soreness, Cramps. Hashimoto's Hypothyroid Exercise and Muscles.

[wsenior]

Former Super Physically Active Man - height: 186cm weight: 99kg - age 45

I hope this can help others and I hope your feedback can help me.

My History (Present Day December 2018):

5 years on 100mcg T4 alone.

1.5 years on 100mcg T4 + 25mcg T3.

6 months on 50mcg T3 alone.

Also I'm on low level TRT since 2015 (Nebido or Testoviron)....could be a factor?

* I've read that Testosterone can lower your absorption of Thyroid med's....meaning I needed a higher dose. Not sure about that.

The first few years my only symptom was fatigue and Low-T. Then, about 3 years ago sometime in 2015 new muscle symptoms appeared. For 25+ years I did a ton of intense exercise 5 or 6 days/week: Heavy weightlifting, Pullups, Hill Sprints, Track Sprints, Medicine Ball Drills, etc... Little by little (over the last 3 years +/-) my muscles became stiffer and stiffer, with exaggerated soreness post-exercise. Random Muscle cramps in abdomen, hamstrings, brachioradialis forearms, and pain peppered my daily life. I responded by doing a longer warm up and stretching routine which helped me a little (mainly in avoiding injuries). It continued to get worse and even jogging became torture, it felt like broken glass was in my muscles (calves, soleus, groins, forearms, biceps, and worst of all my hamstrings where blood would pool upon sitting). After weightlifting I would get the worst soreness of my life for 7-10 days afterwards making a routine impossible. Also, my muscle contraction was painful and the relaxation of the muscle was slower than normal.....leading to muscle strains and injuries on top of my pains.

* I've read that we Hypothyroids begin to change muscle fiber types from the Type II Fast Twitch to the Type I Slow Twitch type.

* Also, I've read that Hypothyroids have slower muscle relaxation after contraction (retarded as compared to Euthyroid folks).

Over time, my "warm-up" became my "workout" as it was all I could do to try and preserve mobility and a sense that I was using my body. The only relief was to stop all exercise. Present day, for the last 5 months I found I could do a pool-workout without much pain afterwards......circuits of running/swimming in the shallow portion of the pool. I also think the cold water made my Hashimoto's inflammation less and allowed me a partial reprieve in the water.

Since 2 days ago I am taking 250mcg T4 alone (was on 50mcg T3 alone the last 5-months). This is an experiment to see if my muscle pains, stiffness, exaggerated soreness will go away, to see if this all started because my T4 dose was too low. If it doesn't work, I will be going off all Thyroid to see if it helps.

So far I feel sluggish on T4 and have more emotional swings. I have that crash at around 8 pm that sends me to bed or immobilized on the couch. I did pullups yesterday and will try and do squats today......to see what soreness occurs. I will know the difference between normal soreness and the exaggerated response I had the last few years. The Fatigue and Possible Insulin Resistance is always with me which makes exercise difficult.....but I must complete my experiment.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. My responses will be shorter.

Walter

"Hypothyroid" "Testosterone" "Muscle Pain" "Stiffness" "Muscle Soreness" "Exercise" "Solution" "T3" "T4"

[Peanut31]

Hi wsenior

The more experienced members may be able to help more than me, but, when I saw your post title "muscle pain and stiffness" I had to reply.

I have been plagued with muscle pain and stiffness for a long time, longer than my diagnosis of Hasimoto's and underactive thyroid and I had no idea what it was.

I am a 40 year old female and I was very active at the gym, bodypump, body attack, step, circuit training until my recovery get longer and my muscles always seemed sore and my neck would lock.

My thyroid issue didn't help and I had to cut right back and then stop altogether. I've gone back to the gym but, I don't do all of the above as my body can't take it.

It makes no difference to the pain if I stop the exercise or not.

At the moment I am waiting for my MRI scan results to come back to see if there are any problems, but I suspect it is just muscle pain. What I have found helps is taking Magnesium tablets and Magnesium oil.

When I was on Levo, even the correct dosage as per my blood results my muscle pain was worse. I stopped levo and went on to self treat on T3, at first all the muscle pain went, it was brilliant, then the pain came back worse than ever. I was only on 37.5 mcg of T3 but, I couldn't increase I would get major headaches and the neck stiffness was awful.

I am now trying NDT, and although the pain and stiffness is not as bad, it is still there. I suspect that maybe I am not on the right dosage, but, I am increasing slowly.

I see that you have increased your T4 to a very high dosage 250mcg, have you any blood results when you were on T4 alone 100 mcg and T4 and T3, it could be that the original T4 dosage was not adequate?

Some people also find that the certain brands of T4 they don't get on with.

I see that you have mentioned you are taking testosterone, but, have you had your cortisol levels checked?

High or low cortisol can cause all sorts of problems. If high it can cause fatigue and muscle weakness. Do you know if you have got a conversion problem (converting T4 to T3)?

One more thing, if your T3 levels are really low, pushing yourself at the gym will only make your situation worse, it's T3 that controls our metabolism and if that is low anyway using it to go to the gym on top of day to day tasks will only make you weaker.

Best Wishes

Peanut31

[wsenior in reply to Peanut31]

Hey Peanut,

My bloods were good when I was on T3-alone, but the muscle problems didn't go away:

Cortisol AM 12.43 ug/dL [6.23-18.02]

Cortisol PM 5.67 ug/dL [2.57-10.36]

TSH 1.13 uUI/mL [0.27-4.20]

T3 Free 3.69 pg/mL [2.00 - 4.40]

T3 Total 1.27 ng/mL [0.80-2.00]

Creatine Kinase 138 U/L [7.00-190.00]

My bloods weren't bad when I was on T4 either. Perhaps my TSH was higher on T4, I don't have them handy. I just read that when T4 levels are high that T3 conversion is slow, and when T4 levels are low T3 conversion picks up.

"....there is a strong evidence of auto regulation of peripheral conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) with increasing conversion rates at low serum T4 levels and decreasing conversion when T4 is elevated..."

This could tell me I need to cycle my T4 to better mimic the bodies natural cycles. Unfortunately the T4 cycle is not as easily recognized as the T3 Circadian rhythm is. I don't think it is good to always be stable at a high dose, aren't there natural fluctuations of the body?...this might be why some people that are on a stable dose of T4 don't convert well to T3 and take it externally. I also think that there are things the body is missing when taking T3-alone.....why my muscles didn't get better (T4 still needed for some processes). I'm still theorizing and haven't put the pieces together.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

"....there is a strong evidence of auto regulation of peripheral conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) with increasing conversion rates at low serum T4 levels and decreasing conversion when T4 is elevated..."

Yes, they're talking about rT3. When you don't convert very well, and the FT4 gets too high, it starts converting to more rT3 than T3, so conversion gets even worse.

This could tell me I need to cycle my T4 to better mimic the bodies natural cycles.

What do you mean by 'cycle your T4 better'? T4 doesn't have a circadian rythme. TSH and T3 do, but not T4. So, I really don't know how you would 'mimic the body's natural cycles'. T4 is a storage hormone, it waits in store for the body to convert it as it needs it. If you don't convert well, it has nothing to do with cycles.

...this might be why some people that are on a stable dose of T4 don't convert well to T3 and take it externally.

Doubtful. There are many, many things that can affect conversion. Sometimes it's just because you have Hashi's, and there's nothing you can do about that.

Some people get on very well with T3 only. Others need lots of T4, and others need just a little. You have to experiment to find out what, exactly, you need. No-one can tell you in advance. We are all so very different.

Your FT3, in those results, is not much over mid-range. And, your TSH is saying that that's not enough. Most hypos find they need their TSH at least under 1, and very often suppressed, when they're on T3 only. You could try increasing your T3, or you could try adding in some T4 - or try both, one after the other. As I said, it's all trial and error.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Hey GreyGoose,

Much thanks for your reply. I thought that that quote was talking about the conversion of T4 to T3 (not rT3). I'm not sure when or why the rT3 conversion takes place. I'm not arguing with you, just trying to figure things out. For context I found that quote in the "Background" paragraph of this article:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Yeah, in some ways I felt better on T3-alone (less of a 'crash' at night and I lost some weight, but still had muscle pains and excessive soreness) and in some ways I feel better now on a high T4-alone dose (so far less muscle pain, but I'm more sluggish with super high appetite and I "crash big time at night). I felt pretty much the same as the T4-alone when I was taking T4+T3.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Yes, they are talking about T4 conversion to T3, but also to rT3. So, as they didn't mention the name, I thought I'd clarify that. Obviously, I didn't! lol Normally, T4 converts to equal amounts of T3 and rT3 but, under certain circumstances, it converts to more rT3 than T3. One of those circumstances is mentioned in that quote - i.e. when FT4 levels get too high because you're not converting well to T3. Hope that's a bit clearer.

Have you never considered that perhaps the muscle pains and excessive soreness aren't to do with your thyroid? How's your zinc level?

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

But they were saying that it was when a Hypothyroid was taking T4 externally and levels were elevated that conversion didn't take place (or was lessened). I don't pull from that paragraph what you are pulling from it (the rT3 part you mentioned). They were saying that the biological effects of the dose lasts even longer than the 7-day half-life, poor conversion to T3 being one.

That 2nd article I sent had this quote:

"Also,

LT4 is a prohormone which is converted in the body tissues

into metabolically active TT3 by the local deiodinase

enzyme. In the peripheral tissue, there is autoregulation

in the conversion of T4 to T3, which increases at a low T4

level and decreases at a higher T4 level [7]. These properties

of LT4 suggest the possibility of using it at a longer

dosing interval than the traditional daily dosing."

Yeah, I've considered many other things and had many tests to see if i had some other disease or Myopathy, so far with no positive results (a blessing and a curse...hahaha). I take Zinc, Magnesium, and Calcium so I'm guessing it's fine. I might have had it tested once a couple of years back with normal results. I was thinking that Testosterone therapy could also affect the absorption of the thyroid med's. This all started around the same time when I went on TRT and when I added T3 to T4

Frustrating that the Endocrinology "Specialist's" don't study all these things for their patient's. My concentration ability is much lower and I forget things moments after coming up with them...hahaha....trying to print out articles and take notes now so I don't have to reinvent the wheel quite as often.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

In that paragraph I quoted, he isn't talking about rT3 specifically. But, yes, it could lead to higher rT3 I suppose. But, when I was talking about rT3, I wasn't thinking about that extract. I quoted that because you were talking about taking 7 day's-worth of levo all in one go, and why it wasn't a good idea.

Why are you taking calcium? That's a very bad thing to take. It could be building up in your soft tissues. I don't know if that causes pain, but it doesn't sound like a good thing to happen. Calcium supplements can lead to things like heart attacks, and kidney stones.

I don't know that testosterone therapy affects absorption of thyroid hormone. But, of course, you wouldn't take them at the same time, would you? If they are taken well apart, as far as I know, there's no problem. Besides, you do not appear to have an absorption problem - not at gut level, anyway. And there's no way of telling about the cellular level except by experimenting with higher doses.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Oh, wait a minute, which paragraph are you talking about? I'm getting confused. The paragraph you quoted, or the paragraph I quoted? If it's the paragraph you quoted, then no, you would 'pull' rT3 from it. I just happen to know the process they're talking about, and that's how it works, by converting to rT3 instead of T3.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Yeah, I was never talking about rT3 at all and I don't think the 2 quotes I mentioned were either. I don't disagree that rT3 is being produced and is an issue with Hashimoto's, I just didn't enter it into my side of the conversation. These were the 2 quotes from the 2 different articles:

"In the peripheral tissue, there is auto regulation in the conversion of T4 to T3, which increases at a low T4 level and decreases at a higher T4 level [7]." karger.com/Article/FullText...

and

"In addition, there is a strong evidence of auto regulation of peripheral conversion of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3) with increasing conversion rates at low serum T4 levels and decreasing conversion when T4 is elevated (5). Also, large doses of thyroxine are usually well tolerated (68). Together these properties suggest the possibility of using dosing intervals longer than the traditional 24 hours." ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

No worries, I really appreciate your discussion. It's hard to communicate clearly by text or email. I am interested in possibly taking the T4 1x/week to see how I feel. I will take into account that response you sent by 'Diogenes'. There are many reports that show a high dose 1x/week is well tolerated without negative sides. I agree that you are more stable without high's and low's when you take it daily, but I'm theorizing that I might not be converting T4 to T3 because I am always at a "High-Normal" level. Seems I'm reading that conversion of T4 to T3 mainly occurs during the low fluctuations of T4. better to take a week off here and there to allow the body to regulate itself some.

In TRT you can get saturated even at regular lower end dosages....Your dopamine receptors for example need longer to get back to normal....so better to allow testosterone to dip below desired levels sometimes before taking another dose............My point---which i'm not explaining well---is, dipping below normal levels on hormones for a time can allow other parallel processes that take longer to function better. In TRT many DR's don't take into account the saturation of dopamine receptor's....they just look at the testosterone levels, they also don't seem to care about the testicles and allowing them to function (albeit diminished capacity....or you wouldn't have needed the TRT in the first place).

I'm suspicious of Daily T4 regime's because there might be other processes that are being saturated and retarded.....which seems to be indicated by those articles demonstrating that T3 conversion happens when T4 levels are fluctuating on the low end (not living there). I would rather have my body make sufficient T3 than take it externally.

Thanks for your time and Patience. Like I said, communication by text is not easy.

Best,

Walter

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Yeah, I was never talking about rT3 at all and I don't think the 2 quotes I mentioned were either. I don't disagree that rT3 is being produced and is an issue with Hashimoto's, I just didn't enter it into my side of the conversation. These were the 2 quotes from the 2 different articles:

No, I know you didn't mention rT3, I did. But, that's what your two quotes were talking about, that at high levels, conversion of T4 to T3 gets worse, because more T4 is being converted to rT3 and less to T3. That's all I'm saying. I was just explaining to you how it works, why it happens. I was not saying that rT3 is a problem in itself, not that it is causing your problems, but that is how the autoregulation works.

There are many reports that show a high dose 1x/week is well tolerated without negative sides.

It might not have a negative side, but it doesn't have a benefit side. There is no advantage to taking it once a week. So, I don't understand why you want to do it.

I'm theorizing that I might not be converting T4 to T3 because I am always at a "High-Normal" level

Without seeing your FT4 level, I can't comment on that. But, it would have to be right up the top of the range to start converting to more rT3 than T3.

Seems I'm reading that conversion to T3 mainly occurs during the low fluctuations of T4. better to take a week off here and there to allow the body to regulate itself some.

I think you are misunderstanding what you are reading. T4 does not fluctuate naturally. It will not fluctuate if you are taking the same dose every day - either it's too high or it isn't. But, if you only take it once a week, it will fluctuate, and that's what diogenes is explaining. And, taking a week off here and there will not allow your body to regulate itself, it will just make you more hypo.

Testosterone and T4 are two entirely different hormones. Just because testosterone acts in a certain way, does not mean that T4 does. T4 is a storage hormone. Testosterone - presumably you're talking free testosterone? - isn't.

So, I can only repeat that T4 does not fluctuate, so your theories just don't work. And, I'm afraid you're going to make yourself sicker. I think you are assuming that T4 is converted instantly it gets into the system. It isn't. It takes six weeks for the T4 you've just swallowed to be absorbed and processed and converted. The differences in levels between the time you swallow it and 24 hours later are, therefore, evened out. I think you are confusing the action of T3 with the non-action of T4. And, I don't know what else I can say to explain it to you.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

That was a great thorough reply. Yeah, I have a lot more research to do and It's quite possible I'm misinterpreting things. I greatly appreciate your feedback. I understand your explanation quite clearly, I'm just not comfortable with those conclusions yet. I got to get there on my own. Some of what I read created doubts and more questions for me that I need to overcome through discussions like this and more research on my part. I appreciate your feedback on my journey to finding a cure, or at the very least a better quality of life.......P.S. How do you do bold text?

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

I can only tell you how to do bold text on a PC:

- highlight the text you want in bold

- press on Ctrl and B

- to go back to non-bold, do the same thing.

Don't have a mobile phone or anything else, so can't tell you how to do it on other things.

If you want any more discussions on these subjects, you know where I am!

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Ok, thanks, I'm on a Mac....i will figure it out.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Going in a different direction, this article is interesting. It is discussing muscle pain associated with T4 treatment and how the use of Creatine Monohydrate can help to alleviate the pains. I've been taking it for a couple of weeks and haven't noticed a difference yet. I think this article could be on to something for me in that it theorizes that long-term T4 replacement therapy can exhaust our muscle glycogen stores. I could buy into that.

academic.oup.com/painmedici...

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Plenty of people to take long-term T4 replacement with no adverse effects. How long have you been on T4? And, didn't you say that your muscle pain was just the same on T3 only?

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

My muscle pain was worse on T3 alone but it hasn't left since I've been on T4 alone (16 days). I need to give it some more time. I can say it seems a little better on T4 alone, though I have more fatigue, emotions, hunger, and sluggishness on on T4 alone. These are my blood results from today (taking 200-250mcg/daily T4):

TSH 0.42 [ 0.27 - 4.20 reference range ]

Free T4 2.04 [ 0.93 - 1.70 ref range ]

T3 Total 1.05 [ 0.80 - 2.00 ref range ]

Vit B12 505.0 [ 197.0 - 771.0 ref range ]

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Well, your FT4 is over-range, but those results give us no idea of how well you convert, because TT3 is the wrong test. It's FT3 we need. You can only compare like with like.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Ok, I will see if they have that test here. I'm living in South America right now. Yeah, i'm taking too much T4....was an experiment to see if I felt better on more T4. Going to see if I can get that tested tomorrow.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

ok, here are my results with the Free T3:

TSH 0.42 [ 0.27 - 4.20 reference range ]

Free T4 2.04 [ 0.93 - 1.70 ref range ]

* Free T3 3.65 pg/ mL [ 2.00 - 4.40 pg/ mL ref range ]

T3 Total 1.05 [ 0.80 - 2.00 ref range ]

Vit B12 505.0 [ 197.0 - 771.0 ref range ]

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

You do have a conversion problem, there. You need your FT4 well over-range to be able to get your FT3 up to about mid-range. And, it is possible that you need your FT3 a bit higher.

I don't know if the high FT4 could be causing symptoms. These things vary from person to person. But, were your symptoms the same when you were on a lower dose of levo?

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

I think the muscle symptoms were a little worse when I was on a lower T4 dose (I was taking 100mcg T4 + 25mcg of T3 in the morning for a year before doing this experiment).

This confuses me as some of the studies on "Hypothyroid Myopathy" that I read claimed that all issues resolved upon the administration of T4. That's why I wanted to try a large T4 dose to check to see if I was under-medicated. My Dr. is actually happy with my blood results now and she wants me to stay on this 200mcg T4 dose.

Perhaps my muscle problems stem from the Autoimmune action in my body and not the secondary effects of my thyroid levels (a symptom of the problem)? Perhaps this is some kind of inflammation? I know I don't have Hep-C or Arthritis. I don't know much about Fibromyalgia or CFS. I'm inclined to go back to my research on using biological med's to clear out my B-cells which in turn make the cells that are attacking me. B-Cell Depletion Med's like 'Rituximab'. I'm even open to Thyroidectomy if it helps me.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

I don't know anything about Rituximab, but I believe it is only used for Hashimoto's Encephalitis, which is not the same thing as Hashimoto's Thyroiditis.

Perhaps my muscle problems stem from the Autoimmune action in my body and not the secondary effects of my thyroid levels (a symptom of the problem)?

I think low thyroid levels are a lot more than just 'secondary effects' and 'a symptom'. You cannot live without thyroid hormone, and low T3 can cause all sorts of problems in every corner of your body.

I wonder if your doctor would be so happy with your results if they were his? I very much doubt it! You don't convert very well, and your FT3 could be higher, and that could be the problem, as I've no doubt said before in this thread, but it's now got so long I've forgotten what I've said!

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Hey thanks for the feedback GreyGoose. Yeah, I might add a small amount of T3 back into the equation soon.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Good idea. Start low and build up slowly. So, 6.25 to start with.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Ok, I have 5mcg tabs.

Also, the Rituximab started me down the idea of 'B-cell depletion therapy', whether Rituximab is the one, or if there are other biological med's more suited to Hashi's I would be first in line for a clinical trial.....it could send this whole issue into remission and not have to worry any more about symptoms or thyroid med's. I read that study about the Hashimoto's Encephalitis patient, but there are other studies on RA and Chronic Fatigue Disorder that show these types of med's are very promising. I believe the cure is out there.....I know for the drug companies 'cures' don't make much money, they would rather treat our symptoms.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

5 mcg tablets are fine to start on.

.it could send this whole issue into remission and not have to worry any more about symptoms or thyroid med's.

Well, I'm afraid you would still have to worry about thyroid 'meds'. Levo, T3, etc. are not a treatment for Hashi's, they are thyroid hormone replacement. And, if you've already got to the point where you need to take them, there's no going back. The thyroid has already been damaged and it cannot regenerate. So, thyroid hormone replacement is for life, I fear.

There are plenty of studies on autoimmune disease 'cures', but not Hashi's. Hashi's is different. I've never heard of any trials or anything for that.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

I was on 100mcg of T4 + 25 mcg of T3 for over 1.5 years and I didn't feel well (muscle problems started during this time)

I then went on 50mcg of T3 only for 6-months and my muscle issues got worse. I probably should have tried a higher dose.

Yeah, drug companies aren't really motivated to find a cures for diseases like Hashi's.....a cure means they would stop making many billions of dollars each year. THey only want solutions that mean being medicated for life. You are probably right about taking the thyroid med's for life. If a thyroidectomy would guarantee me to feel better I would get one done....but the autoimmune side of this disease isn't well understood and not being treated....other than by diet recommendations and stuff like LDN.

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

But, a thyroidectomy would not help, because it's not your thyroid at fault. And, you would still be on thyroid hormone replacement.

Drug companies really aren't likely to look for cures for anything. A customer cured is a customer lost! They just want to keep us alive, with lots of symptoms that can be treated individually, rather than concentrate on the root cause. And, the worst of it is that doctors buy into that! Doctors, that have sworn to do no harm, do more harm than anybody outside the military forces! I have never seen a doctor that hasn't made me worse, rather than better - and I've seen a whole lot of doctors! But, don't get me started on that!

Have you tried LDN? Sounds like it's quite good. I haven't tried it because it's not easy to self-treat with it, and I can't find a doctor that even knows what it is! But, if you can, I would say it's worth a try. I don't put a lot of faith in diet. It never helped me, cutting out this, and looking for 'super foods'. I don't believe in super foods. Nor to I believe that a lot of natural food can be dangerous. It's the way Big Food messes about with it that makes it bad. But, there I go again! Ranting! It must be that time of night.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

I did try LDN for a few months but I felt nothing.....(I didn't do bloods to check antibodies) I just went on how I felt. I know many people sing its praises. I got my Dr. to prescribe it for me, it's a drug prescribed for alcoholics and drug addicts.....it takes away their "high" and helps them quit. They use it in a very high dose.....I think just 1 of their dissolved tablets would last me 12 days or something like that. I just mixed 1 tablet with an exact amount of water to create the mix. I used a water syringe to take the exact dose I wanted (no needle...free from pharmacies).

Yeah, if I talk too much about Health Ins companies, Dr's, or Drug companies I will get in a foul mood : )

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

[greygoose]

What would help more than your vital statistics is your lab test results. Sounds to me as if you've never been on enough T3. But the numbers - results and ranges - would reveal all.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Thanks Grey Goose, see my reply to Peanut above.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

When I was on high T3 I had heart or chest palpitations....but then again, I still had T4 in my system, so it could have been the mix that made that happen. Not sure what to try next. I'm trying high T4-alone right now (250mcg/day). Next I was thinking about doing the 1x dose per week method.......1400mcg 1x/week.....in that sense cycling the T4

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Taking all your T4 in one go once a week has nothing to do with 'cycling'. I have to say, I don't know where you're coming from, with that.

Here's what diogenes says about weekly dosing:

The basic problem is that, to get an average acceptable dose over a week, at first when you take a big dose, you overdose and your body sees the excess T4 as a toxin, and diverts it to reverse T3 which is inactive as regards helpful hormone. The overdose also inhibits conversion of T4 to T3 the active hormone. Then over the week your T4 level steadily drops (half of it lost in 7 days) so that at the end of the week you are underdosed and now are not making enough of the active hormone T3 from it, in sufficient quantity. The need is to keep your T4/T3 level as constant as possible over time, which is what happens naturally.

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

So, that's doesn't really sound as if it's likely to help, does it.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

Cycling in the sense that I go from a high level on the day I take the dose to a low level on the day before my next dose.

Ok, you don't think being on a "normal-high" dose constantly would make us get into Thyrotoxicosis? I'm reading to see if it prevents conversion of T4 to T3.

"In the peripheral tissue, there is autoregulation in the conversion of T4 to T3, which increases at a low T4 level and decreases at a higher T4 level"

karger.com/Article/FullText...

[Peanut31 in reply to wsenior]

Hi wsenior

Well I’ve found out today why I’m suffering with neck stiffness and pain.

I’ve received my mri scan report today and I’ve got bulging disc and joint degenerative changes in my C4/5, C5/6.

Disc bulging and central disc protrusion indenting the thecal sac which is slightly deforming the spin cord, with mild facet joint degenerative changes.

Did you say you have had an MRI?

Best Wishes

Peanut31

[wsenior in reply to Peanut31]

Hey Peanut, I'm happy for you that you at least found out what your problem was. It gives you a clear direction for treatment. Best of luck with your physical therapy and exercises. I hope you get back to full strength and mobility without any pain.

[Hypo_juan in reply to Peanut31]

Hi Peanut31, sorry to hear about the bone problems! This is very interesting as I was diagnosed with bone disease in my lower back a couple of years ago. Interesting to know if there is a link with hypothyroidism and bone disease. I'm sure I have read somewhere about calcium deficiencies etc (clearly not the technical term!) linked to the disease.

The speciailist advised that the only thing that may help other than physio would be a pain killer injection. No thanks! I've just been taking painkillers whenever it gets too painful and other times I just spend hours grinding my teeth as a distraction.. probably why my 2 bottom teeth broke so easily. (Again.. convenient link?) Anyway, best of luck to you and don't let it get you down. 🙂

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

Ok, you don't think being on a "normal-high" dose constantly would make us get into Thyrotoxicosis? I'm reading to see if it prevents conversion of T4 to T3.

I believe that thyrotoxicosis is caused by high T3, not T4. But, I've already explained about how a too high level of FT4 prevents conversion to T3 by converting to rT3. I explained that twice.

[Gem5987]

Hi! Sorry you are not feeling well. Perhaps you are over medicated? I become very weak and fatigued and also develop muscle stiffness and cramps when my test results have shown too much thyroid hormone in my system. Are your levels in normal range? It takes a long time to feel back normal again after over medication or when switching doses or medication type. Best wishes!

[wsenior in reply to Gem5987]

Hey Gem, I'm going to see how my 250mcg/day works out for my muscle symptoms and then go from there. If it worsens I will go off of all med's for a while to see if that helps. T3 was nice in that I lost some weight and didn't have the crazy appetite that I did on T4. I feel Insulin Resistance or some type of Fatigue/Weakness/Anemia on them both. I "crash" at night with T4-only.

[Gem5987]

Some people feel better if they take their T4 medication at night. Just a thought.

[wsenior in reply to Gem5987]

Hey Gem, yeah I'm willing to try that. Pretty desperate to get my life back. Thanks.

[Marz]

I have a note in my brain book about low B12 affecting the conversion of ATP into ADP in the muscles. Do you have good B12 levels - well enough to go around ?

medium.com/@TildeCafe/whats...

[wsenior in reply to Marz]

Hey Marz, yeah, i've been taking Vit B injections for a few months now and don't feel much of a difference. I actually had blood test on that today:

TSH 0.42 [ 0.27 - 4.20 reference range ]

Free T4 2.04 [ 0.93 - 1.70 ref range ]

T3 Total 1.05 [ 0.80 - 2.00 ref range ]

Vit B12 505.0 [ 197.0 - 771.0 ref range ]

Thanks for asking me that....my search continues : )

I hope you are doing well.

Best,

Walter

[greygoose]

On the subject of nutrients… You didn't say why you are taking calcium. Have you had your calcium tested lately? It could be that you have excess calcium and it's affecting your muscles.

Calcium supplements are not something to mess around with, and should only be taken if absolutely necessary. They can cause all sorts of problems.

And, how is your vit D? Essential to test that.

[wsenior in reply to greygoose]

I take a supplement that is Zinc, Magnesium, and Calcium all together. Been taking it for a couple of months (i'm only taking half of the dose to make it last longer).

[greygoose in reply to wsenior]

You should not be taking any calcium at all without first testing to see what your level is. Excess calcium - and calcium supplements - can cause problems like heart attacks and kidney stones. I think, with the exception of a B complex, it is always a bad idea to take these group supplements, let's call them. As a general rule, you should only be taking what you need, and it's very doubtful you need calcium. And, should you absolutely need it, you should be taking vit K2 - MK7 with it, to make sure they calcium goes into the bones and teeth and doesn't build up in the soft tissues.

[birkie]

Hi

I to was a gym fanatic going 4 days a week then doing gym ball and Aerobics at home at the weekend..I was very fit the only problem at that time was a knee injury which required an op I had said op and recovered well..then in 2004 I developed an overactive parathiyroid 😧 At that time I had never heard of this...it took me over 12 weeks to recover no gym..so I went bk slowly only doing the warm up but this killed my muscles after months of trying to get my fitness back I went to my docs and after over a year I was diagnosed with Fibro/ and ME.🤔..I tried in vain to get my fitness back..all I could do was use the gym ball to try to strengthen my leg muscles but even that was hell the pain is so intense you have to stop doing any form of keep fit..then just this year in around July/ Aug I started with even more pain in my muscles..they started to shake when I was on them or using them..I became so fatigued I could not move I saw my GP who took bloods and my diagnosis was overactive thiyroid gland hyperparathiroid..I am now 56.. And did start going threw the menupause in 2003 ...and I now think that this illness wether it be overactive or under active as something to do with our hormonal system,,,but my GP disagrees I can't speek for men,,,but we women do go through changes to our systems which is linked to hormones...at the moment I feel awfull I can't take the anti thiyroid meds and I'm still waiting to see a endo..😡 Ho and by the way my GP gave me painkillers for the muscle pain...they don't do much I can hardly walk...😢

[wsenior in reply to birkie]

Hello Birkie,

I'm sorry that you are feeling bad. I can relate. The only exercise I can tolerate now are pool workouts (A mix of running in the shallows and swimming in the pool). I would recommend doing them as well. If the water is cool all-the-better, as it seems to lower the body inflammation for an hour after I workout as well (you wont overheat). Another added benefit is that there is very little impact or risk of injury. It's a free form of physical therapy. This can keep you mobile and keep you from becoming an invalid and sedentary.....while you continue to look for a cure/solution to your pain. Don't stop fighting, I know it's incredibly hard both emotionally and physically.