Covid Vaccine, would you have it? Fib... - Fibromyalgia Acti...

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Covid Vaccine, would you have it? Fibromyalgia reasons

Hidden
Hidden

My family are discussing the vaccines and we all agreed that as my body is hypersensitive, I wouldn't have it. My body has major flare ups every time I have an injection. I was just recovering from an epidural I had three years ago, only to be bedridden by the flu jab. I'd never had issues with the flu jab before. Would this be grounds for refusing the Vaccine? I've been isolating from March. Just wondered what your views are.

Update... I have just been informed at I'm in the next batch of people due to get the Vaccine. This is due to my various conditions. I've noticed that they're fine tuning the Vaccine and can alter it to make it more effective and we might only need one injection! I'm still thinking about it but due to the feedback my post has had, I veering towards getting the Vaccine.

208 Replies

Can I ask why you are isolating?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dazakella2010

I have various conditions that means I'm shielding, sorry not isolating. I got told to shield during the first lockdown.

Dazakella2010
Dazakella2010 in reply to Hidden

I also have many conditions including blood cancer fibro and 2 different types of arthritis.... I was also told to shield in March and have been told to shield again but for my mental health I am being sensible and still going out to do my weekly shop! I’m due to be vaccinated by mid feb and I will not be turning it down... even though my conditions will flare up after this....

Why do you think conditions will flare up because of vaccine? None of the patients with autoimmune diseases in our clinic have reported a flare post vaccine.

I’m on chemotherapy and with all my medical conditions anything different affects my body

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Dazakella2010

curious if you know which one will be offered to you with chemo? The pfizer with mRNA possibly?

Hi... I had my vaccine last Saturday, I had the Pfizer.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Dazakella2010

thanks for letting me know.

Hi can I ask how you are after your vaccine? Hope it went well for you x

Hi... of course. I was absolutely fine, the only thing I suffered with was a really painful arm but that only lasted for around 14 hours.

I would say that as someone who has an autoimmune condition and fibromyalgia and who has been fortunate enough to have recently been vaccinated, I can give things from my own perspective.Yes, I had a minor 24 hour flare up after but nothing compared to the effects of the virus I sustained 3 years ago that resulted in my condition developing in the first place.

Unless you have ever had an anaphylaxis following any injection, there is no reason not to have it. The Oxford vaccination is live so any immunocompromised individual would be advised accordingly. However, the Pfizer isn’t a live vaccine and can be given in this scenario. As a NHS worker, I am grateful to have received mine. For me, it’s a no brainer.

It is worth remembering too the long lasting effects that some people are experiencing with long Covid. I have colleagues who are still ill now from catching it in the first wave.

I hope my perspective helps😊

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Alb2

Thanks for your response. I wish my flare ups were so short. I'll continue to watch this space and soak up different views.

phlebo123
phlebo123 in reply to Hidden

Like Alb2, I am an NHS worker and received my Pfizer vaccination 2 weeks ago. I had a sore arm for 2 days afterwards and some local redness , but otherwise no major side effects. The consequences of actually catching the virus can be much more devastating, and for me the thought of a few days of feeling unwell far outweighs the possible risks of the virus itself. Especially if you are in the "shielding" category , I would definitely believe it would be beneficial for you, maybe write down a list of the pro's and con's. Or discuss it further with your doctor.

ReenieB
ReenieB in reply to phlebo123

I think that’s an excellent idea to make a list with the pros and cons. I live in the U. S. Today I read a healthy Dr. in his early 59’s died after taking the vaccine. I never took the flu vaccine until I got the flu very bad 2 years in a row. Now, I take it every year. I’m undecided but my niece who’s a nurse took it and was fine. She took Phizer’s vaccine and has to get one more dose of it. It’ll be 95% effective against Covid19. I also have a friend with MS which is considered an autoimmune disease too and she got very dizzy and started to sweat several hours after the shot. The next day she felt worse and was vomiting. She’s fine now. My brother-in-law had the virus in March and wax hospitalized, given oxygen, etc. but he only had a thyroid issue at the time that is well controlled. Now, he has permanent nodules all over his lungs from Covid19 and had to be on a strong steroid inhaler. On the con side a vaccine like the COVID-19 one would normally take 10-15 years to complete studies, so they don’t know the long term effects if any the vaccine could have. This is why the companies in the U.S. signed agreements saying they would release the vaccine but can’t be sued. There’s definitely pros and cons but being on a respirator or worse is scary. Good luck. Hopefully, things will get better and improve.

debbiemorry
debbiemorry in reply to ReenieB

Hi. I just got out of a UK hospital after a week on facial oxygen for covid. Fortunately covid seems gone. Now the fibromyalgia is so serious pain that I'm crying with it. Glad to be home with the kiddies. Thought I might die at one point with vertigo, so praising Jesus for my kids. Desperate though, for the pain.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to debbiemorry

🙏🏿

Londinium
Londinium in reply to ReenieB

If my recollection is correct, in the USA (and, I think, Britain also) vaccine manufacturers were not liabile and could not be sued... since the Reagan era of, I think, the 1980's.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

This case is because they responding at pace but if you look at previous track record since Reagan and before the risk versus benefit measurement is in the plus column.

Ballroomdiva
Ballroomdiva in reply to ReenieB

ONLY had a thyroid condition...you may want to re phrase that. I I have Hypothyroidism /Hashimotos and it’s just as bad as having Fybro I have had it most of my adult life (52) and unlike fybro has the potential to kill if not treated. ( and before anyone comes gunning for me 🤣 I was diagnosed with Fybro 5 years ago hence being on here. . As to COVID Vaccine .. bring it on., it can’t come soon enough. ..

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Ballroomdiva

do not think the only was pejorative and was being used in its "single" sense.

Prejorative or not, it implied that a Thyroid condition is somehow less of a condition ( and yes compared to COVID it is ) but Hypothyroidism / Hashimotos is a condition that could be as dangerous as diabetes or Asthma if you were to get COVID. ..

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Ballroomdiva

no the point I was making is I read it as only one horse in the stable as opposed to that's the only horse you can have. There is ambiguity and best to infer the positive if in doubt.

You may be right. 😊👍

DearD
DearD in reply to Alb2

I want to reassure you that there is NO 'live' coronavirus in the Oxford vaccine:-

How does the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine work?

The vaccine – called ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 – uses a harmless, weakened version of a common virus which causes a cold in chimpanzees.

Researchers have already used this technology to produce vaccines against a number of pathogens including flu, Zika and Middle East respiratory syndrome (Mers).

The virus is genetically modified so it is impossible for it to grow in humans.

Scientists have transferred the genetic instructions for coronavirus’s specific “spike protein” – which it needs to invade cells – to the vaccine.

When the vaccine enters cells inside the body, it uses this genetic code to produce the surface spike protein of the coronavirus.

This induces an immune response, priming the immune system to attack coronavirus if it infects the body.

Alb2
Alb2 in reply to DearD

That’s really interesting, thank you. I think it was mentioned by one of the Professors during a news update who raised the possibility of immunocompromised patients (thinking cytotoxic therapies here) needing the Pfizer as opposed to Astra/Zeneca but your explanation makes huge sense. Thank you for clarification.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to DearD

thanks for picking up on this one as I had thought I had replied about the live element.

calliejx
calliejx in reply to Alb2

Thank you I never knew that about the Oxford one being 'live' etc x

Alb2
Alb2 in reply to calliejx

If you look at DearD post, you will see it is not actually ‘live’. They’ve provided a really informative post😊

I am dubious tbh, I did not even take my influenza vaccine and keep getting letters from NHS advising me of the consequences of not taking it.

I asked my GP to advise if I can have the above vaccine if I am still recovering from Covid and have allergies to food, penicillin etc. She said she does not know and offered me to go to A& E to get the answer. Well...shocked to the core 🤔 On the other hand we are told not to go to A& E unless there is real emergency

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Painny

You're getting the same response as I did. No one wants to commit themselves as there is so much not known. Thanks for responding

Dazakella2010
Dazakella2010 in reply to Painny

To go to a&e!!!! This is shocking!!!!

MaggieSylvie
MaggieSylvie in reply to Painny

If you are not elderly, you may have to wait so long for it that you will see for yourself how it has affected many others before it gets to your turn. I'm 76 and shielding and haven't been offered a shot yet.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to MaggieSylvie

That's what I'm thinking as I'm in my early 50s. They might eventually get to me, either because of age or illness.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

I used one of the calculators out there and I think for a 61 year old on current levels but no additional requirements they were looking at middle of may but that will change.

I will get mine by mid feb x

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator

We know what the risks of contracting covid are so that should be thought about. The vaccine will mitigate the effects or prevent you contracting it so on a practical level it is worth having to avoid the real risk offered by the virus.

Reported effects from the vaccine are minimal with localised pain in the arm being most common. What may happen in your body we cannot tell but likely it would follow this and a sore arm is what you may experience. But you would be protected.

The vaccines are quite different from the flu vaccine witht he pfizer/moderna vaccine being significantly different. The over 90s and those with compromised immune systems are taking these vaccines so anyone with fibro unless otherwise advised y their GP should take advantage of it as we know COVID will definitely be bad for us.

Final point, you are not being forced to take it and you do not need a reason to refuse it. If that is your wish then all it would require is that you advise the GP and allow someone else to benefit from your protection jab.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

I'm just worried about the injection not the vaccine as such as my body reacts violently to any foreign bodies, including materials, needles, foods etc. I'm hypersensitive to quite natural things. Sun, sea, light, leather, plastic, pineapple to name a few. After my epidural to stop nerve pain in my back, the doctor apologised as they'd never seen a reaction like mine. If they knew I wouldn't have been given it. That's why I'm sceptical . I'm not due for it yet as I'm 53 but the thought of it, stresses me out. I have the flu jab but get told off by friends and family because of the reaction I have.

Dazakella2010
Dazakella2010 in reply to Hidden

The consequences of flu and Covid could be more devastating.

Painny
Painny in reply to Hidden

I am in a similar situation misunderstood. The spinal surgeon explained the side effect of epidural and I decided not to proceed with it at the moment despite the excruciating pain in my lumbar. I shall wait until the hospital is under less pressure. Sometime I feel it is only the skin that holds my body and legs together. Getting severe Covid has made matters worse for me due to weakness in muscle so losing the plot for knowing which is which🤔

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Painny

I got a spine support belt from the hospital after having my spine scanned. It holds me from breast bone to hip and it does make a difference when I have to stand! Wearing it helps with my core muscles as I can't exercise. Ask your GP to refer you. I described my body as having a useless spine inside, so I needed something on the outside to hold me up, stop me collapsing.

Painny
Painny in reply to Hidden

Great, I will do xx

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

My OH is immuno surpressed / transplant meds, diabetic and a number of allergies. But when the vaccine is offered she will be taking it. She perhaps may have to await the correct one for her but that will be following advice.

Other important factor is your not just protecting you, and enabling you to get back to a more normal life it is also protecting others. Best to speak to the GP as they will be able to advise.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

I think it's finding the correct one for me that's the worry.

Dazakella2010
Dazakella2010 in reply to Hidden

I thought it was more the needle not the vaccine?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dazakella2010

I'm not scared of needles.

Dazakella2010
Dazakella2010 in reply to Hidden

No sorry... you said it was the foreign body that causes flare ups not the actual vaccine?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dazakella2010

They haven't worked out which one it is but I get regular steroid injections in my scalp and experience numbness for a week afterwards. Unlike the reaction I had to the epidural and the morphine patches.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

What's a more normal life? My life is practically the same before the virus. I'm a loner, have shopped online for over ten years and can count my friends on one hand with a finger to spare! I normally travel to Barbados and I can even do that if I really wanted to. Ear defenders, tinted prescription spectacles and my sunflower landyard and I'm in another world! 😂😂

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

A more normal life is having options or choices. These are restricted right now so even for those whose life is restricted prior to covid they may not notice much changes with shielding from a practical point of view.

But before covid we had the options to go out, attend appointments, meet friends , or go to a restaurant. Not having those options changes how we view things. And that is the normality of life irrespective of whether we exercise those choices.

As to finding the correct one for you, that is not for the individual to decide but for the GP and I would presume it will be an exclusion decision. i.e. any vaccine will do unless they know that it will not be suitable for you.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

Due to my 12 health conditions, I never met with friends or ate out at restaurants before Covid. My life hasn't changed since Covid as all of my conditions flared up before the virus. My life hasn't felt normal for years... but I understand and accept your view.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

I'm not due for it yet and will discuss it with my GP. Just thought about it and thought it'd be a good topic to gain information from. I'm looking at the pros and cons. So far the only pro is that it stops me from getting the severe Covid and the con is death. When my whole body flares up and not even my morphine cocktail with wine works, I'd prefer the latter but that's when my brain is scrambled. By the time I'm due, I can make an educated decision with my GP's input.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

Well its either put up with a major flare up that u no will pass or potentially get a deadly virus......

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

It's been 3 years and my flare up hasn't ceased, not even a little. If anything it's got worse. That's why I'm concerned. I don't know of any pain medication stronger than morphine and that's what's included in my medication cocktail. I spent 32 years using natural remedies and now I take lots of medications and I actually need them. If I wasn't going through a major flare up my decision would be easier.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

Yes im aware its not an easy desicion i got a huge flare a few weeks ago i actually got rushed in to hospital with a uti im still not the same but like i said a flare will pass eventually imagine how unwell youd be with covid if god forbid u did get it then it will be to late to get the injection....

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

My grandad is in harlow hospital with it right now hes on oxygen so just think about the vaccine...

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Hidden

A friend of mine died on New Year's Day of Covid. He had lots of underlying conditions. His wife is a nurse. Just weighing things up before I make a decision. It hasn't been offered to me yet. Here's praying your grandad pulls through. 🙏🏿

Mydexter
Mydexter in reply to desquinn

I don’t think the vaccine will prevent you getting Covid, But as you say it will make it less severe 👍

Painny
Painny in reply to Mydexter

Spot on !! 🥀🌹

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Mydexter

They do not have the evidence for it yet but they think so. If it lessens viral load then it should at least reduce the severity of infection passed on.

google.com/url?sa=t&source=...

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

I'd feel better if they knew not thought 🤔 I don't like the use of the word 'if', when discussing health. I like certain.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

That's why there papers are talking about what the vaccine can do with reducing effects of covid etc. When they have evidence to speak at a high percentile of cutting onwards transmission they will say so.

But then being sure may not convince some people 🙁

Dizzytwo
DizzytwoModerator

Hi I have had fibro for best part of 40 years. So my flare ups have been many and varied. I am so hypersensitive Ifeel I should be living in a permenant bubble. That just one of the reasons I can not take medications.

But for me personally which would I prefer a flare up even a long one which I know I will recover from. Or contract a deadly virus like covid. Just knowing the vacine could make the difference between life or death. No contest ill be taking my chances with the vaccine.

Also remember after the jab you cant leave for 15/20 mins. So even if you were found to have taken an allergic reaction they have the means to counteract that. Thats why you have to wait after been injected.

Oh and I dont have the flu jab never had it and im 64 with other health issues apart from fibro but yes I definitely will be having the vacine😕 xx

Momo

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dizzytwo

Any reason why you don't have the flu jab?

Dizzytwo
DizzytwoModerator in reply to Hidden

There is a few reasons I dont take the flu jab but the reasons are personal xx

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dizzytwo

OK. I can live with that x

Dizzytwo
DizzytwoModerator in reply to Hidden

👍

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Dizzytwo

Very well put x

Mrslebon1
Mrslebon1 in reply to Dizzytwo

I've been having the flu jab for years and have never had to wait. Its like a conveyer belt, in and out in seconds.

Covid causes problems with your breathing, damaging heart and lungs as well as other things. If those parts of your body actually work now, be grateful and have the vaccine to protect them. Difficulty breathing etc on top of everything else would make life so much harder.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to lioncub

Those parts don't work properly now

LisaSnow
LisaSnow in reply to Hidden

I am sorry that you have many unresolved medical issues. It is understandable that you fear any potential harm the vaccine could do. The data, however, does not support a high likelihood of worsening of existing symptoms for rheumatoid disease patients. What it shows is that vaccine WILL PROTECT your body from being severely damaged if you get infected. Please talk to your medical care team about your specific fears, and have faith that your body can easily tolerate the vaccine like the rest of us.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to LisaSnow

Thanks x

Hi I will definitely be taking the Covid vaccine when I am offered it. The thought of getting Covid terrifies me x

I’ll take my chances I’m not having a vaccine that’s not been tested long enough and messes with your DNA I don’t want my body messed up anymore than it is but it’s up to the individual at the end of the day and it’s your choice it’s your body .

Spanchic
Spanchic in reply to Inthepark

I’m with you there. I’ll trust my own immune system rather than a vaccine that has only been trialled for less than a year. I’ve survived this long with various autoimmune diseases including SLE (Lupus). I fear my immune system will over-react to the vaccine.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Spanchic

Yet covid literally kills people by making their immune system overreact and the vaccines do not. They stimulate them. Not attached to the royals in any way but if they can have it..........

Inthepark
Inthepark in reply to desquinn

I have done a lot of research into this and I have listened to a lot of medical professionals this is just my choice I’m not telling people not to have it

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Inthepark

That's exactly what I'm doing and hearing the views of others

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Inthepark

If you are talking about the vaccine changing your dna then your sources of information are corrupt.

Inthepark
Inthepark in reply to desquinn

I don’t think so you have your opinion and I have mine you can have mine

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Inthepark

opinion and fact are not the same thing. And I am not trying to pressure you or anyone to take the vaccine but also there is a lot of misinformation being peddled maliciously out there. The DNA alteration can be filed with 5G causing covid.....

consider your sources of information. (vast majority of) Epidemiologists and virologists trump Dr whoever with his agenda that has a youtube channel.

Spanchic
Spanchic in reply to desquinn

But the coronavirus only kills or injures a tiny proportion of people. It’s a tough one! My partner is going to have it - each to their own.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Spanchic

That's my issue. I have abnormal reactions to most things

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Spanchic

And the vaccine is proven to work has no side effects apart from a sore arm and steps you from catching this really disease and putting pressure on the NHS.

May lessen chances of getting may lessen chances of passing it on

May lessen the effect of his the next person may get covid from you

penny
penny in reply to desquinn

‘May’.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to penny

I separated out the "Mays" as they are not claimed as yet but some are indicated / hypothesised.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Spanchic

its the known versus the unknown.

We know what covid can do and we have this unknown of what may happen with this new thing. Assessing person risk is a personal and emotive thing. But step out your own personal situation and think what would be appropriate for son, friend, partner and parent. Being more objective about others may help you come to terms with the personal risk profile.

1% is death rate that is often quoted but there are those with the long tail of covid symptoms and those that have a bad couple of weeks or the pressure on the health service. And the potential guilt of passing it onto a loved one.

25% of all deaths in the week before xmas were covid related so it is significant and if the vaccine reduce covid to a non hospitalised flu level situation then you would be better for it and so would the NHS.

again its the known versus the unknown.

Alb2
Alb2 in reply to Spanchic

I don’t think you can argue that CV-19 only ‘kills or injuries a tiny proportion of people’. It is killing and making ill a huge proportion of people. The sooner we can eradicate it the better and reducing the opportunistic chance it has to develop further variants will be secured. Vaccination will not only protect the individual from developing severe symptoms, it provides protection for your loved ones.

penny
penny in reply to desquinn

We don’t know this in the long term. I’ve read that there is a risk of ADE.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

I suggest you view the FDA doc which lists several KNOWN potential adverse effects up to, and including, Death. And then, I suggest you view VAERS.

 Guillain-Barré syndrome

 Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis

 Transverse myelitis

 Encephalitis/myelitis/encephalomyelitis/ meningoencephalitis/meningitis/ encepholapathy

 Convulsions/seizures

 Stroke

 Narcolepsy and cataplexy

 Anaphylaxis

 Acute myocardial infarction

 Myocarditis/pericarditis

 Autoimmune disease

 Deaths

 Pregnancy and birth outcomes

 Other acute demyelinating diseases

 Non-anaphylactic allergic reactions

 Thrombocytopenia

 Disseminated intravascular coagulation

 Venous thromboembolism

 Arthritis and arthralgia/jointpain

 Kawasaki disease

 Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children

 Vaccine enhanced disease

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

that same FDA doc that you linked to previously from October that was part of a vaccine adverse effects surveillance program?

just to add that this list is possibly from the same source as this list from pre covid as it is the possible side effects that have been reported from (any) vaccines. The list above was before any covid vaccine was produced.

This list also gives some ratios that may be helpful but it is not indicative of any current covid vaccine. historyofvaccines.org/conte...

LisaSnow
LisaSnow in reply to Londinium

Have you ever read the possible side effects associated with the medication you take? Don't exaggeration (take things out of context) something to defend your position. That is called confirmation bias.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to LisaSnow

Every medication has side effects. If we took all side effects into consideration before taking medication. We wouldn't take any and the world would be filled of sick, dead or people in pain unable to live normal lives. Side effects rarely stops people from taking medication, even an aspirin has side effects, some deadly to certain people. These vaccines are no different.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to LisaSnow

I have not exaggerated anything. I provided the list of known adverse effects from the FDA. Because of your own "confirmation bias", you are attacking me for providing the FDA list and the link to the FDA doc. I suggest that you not attack me in order to defend your own position.

LisaSnow
LisaSnow in reply to Londinium

Actually I was pointing out the obvious. Please refrain from projecting your own paranoia onto others. You made your anti-vaccination view loud and clear and used the side effect list, which people SHOULD KNOW that incidence of severe ones are extremely RARE. YOU conveniently list them as if they are breakfast menu to scare others. Deny all you want but please be clear that others pointing out the obvious in your tactics is not attacking you but to call your action out. That is all. Peace!

Londinium
Londinium in reply to LisaSnow

I suggest you refrain from using rude and personal insults such as "paranoia". You are doing quite a bit of "projecting" of your own self, and casting your "projection" onto me. I will not accept your projection nor will I accept your insults. You "conveniently" resort to crass smear "tactics" of "anti vaccination" and "paranoia" when I had simply presented the FDA's list of known adverse effects and the link to their doc. Your hyper sensitive reaction to the mere presentation of facts reveals your own "confirmation bias". It is astonishing that you are reluctant to the idea of other adults having/seeing info from all sides, so that they are then better equipped to come to a decision re themselves.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Londinium

I posted this to be a discussion not a forum for attack! These posts are not helpful and they're repetitive 🤔🤫🤐😔

LisaSnow
LisaSnow in reply to Hidden

Haha I really wanted to request his response to be more "original"; it gets tiring to read your own choice of words being "borrowed" and used incorrectly. But seeing how unconstructive the "discussion" with him has been I think ignore is the best response....

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

These are "known adverse effects" of vaccines that may happen in a novel vaccine deployment.

Stepping out the door can result in death, broken leg, crushed by piano, hit by asteroid, picking up a cold, picking up Ebola, being shot in a terrorist incident, knock down by a car, tripping on a pavement stone ..... and many more"

These are not ordered in precedence, micromorts, or in fact any order what so ever. But they are all possible.

The FDA list is the put the cards on the table when we (they) are going to start a surveillance programme to catalogue any incidents. I have previously posted the numbers for allergic reactions as this is in the data. I have also mentioned that we have had some deaths but as yet none have been attributed to the vaccine as death still continues to happen.

Rather than confirmation bias that we all need to look out for and is good to be reminded of there is a need for acknowledging false equivalence. If you could provide some data that could show that these suggested events were occurring at above normal levels within the population then that would be good to be talking about. But that is not the case.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

I suggested that you view the VAERS data, even though VAERS is known to only document a small fraction of events. Also, several media outlets have noted that many people have died within hours or days after being injected. Are you saying that all those people who died, were due to die on those days, even without being injected?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Londinium

I find your comments very argumentative and this is not what I posted this subject for. You're allowed your own views as does everyone else. The tone that these replies are having, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I believe that you've more than made your point! I've read all the responses to my post. Some I agree with and some I don't. If you read my original post it might help with all future responses. If you believe a response is necessary.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

as I had already replied to this before you posted it I will just add that the VAERS reported 181 deaths in 10.6million people vaccinated. None so far have been proven to be related to the vaccine but the doctor who died is at least still being investigated but as yet as I said no link.

Also as I intimated above the profile of those being vaccinated are those most art risk i.e. the CEV and as such the mortality rate will be higher in this grouping even without a vaccine so it is important to compare the population "events" in the context of what would be happening normally. This is why we look at excess deaths overall when looking at the big picture as it flattens out anomalies that will happen.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Londinium

Every medication has side effects. If we took all side effects into consideration before taking medication. We wouldn't take any and the world would be filled of sick, dead or people in pain unable to live normal lives. Side effects rarely stops people from taking medication, even an aspirin has side effects, some deadly to certain people. These vaccines are no different.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Hidden

I never tell anyone that they should or shouldn't take a drug or injection or therspy. What I did, was present the list of known adverse effects along with the link to the doc. I also suggested viewing the data on the VAERS site. Of course, these options are for those who have an interest in such things. Those who aren't interested or don't care, can choose to ignore/disregard it.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

The VAERS site is our MHRA yellow card and set up to protect the US population. As of middle of January the reported adverse effects 0.075% and deaths was 0.0017%. This is relevant only when this as above the average or cause / relationship has been found and then practice is changed.

Do not have the numbers but I suspect the 1 in a 1000 scale here is not abnormal in the top down age population that are being vaccinated. And this is of course without again any casual relationship being established. Numbers and facts are not to be feared but making a list equivalent with the actual data is not right.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

Please stop responding to him. You're going around in circles and it's frustrating and annoying to read.

Annie1955
Annie1955 in reply to Spanchic

And you will probably die from covid

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Annie1955

Now now

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Inthepark

Had been tested, the all have. Accelerated research with bodies, money etc thrown at it. Normal research would have lots of gaps as they apply for more funding after analysing results etc.

Also talk of our affecting DNA is just nuts that had been disproved as misinformation. Oxford and Pfizer are 2 different types.

penny
penny in reply to desquinn

I cannot recall the exact details about Tamiflu but I think that it took the courts to get Roche to release their research data after a large number of deaths linked to Tamiflu. I’m not saying this about the latest vaccines but I have read that some scientists are not happy about the lack of full data release on some of the vaccines at the moment.

bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/101...

Absolutely agree that taking the coronavirus vaccine is a personal choice and should stay that way. Pressure being brought to bear by the use of emotional blackmail, not vaccinating will kill my granny stuff, has no scientific basis. I understand that the vaccines do not necessarily prevent one from getting the coronavirus but that the symptoms can be less severe. I have not read that being vaccinated stops transmission in the articles I have seen but am happy if someone can provide the evidence for this - not from a drug company press release.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to penny

not a great source as it is a sky Q/A "1. Does the vaccine stop transmission?

Prof Evans, a clinical trials and drug and vaccine safety expert, said: "We aren't absolutely sure of that and we will need to follow up the use of the vaccines in practice to be more sure.

"The Oxford vaccine took samples from people so they've been able to look at asymptomatic cases, so we are fairly confident that they will at least reduce transmission once they are effective.

"They will start to have some efficacy 14 days after the first jab so will probably reduce transmission, but not totally prevent it before you have your second jab.

"Pfizer didn't do any tests but you can be fairly sure they will prevent asymptomatic cases and transmission.""

Oxford did some data analysis but this sort of review will come with time after deployment.

penny
penny in reply to desquinn

Thank you for posting this, desquinn. They don’t know and a statement from Pfizer which says that ‘you can be fairly sure’ carries no weight. Time will tell with the vaccinated population being part of the trial. I’ll keep taking the vitamin D.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to penny

It was a quick look to find that but as I said the oxford trial did look at some data to to the "they think" stage which is more than I think my team will win at the weekend.....

Pfizer have not thinked along this line yet but if your are reading up on it as it seems then you will know that these "thoughts" are not unreasonable but do require more data. But the efficacy they are sure of is what is going in the messaging.

I am also not sure it is correct to say the "vaccinated population being part of the trial" as the trial was concluded and post vaccine monitoring is what will be happening. And from that they may be able to make further conclusions by doing a reflective systematic analysis or by looking and interpreting ONS data on transmission rates. But time will tell on that.

There is more reading on the potential effect the vaccines may have on stopping transmission. Here is the link the BMJ had bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4777

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to penny

Perhaps this helps BBC News - Oxford vaccine could substantially cut spreadbbc.co.uk/news/health-55910964

penny
penny in reply to desquinn

‘Could’ and ‘May’ are the operative words.

technologyreview.com/2021/0...

Time will tell. My understanding is that nothing is proven.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to penny

That's the release and we need time to move things from "signs" to"evidence" to proof.

If you read page 18 you will see slightly stronger wording and an explanation. These are post analysis from the study that was not designed for this analysis but the conclusions make a lot of sense.

But definitely we have moved from no evidence of cutting transmission.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Inthepark

I agree with it not being around for long but the DNA is not something I've seen evidence of.

I'm replying to the comment by another person, says you have to wait for 15 mins after the jab. If they're referring to the flu jab I have never experienced any waiting after being given it.

Dizzytwo
DizzytwoModerator in reply to Mrslebon1

Hi there, if you go back and re read what I wrote. I said you have to wait 15 mins after been given the covid jab not the flu jab?

I have never had the flu jab so I could not comment on it.

The covid jab been a brand new vaccine they keep you to check you

have no reactions.

Not like the flu

vaccines that have been round for years xx

Momo

dippystuff
dippystuff in reply to Dizzytwo

It's policy where I am that you need to wait 15 mins after Covid jab, but not after flu jab unless you've never had it before or you have driven yourself to the appointment. If that's the case, then you still have to wait for 15 mins after the flu jab.

Dizzytwo
DizzytwoModerator in reply to dippystuff

Hi there, thats exactly what I said. You have to wait 15 mins after the covid jab thats the government rule country wide :)

It was another member who miss read my original reply. Like I said I could not comment on how they give the flu jab at my surgery because I dont have a flu vaccine

xx

Misunderstood,

As somebody who has had COVID I can definitely say you do not want to risk it. I became very close to a hospital admission and the bit that is not published is the pain - three days awake unable to sleep. For me I was a wreck for 5 weeks and I lost a lot of muscle mass.

Life is busy for me at the moment so I am unable to spent much time here but you describe symptoms that tell me you are likely being treated incorrectly. The more I learn about this condition the more I realise that the Brain stem is affected and that causes organ problems and huge changes in nerve sensitivity. You might benefit from being referred to a neurologist. A brain scan will reveal if you have brain misfunctions which can be treated when they are understood. The problem is that we mainly get referred to Rheumatologists because of the way it "feels" and that might be a pain sensation without a physical cause and that includes touch sensitivities.

If your brain as an organ is affected then control of body functions can go wrong, hormones go wrong, digestion becomes poor and of course you mental condition may degrade. But if you tackle what is going wrong in the brain then everything else stands a chance of working. Anti-depressants have proved to be effective in arresting pain and sensitivity.

Sorry to go technical but it is to do with the Seratonin and Dopamine functions of the brain. I am not on anti-depressants but I am aware of sleep arrhythmia and elevated sensations. I am taking an Amino acid called 5-HTP which is a food supplement as a precursor of Seratonin. That hormone controls waking, sleeping and other functions but is a key regulator for Dopamine. If Dopamine is wrong in the brain nearly everything goes wrong with you body because you brain stem does not function well. I think that you need to to see a Neurologist, have your Serotonin and Dopamine levels checked and have a brain function scan. If your condition is diagnosed then it can be treated.

You sound like you should be on an anti-depressant to correct your Serotonin and Dopamine and you whole well-being should improve over about 6 months.

Anti-depressants take a while to work and can make you emotionally unstable for a few weeks as they take effect but once you are past 6 weeks the benefits start to shine through and I feel in your case you will gain physical benefits and that might surprise you.

Vaccine? Yes you should - it would be horrendous if you caught it with you current sensitivity. Love and best wishes to you in these very difficult times.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Canbedone

Thank you for such an informative reply. I am on Citalopram, as I used to pass out every time I had a hot flash. I'm going to write to my GP and explain what you've said. I've been highly sensitive from birth and growing up i actually told my GP that there's something wrong with my brain. He told me that I had a hormone imbalance and I was put on Evening Primrose as we both like to try natural remedies. I haven't been given it for years, so I will follow that up and write my letter this weekend. Thank you very, very much for giving me names that I can give to my GP😘

Saying it hasn't been "tested" for 15 years like other vaccinations is a fairly mute point, vaccines aren't "tested" for 15 years on anyone before they are released they are just given to the population after they've passed their safety tests and then time just passes as it does. They don't hold back working vaccines while they wait for millions of brave souls to risk everything so they can release it "safely" for "normal" people.....

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Cat00

The flu virus is made afresh every year. Not sure but then around time is 9 months.

The 15 year period is filled with lots of dead air. Applying for funding and awaiting a decision which will happen several times during trials takes a couple of years. Setting up for trials including big phase 3 trials again takes years. Awaiting review of results by peers, ethics bodies and funders is again more time.

Iirc the Oxford trial actually started in 2016 with its chimp flu beginnings and then with covid 19 genome (establishing genome would normally have taken longer as well ) identified in Jan they got started having already worked out what they needed to do prior to pandemic. They were already working on how do we deal with disease X when it comes along so were well placed.

So accelerated yes. Rushed no. And under more scrutiny as well as regulators around world as well as sceptics are just looking for a chink in the process as they should.

Cat00
Cat00 in reply to desquinn

Yes precisely i think the flu vaccine is a good example just bc its a different vaccine every year so we cant test that for years!

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Cat00

and the MHRA constantly watches vaccine deployments and meds to pick up on evidence of any effects to be aware of. This is normal practice and has been for ages.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

Yep, I have The Yellow Card app. It's used to report abnormal side effects to medication.

I am a biomedical research faculty and I am definitely going to receive the COVID vaccine. I have enough background knowledge to know the benefits outweigh the side effects by FAR. Please reconsider.

I was reading Sebastian Rushworth’s articles and one was talking about that those with autoimmune conditions; there were some questions from those with Hashimoto’s.

I understand your concern. My husband always reacts to the flu jab, not as severely as you describe, but still feels ill. So this year neither of us are having it because we are isolated anyway. As I currently understand it we may get a Covid jab about April, and by then we will know more to decide whether or not to have it.The point is only you can decide, advised by your loved ones. Not having it means you will have to remain shielding, possibly for many months. But by delaying it they will know more about it so you can make a sensible decision.

The virus is awful, we have had it, not bad enough for medical help but we were very ill. So you have to balance the possible effects of the jab against the possibility of being seriously ill, or at worse dying, from the virus.

Can you discuss this with your doctor or a knowledgeable medical advisor? If you do decide against it make sure your doctor knows why so you are not just considered 'difficult'.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to margaretpaloma

Thank you for such a balanced response xx

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator

for information

youtube.com/watch?v=cjrsVm3...

good article on the background to the oxford vaccine - bbc.co.uk/news/health-55041371 - addresses how they did it so quickly

I've got multiple AI disease and fully expect a flare from the vaccine because I get flares after a vaccine. But I see it this way, I can recover from a flare. I can't recover from death.

Also, as Prof Chris Whitty said this morning, herd immunity may only be able to be achieved by vaccination only, and that's only if enough people take it up.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to happytulip

Maybe if enough people have it, it'd cover the people who can't have it? 🤔 Herd immunity, I can understand.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

this is correct but it does mean there is potential for you to be at risk of catching it when the herd is relatively free of it but your isolated case would then not be a risk to the herd,

Herd immunity is about protecting the herd and not the individual and as a by product, protecting society as well. But you are mitigating that risk with self shielding.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to Hidden

Yes, but it's important to note that herd immunity via vaccine is different to potential herd immunity by catching a virus because unfortunately with CV19 it is thought that the only way that herd immunity can be obtained is via vaccine.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to happytulip

not sure if that is the case from my reading but the "natural" herd immunity without the aid of vaccine would have a very unwelcome and high death toll. We would technically get to herd immunity but the "weak" would die as well as others and that's what we want to avoid.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to desquinn

Yes, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I do understand where you are coming from. I personally don't hold out any good outcome of herd immunity without a vaccine as people have got covid twice and any length of immunity to CV19 if at all, is unknown.I was speaking to my immunology consultant this morning. He has warned me that I may not have any up take of the Covid vaccines currently on offer. That's why I'm hoping that others will have it, for themselves and for people like me. Fortunately I know that a vaccine is being worked on for people whos immune systems are so "altered" that they will need a special one that is currently in development, however he warned that this is a long way off at present. ....and he used the word altered, not me. I prefer the word wonky, or just plain crappy!

Either way I'm pretty sure that I'll be wearing a mask this time next wear when going out.

😀

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to happytulip

I am also interested in some of the other vaccines as my OH is on transplant meds. Also the conversation about natural herd immunity is quite nuanced with mutations and peoples behaviour. Bottom line it is practically possible but not the desired or optimal route.

Its possible to prepare for a marathon on rice and water diet but probably not the easiest or best way to do it :)

Hidden
Hidden in reply to happytulip

I understood what you meant and I fully agree. It's not a matter or to take or not to take. More a case of which and when and how safe for my particular situation. I don't believe that one size fits all.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to Hidden

That's exactly what my immunologist said today.

If you're immune deficient or immune compromised, it's important to get the vaccine that suits you.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to happytulip

But people with fibro would not be in this bracket unless they have an additional condition.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to desquinn

Agreed, I was just discussing the vaccine in general. But that's not to say that people with fibro shouldn't seek advice to see what vaccine is best advised for them.

Equally, alot of people with immune deficiency have fibro too.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

You said " More a case of which and when and how safe for my particular situation. I don't believe that one size fits all."

With respect I do not think you will be in a position to decide what is most appropriate for you unless there is something in your medical situation that definitively excludes you from some of the vaccines.

to my knowledge this may only be people that are very immuno surpressed and not people with what they consider a poor immune system. We are talking about people that typically cannot get live vaccines because they have had their immune system wiped out intentionally.

Perhaps chemo / transplant people will get specific advice but again that would be from the medical professional and if they say it it is best to take A o rtake B then that's the best course of action.

I or you cannot make that call on the balance of knowledge of expertise. But we can decide not to take anything as it does not feel right. But this is emotion and not science led.

Not judging, as it is obvious you have concerns but it is ironically a faith based decision :) do you trust your doctor and that backing of medical science or do you trust your fear of the unknown.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

I agree with everything you said that's why I'm going to discuss this with my GP. Just collecting information, so we will have something to discuss. I'm fortunate that I have a GP now that I do trust as he sits down and discusses everything with me before WE come to a decision which suits both of us. I never make decisions based on my emotions.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to happytulip

Herd immunity is something that mankind has had for eons. If Whitty is alleging the contrary, he is spouting pseudoscience nonsense.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

Different ways to get herd immunity and vaccines do it without chilling the weak.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to Londinium

This Corona virus hasn't been around for eons though has it? And diseases such as polio and small pox weren't eradicated through herd immunity, vaccines did that.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to happytulip

Herd immunity is a target with a number of ways of getting there. Vaccines and therapeutics are essential. Parties and ignorance are not helpful as the weak will be the casualties and the death rate will be higher.

happytulip
happytulip in reply to desquinn

Hey, I never said I was out partying and I'm certainly not ignorant to the situation. I had a career in medicine before being medically retired. I'm in the ECV group and have been shielding alone since last Feb. I'm all for the vaccine and was just reiterating what Prof Witty had said about herd immunity.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to happytulip

Sorry I was not suggesting you were partying. Was giving the good and bad examples of getting to herd immunity.

I will definitely have the vaccine when it's offered, I shielded in the first lockdown, but now I do go out grocery shopping once a week. For me it's a no brainer as I have COPD. However I think that you should speak to your GP about your misgivings.

Hi. I have severe allergies and carry an Epi pen at all times got first shingles injection no problems .2nd one put me in a flare so bad lasted 2 months .not taking vaccine until there is more known .

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Jeep95

That's exactly how I feel. My flare ups last for years!

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Jeep95

With your epi pen your I think the first person IMO that has cause to pause so to speak. But, the people that have had allergic reactions have been relatively mild and resolved with epi and the care of the vaccinators. They have measures in place to account for allergy reactions. But it is not a given you would have a reaction.

Again following medical advice and assessing personal risk is the right way to go.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd definitely have the vaccination. The side effects of the jab (as awful as they are) are nowhere as severe as the effects of having Covid 19 infection.Shielding patients are being screened and offered the vaccine.

As an aside, I've just spent 2.5 hrs this morning helping a colleague who collapsed at work (she had Covid 19 infection last year and had returned to work after getting the all clear). However, she is still breathless with any exercise, very weak and unable to do much, still sounds 'chesty' and gets faint often, and that's months after having Covid. She's now in A&E as she needed oxygen.

There is always a remote chance of an adverse reaction to anything we eat, absorb, inhale or inject into our bodies.Vaccinations are there to reduce the much greater risk of contracting a life threatening or changing disease.

If you weigh up the choice between "this disease has a good chance of killing or seriously disabling you" against "this vaccine has a tiny chance of giving you an adverse reaction" I think the conclusion is obvious.

The most dangerous part of having a vaccination is the journey to the clinic but we still get out of bed in the morning (when we can)

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Carlt

The last injection I had seriously disabled me, hence me worrying. I would rather shield for years and get a vaccine suited for me, than chance being more disabled than I am now. That's why I'm extremely particular about what I eat, absorb, inhale or inject into my body as my reactions are always adverse.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Hidden

As is your choice.

Like most folk here I too have health concerns other than fibro.

Personally if there is a way to avoid adding to my problems I'll take it.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Carlt

I agree x. I just wanted to hear other views, rather than just family or the government. Didn't expect such a response from everyone. It's been very informative

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Hidden

One thing I've learnt over the years is that the last people I can rely on for advice or empathy is the government, who are completely incompetent, or my family, who just want to compare notes on their aches and pains.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Carlt

That is so true. I was listening to a song called They Don't Know by Chronixx and I just cried. This group is the best. I'm so glad I came across it as they understand my daily struggles which people either do not see or choose not to see.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

If you weigh up the choice between "this disease has a good chance of killing or seriously disabling you" against "this vaccine has a tiny chance of giving you an adverse reaction" I think the conclusion is obvious.

My viewpoint is, probably, the other way around to your above statement re "disease" vs "vaccine". I therefore prefer to take immune-supporting natural supplements from autumn through to spring, each year.

In Section II of the MHRA procuring contract, it is stated:

"The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADR's)..."

ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:N...

And on page 16 of the enc. FDA doc (below) the known list of potential adverse events is stated:

fda.gov/media/143557/download

 Guillain-Barré syndrome

 Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis

 Transverse myelitis

 Encephalitis/myelitis/encephalomyelitis/ meningoencephalitis/meningitis/ encepholapathy

 Convulsions/seizures

 Stroke

 Narcolepsy and cataplexy

 Anaphylaxis

 Acute myocardial infarction

 Myocarditis/pericarditis

 Autoimmune disease

 Deaths

 Pregnancy and birth outcomes

 Other acute demyelinating diseases

 Non-anaphylactic allergic reactions

 Thrombocytopenia

 Disseminated intravascular coagulation

 Venous thromboembolism

 Arthritis and arthralgia/jointpain

 Kawasaki disease

 Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children

 Vaccine enhanced disease

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

Being alert to adverse reactions is being responsible. A fever that stops you going to work for a day is an adverse reaction. But better than a week on a ventilator. There is a 1 in 77 risk in the us of dying in a car accident but people still drive.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

I welcome the clinical trials of "immune-supporting natural supplements" and, once approved and shown to be as effective as conventional medicine, will be happy to accept a prescription from a qualified doctor.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

You're welcome to do what you want. I do what I want. And I don't tell people what they should or should not do.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

Neither do I. Like you I have merely expressed an opinion although my opinion is based on sound, peer reviewed studies.

I am more than happy to see any you have to offer.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

So you were unaware of the existence of those two links of the 2 well-known agencies, that related directly to covid-19 vaccine adverse effects.

I suggest you follow your path, and I'll follow mine. I've no interest in whether you choose to take vaccines or natural supplements.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

I am well aware of any adverse reactions, contra-indications and risks involved with any medicines I may take...That is the nature of conventional medicine.

When alternative medicine undergoes, and passes, the same clinical trials that conventional medicine is subjected to it becomes...guess what?...conventional medicine.

One of the things that some people claim is that old people and the vulnerable are being used as the next round of human trials but isn't that really the case for everyone who chooses to use untested alternative therapies (as is their right)?

At least the information about the possible risks of the vaccine you have cited is available because of clinical trials so we have an opportunity to make an informed choice, as opposed to purely anecdotal evidence.

My point is that the MHRA is doing the responsible thing by preparing for adverse reactions that are inevitable in a mass vaccination programme and the reason you have a list of possible side effects and adverse reactions to show me is because the vaccine has undergone clinical trials.

Your links reinforce my faith in conventional medicine...Thank you.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Carlt

What I wonder is what are they meant to have done instead? These are practical, sensible documents from last year from regulatory bodies that are responsible for reportable events. They are talking about advanced medical surveillance systems to report on any effects in case they can cause harm. So they are empowered to react appropriately and sensibly.

To not do this would have been unethical and negligent. Using these resources to support vaccine hesitancy if that is the aim is the same as holding up the pause on allergic reactions in the initial Pfizer vaccine program. No, that is like this systems being designed to prevent harm and give time to reflect.

"Your links reinforce my faith in conventional medicine...Thank you." - agree 100%

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

I thought I was clear, that I'm uninterested in arguing with you over your personal decisions - or over mine. And therefore, I'm also uninterested in being drawn into your argument re so-called "anti-vaxxers and covid deniers".

We're all adults - or so I thought. We have our own views and should not be subjected to labels/smears that are clearly intended to be derogatory. If you want to be pro vax, anti vax or just on the fence - that's great! Whatever you choose for yourself is fine by me.

I, equally, have my own views.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

Okay. That's fine.

I would point out that it was you who began this little debate with "My viewpoint is, probably, the other way around to your above statement..."

I merely entered into a discussion because you appeared to show an interest.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

Yes, my viewpoint is likely to differ from yours. But that's no reason to use derogatory labelling in your reply. I still, however, wish you good luck with your medical decisions.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

I believe "antivaxxers" and "covid deniers" are more than happy with their moniker and it wasn't intended to be derogatory in any way.

I am happy to remove the terms (in fact I have done) but my point about your links being good and responsible things that are missing in alternative therapies and should give folk confidence in the due diligence accorded to conventional medicine definitely stands.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

And my comments definitely still stand. But as I said before, good luck with your personal medical decisions.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

Thank you but I don't rely on luck...I rely on strict clinical trials undertaken to make medicine as safe as possible.

Good luck to you too.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

Clinical trials can be manipulated to give different impressions. My phrase was one of goodwill. But you've used it to continue arguing. If you didn't/don't like my goodwill phrase of "good luck", please just disregard it. I'm not interested in arguing about clinical trials or about anything else with you.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

If you are not interested in discussing it why start with "Clinical trials can be manipulated to give different impressions" which invites further discussion.

The fact that any trial can be manipulated is precisely why we have peer reviews and then constant monitoring after a new drug is approved.

Conventional medicine is all about trialing, testing and diligently looking for issues.

As a scientist my job was to have an idea and then try my very best to prove myself wrong.

This is the nature of science and it was in my interests to be as thorough as possible because the next stage was for my colleagues to(enthusiastically) try and prove me wrong and then, when a paper was published or product released, every one of my peers in other organisations then tried to prove me wrong (or improve on my science).

I would rather rely on peer reviewed clinical trials than untested alternative therapies.

Now if you no longer wish to discuss this topic can I suggest you stop because I can go on forever if invited to (and frequently do)?

Londinium
Londinium in reply to Carlt

I replied to your statement: "I rely on strict clinical trials undertaken to make medicine as safe as possible." The fact that you drag in anti-vax, covid denial, clinical trials, etc, etc, etc... indicates that you just want to argue with me. As I said before, you are free to make your medical decisions and walk your path as you wish, choose, like or see fit.

And I shall do the same. Over and out.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

On a forum such as this you cannot be sure of the last word as people have the right of reply. Whether by PM or as a post if someone makes a statement than another feels is incorrect then replying is to be expected.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Londinium

I don't want an argument...I want a discussion. Why else frequent a discussion forum if not to discuss? I fully expect my opinions or knowledge to be challenged and enjoy the chance to respond.You mentioned links pertinent to clinical trials and expressed opinions that suggested scepticism towards vaccination. My responses were perfectly relevant, reasonable and polite.

We have now entered a circular argument about discussion itself, not the topic so, unless you have anything further to add that is relevant to the thread I will leave the last word to you.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Carlt

Londinium / Carlt

The words themselves i.e. Covid deniers and antivaxxers are descriptors and as carlt says they are self descriptors within their community. They definitely have a pejorative feel to them from people that disagree with that view point.

Words on their own are not the only criteria for them be in appropriate as the tone and context is important as well. However, nothing so far would concern me or I suspect the rest of the team. Covidiots would be much quicker to draw some action but it has been used on here and not removed.

Anti Vaccination promotion on here would result in content being removed as it has done in the past. But Vaccine Hesitancy will be addressed as well as we can. There are personal choices for people to make but the promotion or convincing of others on the basis of bad science or information should be addressed whether it is covid or a pocket size cold fusion battery.

I do however draw parallels between people denying covid exists and its impact with the same view of those that deny climate change. We can disagree on what the best way to resolve the issue but its not right to deny its existence.

Also as said elsewhere I am not pro vaccine but pro science and evidence. It informs my views and approach and also why I have participated on this and other threads. I welcome people correcting me on mistakes I have made or cited as I learn from that.

LisaSnow
LisaSnow in reply to desquinn

You have the patience of a saint! 😃

Hidden
Hidden in reply to desquinn

My original post asked for people's personal reasons for not having it. I wanted people to state their case not attack each other. The final decision is always going to be personal. For everyone!!

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Hidden

The problem is that something that is of such huge benefit to the community is not necessarily a decision best left for the individual to make.

Anyone who is vulnerable should obviously follow informed medical advice but, in my opinion, anyone who is not at risk but chooses the ill-informed opinions of conspiracists over medical professionals should remove themselves from the society they have so little regard for.

I won't be asking David icke to perform my heart surgery so why should I regard his, and his cohorts' other opinions on medical matters with any more respect?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Carlt

I would hate to be forced to have the Vaccine. I think it should be like the flu jab, left to the individual to make an informed choice based on a discussion with their GP.

Carlt
Carlt in reply to Hidden

I agree on the whole but I think it is such a shame that libertarian conspiracists have convinced so many people that individual freedom outweighs the wellbeing of the community.

I don't particularly like the phrase but in these particular times the needs of the many really do outweigh the desires of the few.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Carlt

Libertarian principle is I should be able to do what I like as long as it does not harm others. I do feel they are not living up to that principle.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Hidden

I do not think people will be forced to have that vaccine as all the noise at present is affirming this long held principle. But it would not surprised if people are indirectly pressured to have it. Just like New York schools stopped people attending unless they had measles shots there will be similar reactions I am sure, Quantas already indicating that they will require people to show proof of vaccination in the future.

As a fierce libertarian this is a difficulty one but I would be in favour of people having the choice but society limiting harm.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations

pace.coe.int/en/files/29004...

7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

Couple of things of which the first would be that it does not apply to the UK but as I said all the noise at present is that this is also the UK position. But this is a governments stance and private companies have different priorities and risk envelopes. Pimlico plumbers will only be hiring people that have had the vaccine for example.

If you are an employer or a business then you have liability for managing risk. So in the example of Quantas. They could be held liable for people catching and dying from covid if it was reasonable to expect that everyone after a certain point was vaccinated. Its a hypothetical but you can see the point of it.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

Pimlico Plumbers and Qantas etc will be legally challenged, as they have no right to dictate that someone injects something into their body - it is disturbing that such a thing must even be said/reminded.

We each, as individuals, have the right to bodily autonomy and true informed consent - without force or coercion.

Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations

pace.coe.int/en/files/29004...

7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

There are limits to "bodily autonomy" like free speech. Saying fire in a cinema and causing death would leave you liable.

Ebola zones in Africa like our lockdown stopped movement and restricted liberty. So personal choice to continually shield is still there. But the best example that comes to mind is the person infected with aids or other STD passing it on in full knowledge of their condition without respect to the victims.

There are already health screens on NHS personnel before they are employed and a requirement for tetanus and other vaccines. The choice is still with the individual but it is a condition of employment.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

Shouting "fire!" in a cinema has little to do with this discussion.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

"Shouting "fire!" in a cinema has little to do with this discussion."

I am sure you do not believe that or can see the parallels. It is a clear and often used example of the rights and freedoms of the individuals balanced against the needs or responsibility of society!

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

I suggest you listen to what Vera Sharav, holocaust survivor, says on the issue of the individual's right to bodily autonomy, and on the issue of informed consent without force or coercion.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

I am not in anyway advocating the lack of patient choice but that is not without responsibility or potential consequences. And again it is a hypothetical but given some businesses are indicating or obligated then we will see it become less hypothetical. But people will still have choice.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

Force does not = choice

Coercion does not = choice

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

appreciation of consequence does not equal lack of choice. The terminally ill person that denies chemo and dies early had a choice and knew the consequence. The cancer patient that had their immune system nuked and stayed in a bubble had choice and knew consequence.

none of what is mentioned above is force or coercion but society doing what it needs to as it sees it. We may not like it but that is the choice that others make and we have to fit around it. And as you mentioned courts may adjudicate as these are difficult choices with consequences. But if the courts say Quantas is correct in its application of rules then there will still be the choice of whether to fly with them or to fly at all. Or the choice to stay in the house.

Londinium
Londinium in reply to desquinn

Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations

7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator in reply to Londinium

Just to add to this as I like the hypothetical Venn diagram of libertarian views, public health and ethics. Here is a paper on the seat belt analogy - academic.oup.com/phe/articl...

I do try and think from the perspective of those involved as it is not an easy choice or vocation to try and do the best for the many....

Since there are many with RA here, just wanted to share the published new findings that patients with inflammatory rheumatic disease were more likely to be admitted (to the hospital) with COVID-19 than the general population, and COVID-19 admitted patients with RA could be at higher risk of a severe outcome (Cordtz et all, 28 December 2020, Rheumatology).

This is another reason why getting vaccinated is especially important for us.

Just completed my booking for the 18th with second one on the 1st of March. Work in social care so a total no brainer for me🤞

Only you know how things impact your body. No-one else can truly understand that.

So you have to do what you feel is right for you. And I’m sure if you said “no” to the vaccine initially, you could get it later if you wanted to. It’s not a one time offer as far as I know!

I’ll be getting it, but I’d completely understand if you didn’t want to risk it. And I don’t think you should feel bad about it - you have a genuine reason not to. And you have little social contact.

Ultimately, do what feels right in your gut. And know that you can have it later if you don’t want it straight away xx

Hidden
Hidden in reply to LoneEra

I'm having as much contact now as I did before I was shielding. I've just been told that I've been allocated a carer (which I've been holding off for years),I've asked my care worker to give me two weeks to get used to the idea and sort my home out. I'm a bit concerned about having someone in my home but I've got a sanitiser maker, so I'll be making plenty for her visit.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator

We have had some posts about the possible adverse effects of vaccines which is something people are concerned about with a vaccine being our way out of the current restrictions on our society.

this list being shared is of possible known reactions to previous vaccines and not any of the current vaccines. In fact when you look at an article from the history of vaccines in 2018 you can see the same list with ratios. (historyofvaccines.org/conte...)

Also reports from the CDC VAERS (equivalent of our MHRA yellow card scheme for vaccines) then you see that the incidence of reports is very low. (aafp.org/news/health-of-the...) but it is early days but it shows they are keeping an eye on how things are progressing. Jan 28th report showed that there were 7844 reports for 10.6 million people which is an even lower ratio than the Jan 8th report.

This event data is in the public domain so you can see the headache and recovery data and whether it required a hospital visit. Whether the patient had allergies and what thr write up was/

i.e. Write-up: At 12:55 pm 10 minutes following vaccine being given states feeling lightheaded and flush. Was sitting in the chair. Encouraged him to lay down on the floor which he did on his own. Feet elevated. BP 174/70 pulse 82. Denies any other complaints. Laid on floor for 15 minutes then sat in chair. Denies complaints. 1:15 pm was allowed to leave. BP 120/80 and states feeling fine.

People have fear and some are hesitant over taking these new vaccines but they have been tested and are being supervised intensely. There are plenty of people with a vested interest in pulling apart this data for good or ill.

As said before I am pro science rather than pro vaccine but these align at present. If someone has a position that is counter to the science then they should be able to back it up rather than increase levels of fear. We have enough going on.

desquinn
desquinnAdministrator

Posted this elsewhere but will add here as well just in case:

Update - Looked for the MHRA info this morning and there was not anything but now there is an article that has the data within it and you can find it here: bbc.co.uk/news/health-55946912

"it assessed safety reports from nearly seven million doses given up to 24 January - mostly with the Pfizer jab.

Some 22,820 suspected reactions were reported. Around three in every 1,000 people vaccinated were affected. Almost all cases were mild, such as a sore arm or flu-like illness."

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