Since September I’ve been seeing an NHS physio for upper back/shoulder/neck pain which has been going for about 10 years and is mainly caused by stress and anxiety - which has improved a fair bit but my muscles don't know that and carry on hurting. It keeps me awake and affects my life on a daily basis. I’m also an insomniac so my sleep is always…. shite. But you get used to it after 13 odd years….almost!
So 2 weeks ago she tells me that I should be running every day. When I explain about muscle tears etc. she says that’s not true and only applies to squats and the like. She tells me to definitely run every day. And start weights to build muscle in my back. I go away and duly do the weights and carry on running - every other day. c25k has drummed it into me.
She says lack of sleep is the main cause for all of this and I should see the senior physio who can help. After so many years of this with no support (a particularly evil doctor showed me the door on several occasions so I stopped going) I’m all ears
So I met the senior physio today and he says to stop running. No impact exercise - it’s too much of a stimulant, adrenaline hormones are a no-no. And no weights. Only gentle stretching and a brisk walk at night. I've got to do mindfulness exercises for a month as part of a ‘programme’ that's going to get rid of this eventually…. which is basically sitting in a slouched position and sighing a lot. Or swinging my arms a lot. Feeling the weight of gravity on my body and doing a ‘mindfulness body scan’ every day.
BIG fat s*dding sighs (in a slouched position). They’ve managed to completely contradict themselves and I’ve completely lost faith. I want to help myself but for God’s sake!!! They’ve both commented on how tight the muscles in my neck and shoulders are, but no one’s actually tried to alleviate that in any way!!
Well, there is NO WAY I am giving up running… It’s change me inside and out, it gives me a better perspective than I’ve had in years, I feel more capable in an increasingly incapable world, I’m fitter than I’ve been for 20 years. I’ve overcome fears and anxieties and I’ve still got more to do. I’ll go with the Mindfulness (because what other options do I have?) but I’ll still do my running… it’s the only thing that keeps me (in) sane!!!
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Oh FPF. How bloody frustrating. And why would anyone in their right mind recommend giving up running? A form of exercise that is fantastic for cardio-vascular health, good for happy inducing endorphins, and general well being? I don't get that.
Mindfulness could be useful and definitely worth a shot. And yoga - have you tried that? There are specific postures good for back/shoulders and gentle stuff that you can do before bed to help with relaxation/sleep.
Whatever, I am wishing you well. Anxiety is tricky, I know. <Hug>
Thanks very much I don't get it either!! Very weird and disconcerting.... I am starting yoga again, I love the relaxation bit at the end and doing the yoga breath.....so dreamy! zzzzzzzz
Seriously - unbelievably frustrating! If you're able to point out to each of them that they are in complete contradiction, that might be.... interesting. Of course, we *know* the "keep running" is better than not running, but I'm intrigued as to the idea that the muscle tears aren't a thing....
Mindfulness is great too, as long as whatever you're doing is ... good. Have to say that the mindfulness that's come attached to the yoga I've done hasn't involved slouching and sighing, but feeling grounded and doing body scans is definitely in there. I suppose elongating your out-breath is close to sighing? That's a quick way of bringing down your heartbeat and stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system which calms you down.
Now we've got "runrunrunrunrun" physio and "running is BAD, m'kay?" physio to add to your cast of characters, but they aren't half as entertaining as the others you write about ...
I could say a thing or two about them, but I think I should keep schtum! They were both in the room at the time, I was looking at them both with incredulous eyes..... like whaaaat?? But nothing... Yes I think yoga and mindfulness are pretty similar - I prefer yoga but I will give them both a go and keep running! Thanks for the info that's really helpful
It sounds like a truly bizzare situation then! Wonder whether they planned it - or whether they had some interesting words afterwards?
When I started yoga as an adult it was with a restorative yoga therapist so we did lots of mindfulness as well - a few things she said were that back bends were "activating", whereas forward ones are more calming (think child's pose with your forehead touching the mat or on a block) - but the back bends will help release shoulder tension. As with many things, you need a balance She gave me things like shoulder rolls to do for tension there but I don't have much pain as you do. Wish I was qualified to say more - the whole field is amazing and helpful.
Get a third physio. The first one is a sociopath, the second suffers from crisis confidence. You need a proper sports physio. Google them, unearth them, they do exist and some can fix even a guy like me.
Love your summing up of them!! I'm already paying out for a private osteopath who's more of a friend I've been going so long, she's great, but I need her every week and I can't afford that. I'll probably have to bite the bullet, but it's all trial and error and expensive. Still, can't put a price on health eh?
I was a disheveled marionette. Lower back, shoulder blade, porcelain knee and ankle. GP suggested 'light' swimming and ibuprofen.
Osteopath fixed back and shoulder, physio put knee and ankle back together. At 40 quid a pop each, twice per week at times, for a few months I figured l could fly premium economy return to LA, plus a hotel.
Alas. It hurt too much and dear people from MasterCard made sure all got done.
All could have been avoided by better care in my 'previous' life but hey...l knew better....
Anyhow, l hope somebody, somehow fixes it for you - getting through to the other side pain free is priceless
Oh my God poor you! Amazing that they could fix all that! It give me hope....I hear exactly what you are saying.... off to research interest free credit cards!!
Arrrgh, how annoying - A good sports physio if you can afford one for an assessment - they'll aim to keep you running - and it seems invaluable to you. I do pilates which has made a massive difference to my back & shoulders - although I don't have chronic pain - good luck and I hope things improve
Hi, Fishypieface, I agree somewhat with what the senior physio said about stimulation. If I run at night I find it difficult to sleep so I try to run in the mornings. A walk at night with the dog is a good way to finish the day.
Do you watch tv or use a computer in the evenings? I'd say leave them alone after about 7pm. Read or listen to soothing music while sleeping. One of the greatest things, for me, to fall asleep to is the sound of rain. I like this one, played quietly. It's no good if you don't like thunderstorms though
Thanks for all of the suggestions I have let some lapse (laptop!) so I need to get back on track with that and just read at night.... love to but get absorbed in the internet (i.e. here!!)
My Sports Physio who got me back on the running path after my calf tear..IS a runner himself and really good one....
Stress and anxiety as you, and many of us already know, hit those neck and shoulder muscles in a big way. Sometimes I feel as if my shoulders are up by my ears! I did some years ago see a Sports Physio and he gave me some great exercises... ) there was a lot of talk about posture etc! They were all exercises using the Alexander technique. They really helped and I still use them when necessary.
You know the benefits you are getting from this... go you!
Thanks, I don't seem to be getting any of that from these two! I think Sports Physio is calling - never thought I need to being using one of those in my life!!
Sorry to hear you're having all this trouble, Fishypieface. But I'm glad you're going to be doing yoga again. I think it could help you a lot on many of the health aspects you mention. I have done it twice a week for about three years and found it, in a word, life-changing! Good luck.
Good idea. You clearly have all the self-discipline needed to graduate at c25k, so I'm sure you could get into a yoga routine too. Sadieruns mentioned a yoga app, Yoga Studios. Think I'll look into it. Enjoy yourself!
It's very good - even has a "stretches for runners" routine. Loads of different classes (according to length of practice and ability). You do have to pay a subscription but it's not much. I have been using it for my home practice for years!
Blimey! Thats really hard on you . Its really sad to hear too, it all seems very bizarre! Physios usually do a great job, but this all seems very odd.
Is there a sports physio you can pay to see? My local running shop also has a Physio service attached, probably others do similarly.
Yoga and mindfulness go together well and naturally. If you have a smart tv you can have a yoga session when ever you want. Lots to choose from so have a good try out ( not all at once teehee). The mindfulness I know is nothing like you have been pointed to. There are phone apps for mindfulness which might be of use.
Also, might be worth getting a sports massage occasionally to help those neck and shoulder muscles to relax.
I do hope you get this sorted FPF. Try to keep the running if you can, you already know its helping from what you say.
Thanks that's so helpful to hear I do have a smart tv, I didn't know about yoga through that.... this place is the best, thanks!! I will try and get my technophobe brain into gear with sorting that out!!
Just go on the TV and choose YouTube . Have a good look, lots of different presenters and types/styles. I like Ekhart yoga presented by Ester Ekhart, as she has a quiet manner. You can choose calming, stretching, core, runners yoga.......choose what might suit and give it a whirl. Never do a move that pains you. For example I take care of my knees.
Relax with it and try to follow the ‘in hale’ ‘exhale’ elements mindfully.......it will help relaxation and ‘grounding’.......which really means being in the moment and thinking about what you are doing and how you feel. At the end do the Savasana and hold for a while.....this is you time.
I second the recommendation for pilates. I've suffered with similar for years, and the pilates is what has made the biggest difference. I really notice if I've missed a few classes, and find I'm more tense during a run without the pilates, so try to ensure I'm getting a mic off the two for mind, body and soul!
Pilates is based on Yoga techniques but aims to strengthen, particularly core. It might be worth doing yoga as a start and aim for relaxation. Then add in an occasional Pilates and see how you go.
I was enjoying running and asked my doctor if I could run everyday. She said, "NO!" but told me to keep up my running every other day. I was thinking massage might help you, like some of the others on your post think.... I walk on my "off" days. I need the exercise to relieve stress. (I am a caregiver for someone with mild dementia.)
Yes, the first physio said massage, I thought oh good, shall I lie on the couch.... no, go and pay for it somewhere else! But she's a NHS physio..... who won't actually do anything other than talk.... I know about dementia, you definitely need stress release. I will be walking on my off days too thanks.
Just wanted to say I didn't get my run in today due to my schedule and here I am up at 3:30-4 in the morning feeling cranky! I went for a couple massages a while back and the masseuse poked and jabbed at my neck muscles, saying, "Boy, are you ever tense!".... Soon there will be sun up here (I'm in Michigan in the States,) and I'll be able to get that missed run in. Best of luck to you!
Running caused me to lose sleep at first as my legs were really twitchy. I think it’s like being wired up to the mains 😁.
I once completely locked up with stress and ended up in a chiropractic office. He sorted me out but the stress has to be dealt with do you can crack on
Running is a great stress release. Oxygen across your brain works wonders and you feel much better. As you run further you get tired. I could sleep for England now
Juicy Ju has a stressful job and she does a short run everyday it might be just under a km but not more than 3 but she didn’t do it til after graduation, and then some 🙂
It sounds like you will have to try running and not running and then compare the two. Good luck 🙂😃👍
Sounds like physio 2 is talking about running getting the endorphins going and making it hard to sleep. I had an issue with sleep if I ran in the evening when I first started. I found that not running too late and having a cool shower after meant that was less of a problem and now I don't seem to have an issue with sleep at all, although I still won't go out for a run after about 7pm to make sure I have time to cool and wind down before bed. Cooling down is easier now we are in winter temperatures.
But if the running isn't stopping you sleeping then of course keep going. If I need a physio I am going to make sure I find one that runs. Easy to do in London buy maybe harder elsewhere.
Sounds like you have all the elements you need to sort your problems without giving up running. Good luck.
good advice thanks, I think I need to make sure to defo get a running physio! I run in the morning but the physio would like me to stop and do a mindfulness body scan instead. But I can do that on my off days. Running keeps me going. Thanks for your help
Running in the morning won't stop you sleeping. You can run and do a mindfulness body scan. It's not one or the other, surely. Find a physio who likes running. It would take injury to stop me running.
That is so hard and very confusing for you. I don’t really know what to say. The only way I can help is to share my own personal experience. During difficult times. (My other half has just had to have a kidney transplant) I get very stressed and my sleep patterns go out the window. I use exercise to help me sleep. Like you, I hold my stress in my neck and shoulders. I have had so much stress that I got a frozen shoulder twice and I was stopped running for three months, which was very hard but as soon as I could my sports physio got me back to running. At its worst, the reason I was stopped running was because of the impact on the injury, as soon as I got a bit more movement back with Stregnth exercises I was allowed to run. For the sleep I use an app by a guy called Andrew Johnson called deep sleep, I pop my phone under my pillow and fall asleep to the podcast. It is not for everyone but for a couple of quid I was so glad I gave it a shot. I still don’t sleep the best (menopause) but it is so much better than it used to be. I was lucky enough that my NHS physio was in a sports injury clinic so when they tell you you can’t run they really mean it, i would maybe do a little reasearch on your two physios and see what their background are, they all have different areas of expertise, just like gp’s, if one has a sports background then personally that is who I would go with.
I been using Andrew Johnson’s DeStress app for years. I use it for getting power naps during the day. Probably not what you want, but he is good. He uses hypnotic techniques. At first I’d just lie there giggling but I found the more I use it the better it works. If I use it regularly (3-4 times a week) I can do a 20 minute destress including a brief sleep pretty easily and feel greatly improved after. So might be worth trying one of his apps consistently for a little while: it could work for you too!
Thank you for your help, I am so sorry that you are going through your own difficulties at the moment, I can imagine that is incredibly stressful I hope your partner recovers quickly and that you are looking after yourself at the same time.
Interestingly the first physio (run every day) was the sporty one, the mindfulness one does no exercise (weird for a physio!!). It doesn't hurt when I run so I am of the mind to carry on, running in the mornings whilst trying other relaxation wind down stuff at night.
Everyone's been so helpful, I'm overwhelmed - as always - with the wonderful support on here
We are doing fine now, thank you for your kind words. I gave one of my kidneys to my other half in March this year so we are both getting back to life and enjoying ourselves, 😀.
Oh wow... Such a life changing thing for both of you to go through. Glad to hear that you are getting back on track, I expect that's been a long recovery process. Wishing you both the very best of health and lots of happiness for the future, I think you might deserve it!
I really wish I was surprised by your health professional predicament, but I'm not... I'd have called them out in front of each other..!!
I see my Chiro/CST once a month - she's a sickeningly beautiful hardened triathlete. I started seeing her 2 years ago due to chronic neck / shoulder problems and acute tendonitis in my right upper arm. The pain was constant and horrendous - not sleeping, blah, blah, blah. My shoulder then froze. Just as that was getting better, it all kicked off (exactly the same again) in my left arm and shoulder 🤦🏻♀️
I hold every negative emotion I have in my jaw, neck and shoulders. My lovely Chiro takes one look at me and says "OK, who are you p*ssed off with now"..?? 😂
I often wear my shoulders as earrings and when I run I can hear Oldfloss in my ear telling me to ... "RELAX"..!! 😆
Ester Ekhart was recommended to me some time again as a do-at-home. As mentioned above, she accessible and very good (she'd probably be even better if I got my a*rse in gear and followed her regularly) 🙄 Mindfulness also gets the thumbs up from me..!! 👍🏻
At the end of the day YOU are the only one who knows your body, how it feels and it's capabilities. The key is making sure you listen to it carefully and act on anything you feel is a bit out of kilter.
If anyone told me now that I had to stop running, they'd have to visit a health professional to fix their nose..!! 😷
Wise words me dear! God it sounds like you've been through the mill with it all, frozen shoulder is no laughing matter but twice?!!! My heart goes out to you. There are so many of us suffering with this kind of thing, is it a reflection of the stressful world we live in these days?
I never thought writing this post I would be inspired with so many ideas for self improvement and the life stories of you all lovely lot. This place is just the best. You are right I do know best!! My husband would add that's true for everything (if he knows what's good for him!!)
Same here, not the sleeping part but I too have neck and shoulder pain from slipped disc etc. The docs said don't run cos u move arms and this will worsen pain. Also said muscles shortening generally. Stopped running for five months, pain easier in shoulder and neck 🙂 But now have back pain cos I put on a stone from doing nothing 😔. Definitely would say yoga is helpful but otherwise do what you want and stop if it hurts too much. Good luck
Thanks I think because mine is muscular it doesn't actually hurt when I run (weird but I am very grateful!!!) just all other times!! We know our own bodies don't we... I will take it slowly and see what happens.... and do some yoga most definitely!
Oh blimey! What a blinking palaver. I have had three shoulder replacements - so I feel for you! Going from pillar to post and getting different advice from experts is sooooo frustrating. And I know you have probably tried everything - but - (advice alert) try and go through your day to see what sets the pain off worst. I worked at the computer all day, and realised that the arms on my chair made me hutch (probably Northern term) my shoulders up as I typed. Getting a chair with no arms definitely helped. Consciously pull your shoulders down.
And, as long as you feel it's doing you good - keep on running! Certainly helped with my shoulders, and hip and knee, oh and toes. Sorry - you have probably heard and done this all before, but we (as in everyone on this forum) wish you well.
Ah thank you!! 3 Shoulder replacements?? My God, you poor thing. Honestly, I do love this place so much, because it helps me realise just what everyone else has been through. And we are all still running. There's hope, right there!! Thanks
A conundrum indeed and so disappointing to have such polar opposite opinions from healthcare specialists. I have similar health issues and my advice to you is simple, listen to your body and do as much as you can to keep it fit & healthy. Always difficult to give advice as the world & his wife will have opinions but for what it’s worth, I find that regular deep tissue massage, Bikram (hot) yoga and swimming help me enormously. And since starting the C25K I feel even better. If running is working for you then why stop? I never thought I could do it and it is helping me on so many levels. My joints actually feel better. It may also be worthwhile reviewing your diet if you haven’t already done so. Good luck & hope you are soon feeling better. 👍😊
Asking for the references is a good way to forestall some of this stuff!
Just a thought but I was recently watching a webinar in connection with my son's condition and someone asked a question about sleep. It was suggested that where there's a sensory processing disorder affecting proprioception, then, contrary to what would be the usual advice of a long calm down, fairly vigorous activity immediately before bed works... because some people have to move to know where they are as it were and only then can they settle long enough to fall asleep. Pillow fights were suggested!
Each of these people may have said something appropriate for you, so take what appeals, what resonates and leave the rest. It sounds a bit as though each of them were coming from some sort of 'position' without *really* listening to you. I am hearing a lot of 'got to''told to' and that's not exactly a recipe for relaxation.
FWIW I find brisk walking far more problematic than a gentle run.
I agree! The questions he was asking, he was trying to fit my answers into his preconceived plan.... probably because that was the only plan available!! The more you lovely lot reply, the more confident I am to listen to myself and trust what I know, as well as considering what they say. Thanks for your help
That is totally crazy!! The whole idea is to increase fitness and get our bums off he couch for God’s sake! Why would they say don’t do that?!?! If it makes you feel better...and it clearly has! Then you need to go with your instinct ...maybe they should do a bit more to actually get your pain sorted!! Do talker faith! You know this works...j would not advise the every day bit though rest days are vital, ok g term could do all sorts of damage. Chin up we are all behind you 👍🏻
Thanks Polly I know I would have thought a quick massage whilst I was in there, surely they can talk at the same time!! Honestly, I was a bit shocked by it all. Anyway, yes! My instinct's tell me running in the morning is good but I can still do the mindfulness and yoga stuff too. I guess I was hoping for pain relief (not medicine) but obviously I should have thought differently!!
Excruciating pain at times, and a chronic"bad back" that hurt if I did "too much".
And then about three months ago in some kind of moment of madness and boredom and pecuniary apprehension I signed on for something that was guaranteed to work my back like the 'old days".
I honestly thought I would be shamefully kicked off the team in a matter of hours.
I have not only had zero problems with my back over the job, it does not bother me when testing either. I did buy a forty dollars Backbelt alright but am beginning to believe it's unnecessary.
The comment that was made was 'Maybe we get too hung up on protecting our bodies instead of pushing them to behave properly" and I think there may be SOME truth in that.
I "listen" to my body more now, but I also am not as "overawed" by any little upset or niggle - more a case of 'moderstion in all things...including moderation'
Ironically though - while my back held up, I did manage to pop my hip out an inch and a half so I might not be too trustworthy fount of knowledge here
Thanks me dear, I LOVE hearing other people's stories, finding the wisdom in them. Love your opening disclaimer too! Hope your hip's on the mend now? Are you running again or still on the IC? Easy does it
Today was the first morning I was able to put my socks on without pretzeling contortions accompanied by demonic howls of pain and the paint being stripped from the walls because of the foulness of my language.
Hi fpf, I just thought I’d give you some kind of idea of what has happened to me, to see if it helps you. First, I had had excruciating pain in my shoulder for months and months after sleeping wrong one day. That was extremely quickly sorted out after I finally called the healthcare service at my job uses. They sent over a trained ergonomist, who rearranged my computer and chair. It turns out repeatedly stressing yourself every day while working can cause you to have some pain. Who knew? Like you, I assumed that I had some kind of chronic condition. What I had was a chronically bad working position. The pain was basically gone the day after she came and fixed my working position.
Similarly, with my most recent back pain, the issue was really my posture. I needed more flexibility in my upper back and I needed to stand with my head back kind of with my chin tucked under. That allowed my back to curve more naturally, and stopped putting all the curve in the lower or lumbar spine. The person who told me that, was a neuromuscular massage therapist. My physiotherapist did give me exercises to strengthen my core, and they helped somewhat, but I think without the tip to look at the chronic stressor, in other words my posture, it would really have taken a very long time.
Therefore, I urge you to take a look at what it might be in your everyday life that could be causing some of these issues, and to continue to seek help until you find a healthcare professional who says or does something that actually makes the pain better. I really don’t believe that waiting out back injuries is the way to go. It has never worked for me, not with any of the back injuries I have ever had.
Very best of luck. Also, I’d ignore the advice not to exercise as it is completely ridiculous. It is possible that running is not the best exercise for you now, but in that case the doctor should have recommended something that was equally effective for your health. In my opinion. Please be careful, and don’t run if it brings you greater pain. But in any case, don’t give up on exercise, you need it for your health.
Thank you for your lovely help :). Yes, I believe all that you say, posture and position are really important, some changes have been made at work and I am already feeling the benefit. I'm more conscious of how I am, carry myself. I started yoga tonight as I know stress and anxiety play a large contributing factor and I came away with a headache, which says to me that there's stuff that needs to come out. Running doesn't hurt my back, thank God, so I am carrying on. I need it, I've become an addict!
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I went for a couple massages a while back and the masseuse poked and jabbed at my neck muscles, saying, "Boy, are you ever tense!".... Soon there will be sun up here (I'm in Michigan in the States,) and I'll be able to get that missed run in. Best of luck to you!
I hope your partner recovers quickly and that you are looking after yourself at the same time.
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