Forgiveness from an artists perspective...

[fauxartist]

My usual routine when I start my day is a cup of coffee, and then reading some art mag. articles about new artists and their stories...this one struck me...and I just wanted to share their take on forgiveness of a father who was emotionally vacant due to his addictions and mental health issues, and how this affected this artist growing up and influences his work today.

Mag. Interview:

I think it's important that we recognize that forgiveness, most of the time, has more to do with us than it does to do with them. And so, for me, the kind of forgiveness that this film is talking about is a kind of forgiveness that allows you to unburden yourself and say, "I'm not carrying this anymore. It's too heavy. I'm done with it. You had a debt. You owed me something. You don't owe me no more. I'm good. I'm going to let that go." And in saying that, there is freedom. There's a weight lifted off of your shoulders.

The part that I think we get wrong is I think we assume that that means that you have to continue on the path with that individual. And we often have this idea about forgive and forget. I'm not sure that I believe in that wholly. I mean, sometimes it happens, I suppose. But the reality is oftentimes we are telling victims to forget for the sake of the perpetrators. We have these wounds. We have scars. … I don't think it's a good idea for us to be telling people to forgive and reconcile … when it means that they are putting themselves back in harm's way.

[Hidden]

An interesting article fauxartist. I like how the artist described it and I agree with some of his perspective around it is more about us than them.

I really struggle with the word forgive, for me it is the wrong word and always will be. (Strong feelings on this.)

I have spent time letting go of the person and my anger at them.

It gave me room to focus on me and being there for me instead. It did feel like a huge relief to let go. I will never forgive the person, but I am detached from them. It takes time and you definitely have to not have them in your life at all, in my opinion to manage it.

I would love to find a word for that 'letting go.' It is such a relief when you can get there, I just felt like I can breathe and had a big sigh!

[fauxartist in reply to Hidden]

Yeah...I totally agree with you....this was just this artists take, mine is more like....why should I forgive the unforgivable...when it would do me more harm to do so, they don't deserve to be let off with their evil. The people who caused me this harm and damage as a kid and when I was a young adult, never thought they did anything wrong, and gave it no more thought than to swat a fly away, no accountability, no compassion, no conscience....so... why would I forgive them. But what I can do, is accept that these people were evil, and cruel, I don't have to give a crap about them anymore.

I accept that they are who they are, and what they are, but that doesn't diminish what they are and what they did, they own that, not me....They can no longer harm me unless I let them into my head....they are nothing to me anymore...I can let go of them, and yes, the damage is always the invisible scars in the deep recesses of my brain, hence my CPTSD... but the pain is null....I feel nothing for them....and the most cruel of all, was my own mother...she is, and never will ever be a part of my life again....it's been over 16 years now, probably more, I don't really count anymore....but she is dead to me.

[Hidden in reply to fauxartist]

Your writing is very moving fauxartist ❤️

It explains why forgiveness feels so wrong to me. Forgiveness, denies us the validation of our many years of painful experience because of them.

Walking away, turning our backs, leaving them behind is what we give ourselves to move towards healing.

[fauxartist in reply to Hidden]

It's a very hard thing to do when it comes to a lifetime of wanting the love from a parent or partner, and hoping they will change and somehow atone for their abusive actions. But the reality is....it's the definition of insanity for me...hoping for the same thing over and over again, but getting the same results....no change. It took a very long time for me to get to that point of being able to walk away....but when I did...I never look back.... I moved on.

[hypercat54 in reply to fauxartist]

Faux I do agree with you on this. But will add its possible to let go and move on but still retain a relationship with that person but on your terms.

Of course it depends a lot on the individuals involved and sometimes that's not possible so it is best to distance yourself like you and others have. Not knocking that at all.

I made a different decision with my narc mother even though she damaged my life in so many ways. I can never forgive or forget that but I did reach a stage where I left it firmly in the past where it belonged and moved on.

For me that involved maintaining a relationship with her, but on my terms and she knew that too and respected me for it. I am glad I did as I learnt so much about myself and it gave me confidence being able to face her down when she misbehaved. It helped me in my growth.

Like I said not knocking others for their decisions, but just presenting a slightly different approach.

Hope you are ok my friend? x

[fauxartist in reply to hypercat54]

Your right about everyone's circumstances being different. And some there is no coming back from, such as mine. I'm glad you were able to reconcile your relationship, but as you said...that's not always possible for some of us.

When there is something so terrible such as sexual abuse, and allowing your child to be sexually abused by others....there is no forgiveness.....

[hypercat54 in reply to fauxartist]

Yes I agree. I have read some awful stories on here and you know I am aware of yours too faux.

Like I said I didn't forgive or forget the damage my mother did to my life, and never will even though she is long gone now. But I am glad I managed to put it well in the past and in the box labelled irrelevant and my reaction to her comment confirmed for me how far I had come.

Part of it was because I knew better and would never have abandoned or treated her cruelly as she did me. I would have felt I had let myself down if I did. It confirmed that I was nothing like her and we were poles apart which was very comforting.

But then I didn't suffer any physical abuse so I have no idea how I would have dealt with that.

I respect everyone's reactions and would never try and tell anyone how they should feel or what they should do, but just making the point that I did it for me and not her. As a consequence I learned quite a lot about myself which helped me.

[CL3V3R-G1RL]

I agree with you Fauxartist. The only forgiveness I think that really matters is the one to yourself. That's where forgiveness is important. We can't change the past. We can acknowledge we did the best we could with what we knew and had at the time.

Forgiveness for others should only extend to those that actually show it through action not just saying "I'm sorry".

Some people are just beyond forgiving. They did a truly terrible thing.

I watched a reel of a nurse at a hospice facility making a call for her patient to his son who is a no contact. She made the call and explained that his dad is dying and that his dad requested he come and see him before he goes. Son declined. The nurse asked would he like an update to let him know when his father does pass away. Son said yes and that was that. She Then had to go back and tell her patient that his son refused the request to come up with him. The patient became upset and asked the nurse if she explained to his son that he is dying. The nurse said yeah. She explained all that to him but his son does not want to see him. Patient became upset and angry with her saying that she didn't do enough. She should have encouraged his son to come up and see him. And the nurse told him that she could not do that. That she has to respect his son's wishes. Because she doesn't know what the situation was like before all this happened. And she cannot force his son to do something that he doesn't want to do. So the patient yelled at her and then told her to get out of his room. And she said it was difficult. In the end she did the right thing. She said that we meet the sweet elderly people and yeah they have no contact with their family members. They lived a whole other lifetime before they became patients and you don't know what the story is there. They could have been very very different people that. And that's why they have no contact with their sons, daughters, etc

[Hidden in reply to CL3V3R-G1RL]

I'm glad you shared that CL3V3R-G1RL, very relevant to me recently.

[CL3V3R-G1RL in reply to Hidden]

You're very welcome 🤗

[fauxartist in reply to CL3V3R-G1RL]

The nurse was exactly right.... who knows what the father was like to his son for him to want no contact. I have a no contact in place with my sister who is a nurse and minds my elderly mother.... and the only reason I want to know when she finally passes is to know that door is forever closed.

[CL3V3R-G1RL in reply to fauxartist]

Yeah I understand that. That's why I think people shouldn't get all judgemental and start pushing people to reconcile. People don't know the circumstances. Most people have a really good reason why they made the decision to not talk to their love ones.

I don't have one for my sister JG. But after my mom goes, I already know my sister isn't going to talk to me anymore. Hell I even told that to my sister JG. I'm okay with that. I saw who she really was before her bipolar disorder. She just isn't a good person.

Some people like this father just want to clear their conscience before they pass because they think it'll get them into the "upper room". It does absolutely nothing for their kids, siblings, etc. My grandma who I loved dearly wasn't a good mother to my mom. When she apologized to my mom she said "IF I ever did anything to you, I apologize." Which isn't really an apology. It puts it on my mom. It's my mom's Perception. If you think I did anything wrong, I'm sorry. My grandma just couldn't admit she did do some messed up things. That she played favorites with her kids. The ones she favored, where never there for her when she got old. The kid she dislike is the one who took care of her. And brought her grandbabies over.

[fauxartist in reply to CL3V3R-G1RL]

I was told that my mother is my mother, and I had to forgive and accept her for who she is because she was my mother. That really stuck in my craw....I told them to walk in my shoes as a kid and then get back to me on that statement. So like the son of the guy dying.... I totally understand...I wouldn't let my mother off the hook either.

I don't hate my mother, and I don't love her either....I feel nothing. As a kid, and for many years, I so desperately wanted her to be a mom like I saw other kids had, or ones I saw on TV shows who fed their kids, and made them breakfast, and loved and hugged them....but that just wasn't in the cards for me. It took a long, long time to get to the point where I just stopped feeling anything anymore when it was about my mother, that means no more heartache, no more pain.

I found my own loving friends, some of my family, and a very loving partner who loves me warts and all. I think that when we have a good heart, we have already won the battle back to some healing. That's the true grace,... is to have compassion, and love and kindness. I think when my mother finally passes, which will be soon, I may be sad for what I never had from her.... but nothing more.

[hypercat54 in reply to fauxartist]

Its funny but when my mother died I felt mainly sorrow that she never realised or worked through the damage her mother did to her. If she had she could have had a glorious life but she let bitterness and anger overcome her and wasted it.

One of my sisters felt exactly the same way as like me she was self aware and had worked on her issues for growth too.

[hypercat54 in reply to hypercat54]

I want to add too that when she went into a care home in her 80's I would visit her regularly. One day (after all my life accusing me nastily of being just like my father, secretive and sly and 'up to my tricks again') out of the blue suddenly blurted out with a shocked expression on her face - 'You are nothing like your father are you'? My reaction completely surprised me. I burst out laughing and said 'Hallelujah mum, its only taken you 50 years to realise that'. That was a glorious moment

[hypercat54 in reply to CL3V3R-G1RL]

I love reading your responses as they are always spot on and I always think - she is a clever girl x

[CL3V3R-G1RL in reply to hypercat54]

Aww thank you 🥰

[Alpakka123 in reply to fauxartist]

Hi again,

I'm just now reading this full thread. I've read some of your comments on other threads as well, and oh my goodness! I am so very sorry for what you went through!

The only reason I'm telling you this is because I reacted "YES!!" to your last sentence. I've told more than one person that there will be an ultimate end to this, and that will be with her passing. I also wanted to mention that what I learned about this woman afterwards was less than flattering (to put it mildly...). I mean, yikes! Every once in a while I think about how it must have been for her son. Poor guy! When I asked a friend why he lives in California instead of here, she said "because California is as far from Norway as you can get and still be in the States (where he's from)".

I had a great mom. But something happened within me with the timing of my mom dying and this woman stepping up as a support. Wires got crossed. I got confused. This woman became my mom. Mom died 3 years ago. I was 40 years old. So, I knew mom for 40 years. I met this woman in 2020. Less than 5 years ago... My rhetorical question to a family friend was how it was even possible to so easily "switch over". Her response was that anything is possible.

[fauxartist in reply to Alpakka123]

I'm so happy for you to have had a good mom....every child deserves that, and your very lucky to have those good memories. I'm sorry she's no longer with you, but she is still always with you now.

[Alpakka123 in reply to fauxartist]

Thank you, my dear. Yes, you're right; I am lucky to have those memories. Thank you for your words. I miss her so incredibly much. I have a memorial of sorts in my living room. It's a "home" I made two summers ago. One thing I am grateful for is my plan of staying away from the church is working! I'm starting to grieve properly!! It only took 3 years...

I am at the point now where I can say (and believe; the believing part is a Biggie) the following:

"I deserve to grieve", "how dare this woman", "this is utterly ridiculous; this has nothing whatsoever to do with me, my grief, my family. This was a deranged woman who wanted a piece of the action".

[fauxartist in reply to Alpakka123]

There are a lot of self-serving parasites out there that feed off of our grief or our good will, but that's on them.... Having faith is in the heart, not the people in a building. Eventually, after you have had some time to process and regain your footing, you can make a choice then about going back to your church if things have changed there. The process of grieving is different for everyone....and it takes what ever time it takes. Just remember that our loved ones who have passed are at peace now, and they would want us to live life, and remember the love and good memories of them, and to not live our lives stuck in grief....I hope you find peace with all that's happened, and that person who wronged you I'm sure her own karma will take care of the rest.

[Alpakka123 in reply to fauxartist]

Thanks, my dear. My mom and I are relaxing at home today. While I won't harp on it here, I will say that there's a fundamental flaw in my church's leadership. My husband sees it, and I've had others tell me similar. I spoke with a former council (leadership) person some years ago who had left her position because she couldn't stand the politics. She said that council meetings were like a competition of who could speak the loudest.

I'll stop there as I've taken too much of your time on this thread. The topic got me going, is all (especially since a church setting seems to complicate matters). Reminds me of when I asked the Bible study leader why this had to happen in a church, and his response was "yes, that complicates matters...". You know, I'm wondering if things would be different had it happened in a secular environment? I wonder if clergy and other churchy folk think about this. Might be a good question for my pastor, this. Yes, I'll ask her. Because I think it would be different. Apparently, setting changes things, I guess. It's very strange that this would be the case, in my view.

Look at me....sorry, I'm going on. This obviously touched a nerve. I'll be quiet now.

Have a good day!

[fauxartist in reply to Alpakka123]

You can say what you want here, and talking about it is cathartic and anonymous. So you take all the time you need....this may be exactly what you need right now, a safe environment to work through this issue and how you want to approach it with your group. The church can often protect their own and leave the victims to fend for themselves, and thats not how it should be. And I hope your pastor will do the right thing and help you as well....keep fighting the good fight Alpakka....it keeps the healing moving forward...

[Alpakka123 in reply to fauxartist]

Thanks for your words, my dear. I really appreciate it very much!Writing is how I process, so yes, this site has been very helpful for me.

[Alpakka123]

Hi fauxartist,

Interesting. It confirms what both my pastor and my therapist has explained to me about forgiveness. I've been having a heck of a time with the topic of forgiveness for what my abuser put me through. It's been especially hard since I am grappling with both a secular approach and a religious approach. Not only am I dealing with "how is one supposed to forgive being abused (never mind for something as serious as for grieving?"), but I am also dealing with "how is it even possible that my church is reacting the way they are (punishing her, but also allowing her to remain in leadership -- a body of people who are supposed to uphold what the church teaches) when her abusive behavior flies directly in the face of what the church teaches?". Lots of feelings come up.

Your last sentence reminds me of my therapist's approach of "she'll just continue where she left off if you go back to her"

[fauxartist in reply to Alpakka123]

Unfortunately, the topic of forgiveness from a religious viewpoint is just not tenable for many of us. It's possible I'm sure for some people....but for me...no. I don't believe in organized religion, in part for some of the reasons around forgiveness your stating. I believe that forgiveness unconditionally can cause more harm to the victim, by letting the abuser off scot free and not having to be held accountable. Many abusers don't take responsibility for their actions....they see no wrong in what they do, or are in complete denial of wrong doing ... to be expected to forgive their actions just compounds the damage they have caused us, it lets us believe they don't get punished for what we know is wrong...so how do we believe in forgiveness if it's letting this happen.

[Alpakka123 in reply to fauxartist]

Hi again,

Hence my ultimate decision to not go to church again until this woman, who was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer earlier this year, passes.

It's very sad, but I just can't. I'm exhausted. My meltdown after my attendance at church some weeks ago was the last straw.

I see this woman volunteering at church and it makes me livid. Makes me feel like I haven't gotten through (despite the pastor and others saying so). They know full well that she's an abuser. That's all I'll say except I could report the church, but I won't. I'm too wiped out. Very sad indeed.

[Hidden in reply to Alpakka123]

You are doing the right thing to protect yourself, that is what matters.

I wonder if they would behave differently if she wasn't near the end of her life.

Can you explore other churches while you stay away?

[Alpakka123 in reply to Hidden]

You know, that is a really good point! But not the case here. Her abuse and my reporting her happened before she got sick.

It's the Christian attitude. While her end of life illness doesn't help (as in, it changes things a bit I think), it's the Christian way. Drives me absolutely crazy in this case.

Yes, there is another church I can try. Thanks for the suggestion

[Hidden in reply to Alpakka123]

I am not excusing their behaviour Alpakka at all! Please don't think that. I'm sorry if it came across that way. There is no excuse to disregard her behaviour towards you.

I have never been part of any church, so have no experience in their thinking.

I hope you find a way forward that best suits you. If you do try the other church, I hope it gives you space from all this and maybe some new connections.

Do you journal? That could be a good way to let your thoughts and feelings out. Or even write them down and shred them, which is what I do when I need to vent my heavier feelings, that I never want to read again, I just need them out.

[Alpakka123 in reply to Hidden]

Oh you're fine, dear🤗

[Nothing_but_books]

Hi faux.

Broken star

[fauxartist in reply to Nothing_but_books]

WOW!. Beautiful.... your awesome, your very talented.... I couldn't sew my way out of a paper bag.