This is in response to some who replied to "Blood Thinners" (middlejoel).
Vitamin K does not "cause" blood to clot. Sure, the "K" stands for "Koagulation" (German), but that is because vitamin K is essential for normal clotting.
It is not safe to be vitamin K deficient. K is essential for the movement of calcium to bone. Without K, bones become weaker & arterial calcification occurs.
In addition, bleeding caused by trauma can become a major problem if normal clotting does not occur.
Vitamin K1 is found in leafy greens. Loading up with spinach at the salad bar will not result in a blood clot. There are no FDA warnings on packages of kale.
Vitamin K is a cofactor for the production of various coagulation factors (II, VII, IX, & X). Excess K will not cause excess coagulation factors.
AND coagulation factors do not automatically result in clots. They are on standby in case of bleeding.
Note that Warfarin (Coumadin) inhibits vitamin K, resulting in a longer time for coagulation to occur. Not a good idea for most of us. The reason why Warfarin is used for unwanted clots is that there is no approved drug to dissolve the clot. The body will take a long time to get rid of clots, & in the mean time Warfarin prevents the clot from getting bigger. The danger is that people on Warfarin have a risk of bleeding out if involved in an accident. Many do not make it to the ER.
Unwanted coagulation is a concern for anyone with cancer. PCa disrupts coagulation factors. Doctors know this but do not test for elevated D-dimer. This is because they will not prescribe a dangerous drug such as Warfarin unless the patient has ended up in ER with a life-threatening clot.
However, cancer seems to need microclots for metastasis.
As noted above, it's not a good idea for men with PCa to intentionally become vitamin K deficient.
Nattokinase is a cousin of plasmin:
"Plasmin is an important enzyme ... present in blood that degrades many blood plasma proteins, including fibrin clots." (Wiki)
Plasmin is slow, nattokinase is faster. By adjusting the dose one can quickly bring D-dimer into the normal range (ideally zero.)
Nattokinase is not a "blood thinner".
-Patrick
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You may want to rethink the one-sided view you are getting here.
"This meta-analysis indicates that Vitamin K Antagonists [ie, medicines that block Vitamin K} use may be associated with a decreased risk of prostate cancer, especially in long-term users."
"dietary intakes of phylloquinone, menaquinones, and total vitamin K were not significantly associated with the risk of advanced, nonadvanced, and total prostate cancer. "
"We observed a nonsignificant inverse association between total prostate cancer and total menaquinone intake [multivariate relative risk (highest compared with lowest quartile)"
I recently developed 3 small blood clots in my left leg. I have a tumor (Follicular Lymphoma) at that groin area. I was given the drug Eliquil which has replaced Warfarin, very inadequate drug that was constantly recalibrated. I was told to take for 3 months, need a scan to re-evaluate. I was thinking of taking vit K due to high blood calcium. But now cannot. Exercise is said to help lower blood calcium.
Direct factor Xa inhibitors, such as Eliquis do not interact with vitamin K, so there should be no need to restrict intake.
The only warning I can find relates to the pesky CYP3A4 liver enzyme, which clears the drug. Anything that increases/decreases CYP3A4 will affect blood levels of Eliquis.
It's amusing because high blood calcium has been a thing for me for months. My hematologist tells me (of course): "It doesn't matter what I eat". Now the potassium is higher, I have been glomming bananas and oranges - known for potassium. Now her nurse tells me: "cut back on potassium foods. Ha. Balancing act is really tricky. I restart a monocolonal antibody next week.
Hypercalcemia is sometimes diagnosed as hypervitaminosis D, but may be due to an imbalance between vitamins D & K. If the problem goes away with K supplementation, the cause is really hypovitaminosis K.
Is the high calcium "ionic" (free) or regular? You might want to check your parathyroid. Sometimes an overactive parathyroid will result in high ionic calcium.
Be careful about cherry-picking studies that reward your confirmation bias. What about these? :
"This meta-analysis indicates that Vitamin K Antagonists [ie, medicines that block Vitamin K} use may be associated with a decreased risk of prostate cancer, especially in long-term users."
"dietary intakes of phylloquinone, menaquinones, and total vitamin K were not significantly associated with the risk of advanced, nonadvanced, and total prostate cancer. "
"We observed a nonsignificant inverse association between total prostate cancer and total menaquinone intake [multivariate relative risk (highest compared with lowest quartile)"
"Only menaquinones from dairy products were associated with a significantly lower risk of advanced prostate cancer. Accordingly, the risk estimate for higher menaquinones (MK-5–9), predominantly (85% of total intake) derived from dairy products [mainly cheese], was close to significance (RR: 0.82; 95% CI: 0.67, 1.02), whereas the risk estimate for MK-4 (37% of total intake derived from meat or meat products) was not significant (Table 5)."
This was a diet study - not Vitamin K from supplements. When an attempt was made to replicate it in 2019, no such associations were found. This suggests that the associations were spurious.
It also does not address what happens when patients overload on K vitamins by taking supplements. And is the menaquinone in the supplement from dairy or meat?
For example, with respect to testosterone causing prostate cancer, I have looked at 38 studies. 19 concluded that higher testosterone was protective, 18 concluded that lower is protective, 1 didn't arrive at statistical significance either way.
Obviously, even if someone thinks that they are being unbiased by picking 10 studies, they might wind up with the majority showing testosterone is an issue. Or a majority showing it isn't.
But with the 38 studies, I can't conclude that it is, and I can't conclude that it isn't.
Back to vitamin K, I don't know if anyone knows what the exact pluses or minuses are. I've mostly read positive studies. But it doesn't appear to be a slam dunk and I haven't spent much time researching it. In the meantime, I'll take my 100% RDA supplement. Will I change my mind and alter that dose (up or down)? Quite possibly. We need to react and incorporate new science when appropriate.
Patrick elegantly laid out some of the positives. On balance it seems to be somewhat beneficial for more than one reason. My SOC PCP advised me to take 1000 IU vitamin D, 100% of the RDA of vitamin K, a baby aspirin, and a low dose statin (I take red yeast rice since it very effectively drops my cholesterol and contains 5 mg of monacolin k per dose) daily. I've read about some potential adverse effects from baby aspirin so I only take it every other day.
Thanks Patrick good info. When I monitored my diet with a app my K intake was very high based on the amount of leafy vegetables I consume regularly and have for years.
One does not need supplement of Vitamin K as this vitamin is plentiful in vegetables.
Cancer is certainly a hypercoagulable state. To counter this hypercoability, the least risky method is to add Turmeric, Ginger, Garlic in your diet. This ensures enough blood thinning if you eat these foods on a daily basis.
You all need to differentiate the two Vit K's you are referring to. Vit K is involved in the clotting cascade. Vit K2 is necessary to maintain the Calcium cycle in the blood and bones.
What is the Difference Between Vitamin K and K2?
Vitamin K vs K2
Vitamin K (phylloquinone) is the naturally occurring form of vitamin K synthesized in plants. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) is the naturally occurring form of Vitamin K synthesized by microorganisms in the gut.
Dietary Sources
Dietary sources of vitamin K are plants such as broccoli, spinach, lettuce. Dietary sources of vitamin K2 are fermented food and animal based products.
Stability
Vitamin K is less stable in air, moisture and sunlight. Vitamin K2 is more stable in air, moisture and sunlight.
Main Function
The main function of the vitamin K is the carboxylation of glutamic acid residues of blood clotting factors (proteins) to promote the clotting process. The main function of vitamin K2 is to maintain calcium homeostasis and prevent deposition of calcium in arteries and bone
"4. Vitamin K Recommended Intake, Deficiency, and Assessment
"The recommended daily intake (RDI) or adequate intake (AI) of vitamin K is aimed at ensuring normal blood coagulation [16]. There is some variability of these recommended target values across various organizations. The National Academy of Medicine in the US stated the AI of vitamin PK at 120 μg/day for adult men and 90 μg/day for adult women [51]. The World Health Organization and the Food and Agriculture Organization recommended dosages for vitamin PK at 65 μg/day for men and 55 μg/day for women, based on a calculated requirement of 1 μg/day/kg body weight [52]. Finally, the European Commission has established a recommended daily allowance (RDA) for vitamin K at 75 μg/day [53]. In 2012, the Italian LARN (Reference Assumption Levels for Nutrients and Energy), proposed by the Human Nutrition Italian Society (SINU) suggested an intake of vitamin K stratified for age (140 or 170 μg/day for 18–59 and >60 years old, respectively) [54].
"However, the studies carried out so far have suggested that a relatively higher vitamin K intake is required for bone and vascular health. Since vitamin K is stored mainly in the liver where it is used for the maintenance of the normal coagulation balance, a greater amount is required for extrahepatic tissues [55,56]. A Tsugawa et al., analyzed 1183 healthy adolescents, elaborating a new method for estimating vitamin K intake by a logarithmic regression equation. Authors showed that bone metabolism requires more vitamin K than blood coagulation: 155–188 and 62–54 μg/day, respectively [57].
"Binkley et al. showed that a vitamin K intake > 250 μg is required for γ-carboxylation of OC. These studies suggest that the effect of vitamin K deficiency is more prominent on bone rather than on blood clotting [58]."
***
T_A recklessly suggested that vitamin K antagonists were good for men with PCa.
"Oral anticoagulants (OAC) have shown to affect bone mineral density and cause osteoporosis"
Absolutely! But is it safe to take baby aspirin? LOL
Vitamin K at the suggested dose on the bottle should be safe unless one is on a vitamin K inhibitor, such as warfarin.
Bably aspirin slows coagulation by inhibiting the aggregation of platelets - this is the first step in the clotting process. The second step - the formation of the fibrin clot - requires cofactors that depend on adequate vitamin K intake. Those cofactors do not interfere with the action of aspirin.
Warfarin is a vitamin K inhibitor. I have a friend who has been on it for 20 years. He told me that having a spinach salad the night before the monthly visit to the Coumadin clinic, was enough to put him out of the therapeutic range.
Spinach contains K1 & you asked about K2. K2 would do the same.
-Patrick
Hi All
I had a CT Cardio Angiogram in July 16 that gave me an Agatston score of 1315 - which is super high- normal is 0-60.
2 of my cardiac arteries were found to be blocked at 75% and the third at 95%.
I have no risk factors at all for cardiac atherosclerosis, so I assume it was genetic?
Anyway, I had a triple CABG in Feb17 and it was a great op!
Then my wife 'found ' Vit K2 Mk7 for me - it directs calcium away from the blood to the bones and I have been taking it for almost 4 years now.
Had another 3 year Cardiac Angiogram Check up of the replaced arteries in April 20 and the Agatston reading was 0!
So, must be the Vit K2 Mk7? I shall certainly continue this forever!
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