Vitamin K and its analogs: & PCa

[pjoshea13]

New paper below. -Patrick

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/289...

Oncotarget. 2017 May 19;8(34):57782-57799. doi: 10.18632/oncotarget.17997. eCollection 2017 Aug 22.

Vitamin K and its analogs: Potential avenues for prostate cancer management.

Dasari S1, Ali SM1, Zheng G1, Chen A1, Dontaraju VS2, Bosland MC3, Kajdacsy-Balla A3, Munirathinam G1.

Author information

Abstract

Epidemiological studies have demonstrated a relationship between cancer incidence and dietary habits. Especially intake of certain essential nutrients like vitamins has been shown to be beneficial in experimental studies and some clinical trials. Vitamin K (VK) is an essential nutrient involved in the blood clotting cascade, and there are considerable experimental data demonstrating its potential anticancer activity in several cancer types including prostate cancer. Previous in vitro and in vivo studies have focused mainly on anti-oxidative effects as the underlying anticancer mechanism of VK. However, recent studies reveal that VK inhibits the growth of cancer cells through other mechanisms, including apoptosis, cell cycle arrest, autophagy, and modulation of various transcription factors such as Myc and Fos. In the present review, we focus on the anticancer effect of dietary VK and its analogs on prostate cancer, with an emphasis on the signaling pathways that are activated following exposure to these compounds. This review also highlights the potential of VK and its derivatives as an adjuvant treatment in combination with other vitamins or with chemotherapeutic drugs. Based on our recent results and a review of the existing literature, we present evidence that VK and its derivatives can potentially be explored as cancer therapy, especially for prostate cancer.

KEYWORDS:

Vitamin K; apoptosis and autophagy; dietary constituents; prostate cancer

PMID: 28915711 PMCID: PMC5593683 DOI: 10.18632/oncotarget.17997

[joeoconnell]

to prevent stokes and heart attacks i am on blood thinner, will vit. K be a problem with that ?

[Scruffybut1 in reply to joeoconnell]

Am also on thinners and was told to avoid VK. Will keep my eyes open for the replies to you because things may have changed, like with Testosterone.

[rococo in reply to Scruffybut1]

This is the delema no one seem to address. L too am concerned about this. Maybe posting it out there will get a better response. Rocco

[pjoshea13 in reply to rococo]

The coagulation cascade involves many factors. A blood thinner only needs to inhibit one of them. Coumadin (Warfarin) inhibits vitamin K, but newer drugs target other factors - e.g.:

Rivaroxaban (Xarelto) & Apixaban (Eliquis) are factor Xa inhibitors [1] [2].

Dabigatran (Pradaxa) is a thrombin inhibitor [3].

If taking something else, check with Wikipedia.

If taking Warfarin long term, one is pretty much screwed. Arterial calcification & osteoporosis are inevitable side-effects, & Warfarin is one of the top causes of ER visits. Best to have vitamin K in one's pocket in case of situations leading to a bleed-out.

The vitamin K in a spinach salad can mess up one's INR at the "Coumadin Clinic" (as a friend discovered), (and a couple glasses of red wine once messed up mine, for some reason).

Vitamin K supplements are not permitted while on Warfarin, but are OK with anticoagulants that are not K inhibitors.

-Patrick

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivar...

[2] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apixaban

[3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabig...

[Scruffybut1 in reply to pjoshea13]

Well Patrick there goes my move to another thinner. Am stumped with Warfarin for the time being and no Vit K.

[periclesBC in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks for another great explanation of a complex topic!

How about taking both nattozymes and vitamin K? What sort of ratio might balance them out? Have you adopted one for your supplement regime, perhaps?

[pjoshea13 in reply to periclesBC]

K & nattokinase address different issues, although there is a product that combines them [1].

Vitamin K is needed to produce the calcium transporter osteocalcin. Without it, calcium transport to bone will be impaired and excess calcium in the blood, destined for bone, will end up on arterial walls instead.

With vitamin K, we really need MK-7, because the other forms are cleared too quick for a one-a-day supplement.

The primary use of nattokinase is to dissolve the fibrin of an existing clot. None of the pharma-anticoagulants address clots directly - they simply slow acretion to the point where plasmin in the body can get ahead of the job of clot clearance. Nattokinase & plasmin are similar enzymes.

Interestingly, the production process for extracting nattokinase from natto, removes MK-7 (for product purity.)

For MK-7, I use a product that delivers Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-7) = 200 mcg. Perhaps 100 mcg would do the job, but I stick with 200 mcg. If I had started out with serious calcification, I might have gone higher to start with, since K can reverse arterial calcification. But there is no reason to play with the dose otherwise.

On the other hand, one should adjust the dose of nattokinase to keep D-dimer close to zero. Standard supplement is 2,000 FUs (Fibrinolytic units) & one pill is not enough for me. One has to test D-dimer to be sure).

A bonus with nattokinase is it keeps fibrinogen low-normal. It is the precursor of fibrin & is elevated in inflammatory conditions - such as cancer.

-Patrick

[1] vitacost.com/vitacost-vitam...

[middlejoel in reply to pjoshea13]

Patrick,

I take the Life Extension Vit Super K supplement and I also have A-fib. I have been taking Eliquis but recently I added nattokinase at the 2000 FU's and cut in half the Eliquis, is this a mistake?

[pjoshea13 in reply to middlejoel]

Joel,

As you no doubt know, Apixaban (Eliquis) "is an anticoagulant for the treatment of venous thromboembolic events. ... It is a direct factor Xa inhibitor." [1]. So there is no conflict with vitamin K (nor with nattokinase.)

The question is whether 2,000 FUs of nattokinase is sufficient to compensate for the cut in the Eliquis dose.

As with all anticoagulants, the role of Eliquis is to slow coagulation to the point where plasmin can keep on top of clot formation.

Nattokinase acts in the same way as plasmin, so you should be able to cut back on Eliquis.

However, you should use the D-dimer test to monitor what you are doing. If D-dimer is near zero, you are safe. D-dimer can be elevated for other reasons, but if it is elevated, I would assume that you need more FUs.

When there is a clot, nattokinase will cause D-dimer to initially rise (D-dimer is a measure of proteins associated with clot breakdown.) Ultimately, D-dimer will be lower than before. The aim is to get close to zero.

With careful monitoring, you could wean yourself off Eliquis, IMO.

I'm not a doctor & I use a doctor of Integrative Medicine to discuss such stuff with. My regular doctor knew nothing about nattokinase when I had DVTs 5+ years ago. My integrative guy did - in fact, he recommended nattokinase for a PCa patient that I know.

If you choose to start using an alternative doctor, check with the office that he's OK with nattokinase, before committing to a consultation.

-Patrick

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apixaban

[GeorgeGlass in reply to pjoshea13]

Patrick, forgive me if I've asked this before but if someone with advanced prostate cancer and no history of heart attack, but with ~30 arterial plaque build up in two periphery arteries treated with stents, then would vit. K2 supplements help with that or would it increase the risk of blood clots to a high level. Assume that that person is active and fit. I'm thinking that 45 or 100 mcg would be low risk for blood clots. Assume that person was not on a blood thinner because the stents were inserted three years ago.

[pjoshea13 in reply to GeorgeGlass]

George,

K2 acts quickly in respect to halting new calcification of arteries. However, the removal of existing calcium from arterial walls is a very gradual process. I can't imagine that it would be risky in any way.

I have no experience with stents, so have to leave it at that.

-Patrick

[softwaremom00]

Any recommendations on Vitamin K supplements ? I am giving him a lot of spinach salads already

[pjoshea13 in reply to softwaremom00]

lifeextension.com/Vitamins-...

-Patrick

[curt504a in reply to softwaremom00]

I have a bleeding internal hemoroid and LEF K did not keep bleeding in check. But Walk about Emu oil does at 4 per day. Gets expensive. But its a choice isn't it.

This URL shows Walk about, also Chris Masterjohns resource on K. His view is much higher intake of K. IE paleolithic times we took in higher in a lot of good things.

[curt504a in reply to curt504a]

The URL: google.com/search?client=op...

[softwaremom00]

We are following as many suggestions as my DH will tolerate. He is tolerating a lot. I will add the Vitamin K supplements. The enzymes you suggest - Nattokinease and Serrapeptase. Are there good sources for these ? Also what is the recommended dose ?

I would love suggestions for getting his Hematocrit scores up. I have researched on the web and cannot find much. We eat a really healthy plant based diet - he has lots of probiotic coming in through supplements and diet, and at least 64ounces of fresh vegetable juice a day.

Thanks so much! Blessings and good health to all!

Rita

[pjoshea13 in reply to softwaremom00]

Rita,

I use:

swansonvitamins.com/nutrico...

because I like the company & the product works.

But any "NSK-SD" product at 2000 FUs should be fine.

Sadly, low testosterone = low hematocrit. Diet isn't the issue - nor is iron. Exercise might help.

-Patrick

[softwaremom00 in reply to pjoshea13]

Thanks!

[pjoshea13]

Hi Nala,

Just a couple of points:

1] Regarding anticoagulants. Some do not target vitamin K, so normal K levels are OK. The point of K2 supplements is not to go for supra-high levels, but to ensure an adequate supply throughout the day.

2] Dr. Myers would argue with you regarding the iron. ADT causes the symptoms of anemia & some GPs respond by recommending iron. Myers was fed up at one point about the number of patients who had way too much iron - thanks to their GPs. As Myers says: men don't bleed, at least not on a monthly cycle. There is a debate about whether vegans get enough iron, but iron deficiency is rare in well-nourished men. And excess iron is not benign. &, of course, cancer cells tend to accumulate it.

Just found the video:

askdrmyers.wordpress.com/20...

-Patrick

[pjoshea13]

Nala,

The case for vitamin K is that deficiency is widespread. What percentage of American men over age 60 have absolutely no arterial calcification? Or minimal calcification?

OK, so you are not accumulating excess iron, but doesn't your diet provide enough heme iron?

-Patrick