Advanced Prostate Cancer
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Vitamin K and its analogs: & PCa

New paper below. -Patrick

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/289...

Oncotarget. 2017 May 19;8(34):57782-57799. doi: 10.18632/oncotarget.17997. eCollection 2017 Aug 22.

Vitamin K and its analogs: Potential avenues for prostate cancer management.

Dasari S1, Ali SM1, Zheng G1, Chen A1, Dontaraju VS2, Bosland MC3, Kajdacsy-Balla A3, Munirathinam G1.

Author information

Abstract

Epidemiological studies have demonstrated a relationship between cancer incidence and dietary habits. Especially intake of certain essential nutrients like vitamins has been shown to be beneficial in experimental studies and some clinical trials. Vitamin K (VK) is an essential nutrient involved in the blood clotting cascade, and there are considerable experimental data demonstrating its potential anticancer activity in several cancer types including prostate cancer. Previous in vitro and in vivo studies have focused mainly on anti-oxidative effects as the underlying anticancer mechanism of VK. However, recent studies reveal that VK inhibits the growth of cancer cells through other mechanisms, including apoptosis, cell cycle arrest, autophagy, and modulation of various transcription factors such as Myc and Fos. In the present review, we focus on the anticancer effect of dietary VK and its analogs on prostate cancer, with an emphasis on the signaling pathways that are activated following exposure to these compounds. This review also highlights the potential of VK and its derivatives as an adjuvant treatment in combination with other vitamins or with chemotherapeutic drugs. Based on our recent results and a review of the existing literature, we present evidence that VK and its derivatives can potentially be explored as cancer therapy, especially for prostate cancer.

KEYWORDS:

Vitamin K; apoptosis and autophagy; dietary constituents; prostate cancer

PMID: 28915711 PMCID: PMC5593683 DOI: 10.18632/oncotarget.17997

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to prevent stokes and heart attacks i am on blood thinner, will vit. K be a problem with that ?

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Am also on thinners and was told to avoid VK. Will keep my eyes open for the replies to you because things may have changed, like with Testosterone.

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This is the delema no one seem to address. L too am concerned about this. Maybe posting it out there will get a better response. Rocco

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The coagulation cascade involves many factors. A blood thinner only needs to inhibit one of them. Coumadin (Warfarin) inhibits vitamin K, but newer drugs target other factors - e.g.:

Rivaroxaban (Xarelto) & Apixaban (Eliquis) are factor Xa inhibitors [1] [2].

Dabigatran (Pradaxa) is a thrombin inhibitor [3].

If taking something else, check with Wikipedia.

If taking Warfarin long term, one is pretty much screwed. Arterial calcification & osteoporosis are inevitable side-effects, & Warfarin is one of the top causes of ER visits. Best to have vitamin K in one's pocket in case of situations leading to a bleed-out.

The vitamin K in a spinach salad can mess up one's INR at the "Coumadin Clinic" (as a friend discovered), (and a couple glasses of red wine once messed up mine, for some reason).

Vitamin K supplements are not permitted while on Warfarin, but are OK with anticoagulants that are not K inhibitors.

-Patrick

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivar...

[2] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apixaban

[3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabig...

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Well Patrick there goes my move to another thinner. Am stumped with Warfarin for the time being and no Vit K.

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Thanks for another great explanation of a complex topic!

How about taking both nattozymes and vitamin K? What sort of ratio might balance them out? Have you adopted one for your supplement regime, perhaps?

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K & nattokinase address different issues, although there is a product that combines them [1].

Vitamin K is needed to produce the calcium transporter osteocalcin. Without it, calcium transport to bone will be impaired and excess calcium in the blood, destined for bone, will end up on arterial walls instead.

With vitamin K, we really need MK-7, because the other forms are cleared too quick for a one-a-day supplement.

The primary use of nattokinase is to dissolve the fibrin of an existing clot. None of the pharma-anticoagulants address clots directly - they simply slow acretion to the point where plasmin in the body can get ahead of the job of clot clearance. Nattokinase & plasmin are similar enzymes.

Interestingly, the production process for extracting nattokinase from natto, removes MK-7 (for product purity.)

For MK-7, I use a product that delivers Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-7) = 200 mcg. Perhaps 100 mcg would do the job, but I stick with 200 mcg. If I had started out with serious calcification, I might have gone higher to start with, since K can reverse arterial calcification. But there is no reason to play with the dose otherwise.

On the other hand, one should adjust the dose of nattokinase to keep D-dimer close to zero. Standard supplement is 2,000 FUs (Fibrinolytic units) & one pill is not enough for me. One has to test D-dimer to be sure).

A bonus with nattokinase is it keeps fibrinogen low-normal. It is the precursor of fibrin & is elevated in inflammatory conditions - such as cancer.

-Patrick

[1] vitacost.com/vitacost-vitam...

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Patrick,

I take the Life Extension Vit Super K supplement and I also have A-fib. I have been taking Eliquis but recently I added nattokinase at the 2000 FU's and cut in half the Eliquis, is this a mistake?

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Joel,

As you no doubt know, Apixaban (Eliquis) "is an anticoagulant for the treatment of venous thromboembolic events. ... It is a direct factor Xa inhibitor." [1]. So there is no conflict with vitamin K (nor with nattokinase.)

The question is whether 2,000 FUs of nattokinase is sufficient to compensate for the cut in the Eliquis dose.

As with all anticoagulants, the role of Eliquis is to slow coagulation to the point where plasmin can keep on top of clot formation.

Nattokinase acts in the same way as plasmin, so you should be able to cut back on Eliquis.

However, you should use the D-dimer test to monitor what you are doing. If D-dimer is near zero, you are safe. D-dimer can be elevated for other reasons, but if it is elevated, I would assume that you need more FUs.

When there is a clot, nattokinase will cause D-dimer to initially rise (D-dimer is a measure of proteins associated with clot breakdown.) Ultimately, D-dimer will be lower than before. The aim is to get close to zero.

With careful monitoring, you could wean yourself off Eliquis, IMO.

I'm not a doctor & I use a doctor of Integrative Medicine to discuss such stuff with. My regular doctor knew nothing about nattokinase when I had DVTs 5+ years ago. My integrative guy did - in fact, he recommended nattokinase for a PCa patient that I know.

If you choose to start using an alternative doctor, check with the office that he's OK with nattokinase, before committing to a consultation.

-Patrick

[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apixaban

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Patrick, forgive me if I've asked this before but if someone with advanced prostate cancer and no history of heart attack, but with ~30 arterial plaque build up in two periphery arteries treated with stents, then would vit. K2 supplements help with that or would it increase the risk of blood clots to a high level. Assume that that person is active and fit. I'm thinking that 45 or 100 mcg would be low risk for blood clots. Assume that person was not on a blood thinner because the stents were inserted three years ago.

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George,

K2 acts quickly in respect to halting new calcification of arteries. However, the removal of existing calcium from arterial walls is a very gradual process. I can't imagine that it would be risky in any way.

I have no experience with stents, so have to leave it at that.

-Patrick

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Yes

Nalakrats

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Any recommendations on Vitamin K supplements ? I am giving him a lot of spinach salads already :-)

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Vitacost Vitamin K1-K2 complex.

Nalakrats

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Been using a K1-K2 Complex, for over 15 months. We know about the transport capability for Calcium, by K2. I wrote a year ago or so about studies showing that K1, when coming face to face with a Pca cell, the Pca cell splits open spilling its guts out and thus dying. Now that was dramatic!! But they call this death Ocosis. I believe if one is on ADT, taking the complex is a 2 fold deal---improve bone health against ADT, and kill some cancer cells on the way.

Those on Blood thinners are warned not to engage! Most of you, do not, I guess, follow the suggestions of Patrick and I. Patrick recommends Nattokinase, I also do strongly, but combined with Serrapeptase. These 2 enzymes when used properly--and I cannot make the recommendations how here,---but there is a way to ween off your blood thinner, and use these enzymes that act differently to keep blood from clotting, by dissolving blood fibrin, thus allowing the use of Vitamin K's. Also the K Complex supplements, are not required for daily use. Every other Day is satisfactory.

Great to have more jump on the band wagon for the possibilities of the Vitamin K's.

Nalakrats

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We are following as many suggestions as my DH will tolerate. He is tolerating a lot. I will add the Vitamin K supplements. The enzymes you suggest - Nattokinease and Serrapeptase. Are there good sources for these ? Also what is the recommended dose ?

I would love suggestions for getting his Hematocrit scores up. I have researched on the web and cannot find much. We eat a really healthy plant based diet - he has lots of probiotic coming in through supplements and diet, and at least 64ounces of fresh vegetable juice a day.

Thanks so much! Blessings and good health to all!

Rita

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Rita,

I use:

swansonvitamins.com/nutrico...

because I like the company & the product works.

But any "NSK-SD" product at 2000 FUs should be fine.

Sadly, low testosterone = low hematocrit. Diet isn't the issue - nor is iron. Exercise might help.

-Patrick

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Thanks!

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Patrick likes Swanson, as he mentions often. I have no problem with them. I use Vitacost Brand name Vitamin K Complex, that follows a life Extension formula, for lower cost. As to K, your husband cannot use if taking a Blood thinner drug. I use Doctors Best, Natto, and Serra. I use 2000 Fu's times 2. Or 4,000. And I use 40,000 units of Serra, also times 2. Or 80,000 units. Always on an empty stomach. And I like taking during the early morning within an hour after waking. Over a period of time these enzymes will dissolve fibrous, type material stuck to the arterial walls, by dissolving Fibrin itself in the blood. If your Fibrin is minimal as the theory goes you cannot form large clots in the arteries. I am not a Doctor, but I think these enzymes are some of the keys to my Zero C-Reactive Protein Blood Tests.

As to red blood cell counts, as Patrick says, it is hard to raise, but I say not impossible. Exercise helps, but the use of an Iron Amino acid Chelate capsule[160 mgs] once a day followed by twice a day and alternating. On my 2 per day, regiment, I take one after breakfast, and one after dinner. On my one a day, I take after Breakfast.[Vitacost Chelated Iron], High doses of B-12, sublingual, 2,000 micro grams a day plus 400 micro grams of Methyl Folate, has increased my blood count 18%, and I am nw in the low normal range.

Another trick, which would sound adverse, would be to do Phlebotomy. Getting rid of a pint of blood stimulates your bone marrow to produce quickly red blood cells to replace, and in some cases, when your bone marrow finishes the correction of the depletion, you actually wind up with an increase. Homeopathic Doctors, use this technique, and you would need a Doctors, prescription, So I do not see this happening. I do have a script, and only do it 3 times a year.

Hope the above helps you--if need more info---hit Patrick or myself up. From my point of view, I am not recommending, just suggesting. And you can do your own research as well.

Oh,by the way I have read 2 papers on Nattokinase and Prostate Cancer. You can search bar what I just wrote. The papers indicate that Natto, has an ability to eat at the Prostate Cancer Cells outer wall, that supposedly has a fibrous structure. And that this may make Pca cells vulnerable to T Killer cells. Would be great if there was Clinical Trial Evidence. Anyway it makes sense to me if the authors of the papers were correct about the outer surface structure of Pca cells.

Nalakrats

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Hi Nala,

Just a couple of points:

1] Regarding anticoagulants. Some do not target vitamin K, so normal K levels are OK. The point of K2 supplements is not to go for supra-high levels, but to ensure an adequate supply throughout the day.

2] Dr. Myers would argue with you regarding the iron. ADT causes the symptoms of anemia & some GPs respond by recommending iron. Myers was fed up at one point about the number of patients who had way too much iron - thanks to their GPs. As Myers says: men don't bleed, at least not on a monthly cycle. There is a debate about whether vegans get enough iron, but iron deficiency is rare in well-nourished men. And excess iron is not benign. &, of course, cancer cells tend to accumulate it.

Just found the video:

askdrmyers.wordpress.com/20...

-Patrick

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Yes, some do not target, but why F--- with the drugs when all you need are the 2 enzymes.

And you do not accumulate, iron, with the Amino Acid Chelated form. I have been on this iron type for a long time, and I am low normal as to my Iron. And my Ferritin, is also perfectly normal. The main purpose of taking all my key minerals in the chelated form, is to not overload the body, all my electrolytes are right in the middle, and when I tripled my Iron intake, with high B-12 and Methyl Folate, I increased my low red blood count, back into normal. So I do not need papers, or Dr. Meyers---ask Donaldson, how many of Meyers patients he had to do late surgery on to correct Meyers treatment protocols. He is not God.

And on top of my own experience, which I first started in 1967 with my research, and experimentation, and the taking in of reams of data, papers, and associated with one of the top Naturopathy groups in Atlanta[Progressive Medical]--- has taught me considerably large amounts of information. Still counting--this year, 50 years with my Homeopathic studies, a bit more than Meyers.

As I say I am not a Doctor but play one at home--so far successfully, against curing heart disease, blood pressure, A-fib, and a half dozen other things, for myself and others willing to listen. As to Pca---that is on going.

Nalakrats

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Nala,

The case for vitamin K is that deficiency is widespread. What percentage of American men over age 60 have absolutely no arterial calcification? Or minimal calcification?

OK, so you are not accumulating excess iron, but doesn't your diet provide enough heme iron?

-Patrick

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Unknown, My diet is various, but I rely on constant blood tests to prove my manipulations. IMO, all minerals should be taken in the Chelated Form, so that as we tend to take many times the suggested dose, the excess, easily gets eliminated out of the body. I.E. I have been taking 2,000 mgs of Calcium, as part of a complex with Magnesium, and Phosphorous, for 22 years---basically for Heart, and Bone health, but it has taken a High Blood Pressure, of 160/100--to an average over the last 10 years of 100/60, and a resting HR of 64. That is just one example. The Same with the Iron intake---I never took a an iron supplement until about 8 Months ago when I dropped below normal due to ADT---so I manipulated my B-12, and Methyl Folate around it--and it took 4-5 months to get back to normal. Have never changed my diet. Keep to an Adkins type, high protein, fat is pretty high, low sugar/carbo. I do not measure calories. My weight before Pca, was 196, this morning it was 196. I have had no changes---5 years ago it averaged about 195.

All my Docs, are surprised, about my numbers but do not, query me, as they do not want to engage in diet, nutrition, or supplements.

Anyway--sorry I was bit off centered in my last response---had a bad day, with my move after the sale of my house---going thru hell. What should have taken 4-6 weeks is now 7 weeks, and wife and my cat are cooped up in a 12 by 15 room, with none of our things for those 7 weeks, waiting for the workers to finish our new place.

Nalakats

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