Vitamin K and D and Artery Calcification

[cesanon]

Apparently if you are taking Vitamin D, you also need to take Vitamin K in order to avoid arterial calcification. I am discovering there are multiple types of Vitamin K.

"I take K2 both MK4 & MK7. Not for any effect on PCa but for getting calcium out of the blood and in to the bone. Bone thinning is a common long term SE of ADT and good calcium management is required. " kaptank

"K2 comes in 2 forms, menaquinone 4 and menaquinone 7. Opinion seems to be divided as to which is better and for what purpose. (eg cardiovascular vs bone health) I think most medicos who look at this will recomend M7 on its cardio credentials while M4 seems to be better at calcium transport but the 2 are so inter related that I reckon take them both. A bottle labelled "Vitamin K" can carry a number of forms, some of which are not desireable, so always examine the label." kaptank

"As best I know, K1 is OK but no substitute for the K2 forms. K3 is to be avoided." kaptank

I have found two types of Vitamin K pills at Life Extension.

1. Super K Elite - contains K1 along with four forms of vitamin K2 (MK-4, MK-6, MK-7, and MK-9). This makes Super K Elite our most complete vitamin K supplement ever.

lifeextension.com/Vitamins-...

2. Super K - Super K provides THREE kinds of vitamin K: vitamin K1 and two unique forms of K2, menaquinone-4 (MK-4) and menaquinone-7 (MK-7).

lifeextension.com/Vitamins-...

What kind of Vitamin K do you take and why?

[Tall_Allen]

"Vitamin K Antagonist use may be associated with a decreased risk of prostate cancer, especially in long-term users." So if blocking Vitamin K decreases risk of PC, it may be that taking Vitamin K increases risk. Is this a risk you want to take?

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

Hmmm it's like a 4 dimensional Rubik's cube.

[Tall_Allen in reply to cesanon]

It's seems pretty simple to me. You don't need Vitamin D, calcium or Vitamin K unless your blood levels are low. It only gets complicated when you try to outsmart your natural biochemistry.

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

Well the whole thing started for me with low vitamin d. Followed by vitamin k.

[Tall_Allen in reply to cesanon]

Then supplement just enough to get your serum Vitamin D up to normal - easy-peasy.

[cesanon in reply to Tall_Allen]

Yeah, that's sort of what I am thinking. Moderation is a good thing. Especially with complex biological systems that you never ever fully understand.

[pjoshea13 in reply to Tall_Allen]

The purpose of a vitamin K antagonist such as Warfarin is to prevent clots by increasing coagulation time. A more reasonable hypothesis than yours is that anticoagulants may decrease PCa risk.

The coagulation cascade involves many factors and there are anticoagulants that do not involve the inhibition of vitamin K. Are vitamin K antagonists unique among anticoagulants for reducing PCa?

Your reasoning here is similar to that of those who argue that since Lupron is used to treat PCa, testosterone must be the cause of PCa.

But, to be on the safe side, perhaps we should give up spinach & other leafy greens high in vitamin K.

-Patrick

[Tall_Allen in reply to pjoshea13]

It's not my reasoning. I'm quoting a real study. It's specifically about Vitamin K antagonists (e.g., warfarin, coumadin, fucoidan, etc.) and not about anti-coagulants in general. The authors of the meta-analysis (not me personally) had the hypothesis they tested. Comparing it to testosterone is completely unwarranted because the testosterone story is about AR saturation, while the effect of Vitamin K antagonists in decreasing PC risk goes up with long-term use, suggesting a cumulative dose effect. Biochemistry doesn't lend itself to comparisons between chemicals - you don't get to make things up and assert they are true.

I suppose your last comment was supposed to be snarky. I never said anything of the sort. The OP's question was about supplements, not food - which are very different.

[pjoshea13 in reply to Tall_Allen]

I'm amazed that you do not see the absurdity of your apparent view that creating a vitamin K deficiency might be a good thing for men with advanced PCa. Warfarin takes a large number of men to the ER each year, & many bleed out before they get there.

An association between vitamin K & PCa risk is biologically implausible. Warfarin is associated with osteoporosis, arterial calcification & dangerous bleeding. This is entirely due to vitamin K deficiency.

Vitamin K antagonists are not used to treat hypervitaminosis K, they are used to treat blood clots. Abnormal coagulation is a hallmark of cancer & is associated with metastasis.

My parting reference to spinach was apropos IMO. Most get their vitamin K from greens. Vitamin K has a vital role in normal coagulation. A double-helping of greens will not increase clotting risk, but the elimination of greens because of some imagined PCa risk will increase coagulation time in some & lead to weak bones & blocked arteries in others.

-Patrick

[Tall_Allen in reply to pjoshea13]

Where did you get the idea that it is my "apparent" view that I think a deficiency of anything is good? Stop making up strawmen. You may be harming others by advocating supplements when the data do not warrant that.

[Kuanyin in reply to pjoshea13]

TA is cherry-picking again: even meta-studies may be wrong. Below is a study I choose to cherry-pick:

Vitamin K and its analogs: Potential avenues for prostate cancer management

Oncotarget. 2017 Aug 22; 8(34): 57782–57799.

Published online 2017 May 19. doi: 10.18632/oncotarget.17997

Abstract

Epidemiological studies have demonstrated a relationship between cancer incidence and dietary habits. Especially intake of certain essential nutrients like vitamins has been shown to be beneficial in experimental studies and some clinical trials. Vitamin K (VK) is an essential nutrient involved in the blood clotting cascade, and there are considerable experimental data demonstrating its potential anticancer activity in several cancer types including prostate cancer. Previous in vitro and in vivo studies have focused mainly on anti-oxidative effects as the underlying anticancer mechanism of VK. However, recent studies reveal that VK inhibits the growth of cancer cells through other mechanisms, including apoptosis, cell cycle arrest, autophagy, and modulation of various transcription factors such as Myc and Fos. In the present review, we focus on the anticancer effect of dietary VK and its analogs on prostate cancer, with an emphasis on the signaling pathways that are activated following exposure to these compounds. This review also highlights the potential of VK and its derivatives as an adjuvant treatment in combination with other vitamins or with chemotherapeutic drugs. Based on our recent results and a review of the existing literature, we present evidence that VK and its derivatives can potentially be explored as cancer therapy, especially for prostate cancer.

[pjoshea13 in reply to Kuanyin]

Kuanyin,

I can reason with most people. But how can one reason with someone who thinks that vitamin K supplementation is dangerous & that a deficiency, as caused by Warfarin & the like, is protective.

But then, it fits in with his crusade against supplements (even vitamins) & diets. The only safe & effective treatments are, seemingly, drugs & radiation.

I give up.

-Patrick

[cesanon in reply to pjoshea13]

Well I for one don't find these dialogs unproductive.

While it may not be particularly satisfying to you that you are unable to resolve them, I, and I am certain many lurkers, learn a lot from them.

And the world is a messy place. And complex biological systems often follow their own crazy, non-intuitive logic. There is only so far anyone can go without a good well designed, specifically targeted, clinical study, with lots of subjects, and a real control group.

The exchange of ideas and discussion on this forum is about as good as it gets for most of us. Your contributions are highly valued. I hope you keep them up.

[cigafred in reply to cesanon]

I second the motion.

[Hidden]

healthunlocked.com/advanced...

[cesanon in reply to Hidden]

Thanks for the link.

[cesanon in reply to Hidden]

Patrick

Would you please explain your posting at the above link. There seems to be some contradiction.

From the study: "After adjustment for confounders, dietary intakes of phylloquinone, menaquinones, and total vitamin K, assessed with either the DQX or DHQ, were not significantly associated with the risk of advanced, nonadvanced, and total prostate cancer. "

From Patrick quoting another study: "Our data showed that VK2 significantly inhibited CRPC VCaP cell proliferation in a dose-dependent manner at 48 h treatment in vitro. In addition, VK2 reduced the migration potential of VCaP cells and inhibited anchorage-independent growth of these cells. Our results also showed that VK2 induces apoptosis in VCaP cells. Furthermore, VK2 enforced growth arrest in VCaP cells by activating cellular senescence. Notably, VK2 treatment elevated the levels of reactive oxygen species in VCaP cells. Western blot analysis revealed that VK2 downregulated the expression of androgen receptor, BiP, survivin, while activating caspase-3 and -7, PARP-1 cleavage, p21 and DNA damage response marker, phospho-H2AX in VCaP cells."

[Hidden in reply to cesanon]

I think you did not send the post to Patrick but to me, please check.

[Hidden]

Great job. K-2 and D go hand in hand...

[cesanon in reply to Hidden]

I am still not certain what to make of this all. How to convert it into specific action.

I am not giving up my metformin. I will continue modest vitamin d to keep levels above 50. Maybe some modest k2 a few times a week. As artery health is at least as important as prostate cancer.

[Hidden in reply to cesanon]

Both important indeed. You started an active discussion . Thanks

[monte1111]

Thank you much, to all of you learned gentlemen. The discussion is way over my head, but since reading my last CT/bone scans, instead of stabbing myself in the eye, I would probably be better off stabbing myself in an artery.

[Hidden in reply to monte1111]

There will be no stabbing Monte. Dr wants to start me on prolia per the results of next weeks dexa scan .. Osteopenia sucks ... What a life.? Scans , blood test ,

[monte1111 in reply to Hidden]

Sounds like you are on top of things. That is great. No dexa scan for me. Guess they figure it would be a waste of time and money. I am spinning in the wind, waiting for Xtandi to fail. Hope the prolia works a long time for you. Odd, how I think that if something other than prostate cancer takes me off the stage, I am the winner. The morbid marathon. Think I'll just jog in place awhile. Guessing you are in the hills and out of the heat. Enjoy.

[Hidden in reply to monte1111]

We are all at the behest of this dwindling disease. I await the failure if my adt also.. “ jog in place”? Or I liken it to treading water friend . We go til we can’t go no more . We’re now at 5600ft . A big welcomed change here. My wife’s family having escaped the mullahs In Persia are all hoping for trump to put those Cocksuckers out of power. Trump said if one American life is lost that that is his red line . We shall see . We pray for the people there living under persecution.. hang in there Monte .

[cesanon]

Nal, you can't mean me, can you? LOL

[cesanon]

Well I will up you one. I have been seriously considering trying your gator blood birm.

But only because someone one here tested it on themselves and without any seeming confounding variables saw a tested jump in the CD4 T-cell lab results. LOL

[Hidden]

Amen!

[Hidden]

Yes brother. We are fine. Just finishing up downsizing and relocation to a better haunt .Im bored and frustrated with HU anymore . I have two lady friends from HU that recently ended the journey . It takes a tole on us all. Especially our partners . I’m in the gym after a period of laziness. On ward and upward Nal . Hang in there. My best to Mary . Shalom ! 🙏

[dragonbytes]

First, it's not clear at all that vitamin K actually helps slow down, prevent or decrease coronary calcification.

One review from 2020 Oct of previous studies:

Vitamin K Supplementation for the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease: Where Is the Evidence? A Systematic Review of Controlled Trials:

"Our assessment is that an improvement in surrogate measures of CVD with vitamin K supplementation has not been consistently demonstrated in the clinical trials to date and no clinical trial has examined important clinical events including mortality. In those trials that demonstrate a vitamin K treatment effect on a surrogate measure of CVD, the causal pathway linking the benefit to an improvement in dp-ucMGP has not been demonstrated. At present, it is not clear from human clinical trials that a causal pathway exists between vitamin K and reduced cardiovascular end-points that operates through enhanced MGP carboxylation and is responsive to vitamin K supplementation."

My own analysis is limited to taking a supplement called Koncentrated K (k-vitamins.com/) for a couple of years, my CAC score went up, which is not desirable but normal as you age, my scores were 79 then 119, not high for my age but still it went up. I also take vitamin D, I don;'t take any supplement for calcium though I do for magnesium. I have a definitive need for magnesium supplementation.

If vitamin K is helpful, then it's not wildly helpful and it maybe only on a case by case basis, it could have a genetic component or depend on other nutrient intake. It's just not clear.

I take Koncentrated K on the theory it "might" help and not likely to cause any harm if you are otherwise healthy, though it will interfere if you are taking a blood thinner. (BTW, you can usually find a coupon that gives you a 30% discount. )

My plan is to take another CAC test sometime in 2021 and go from there. If I get decease or no increase, I will keep taking vitamin K, if I get an increase I plan to stop. One confounding data point is my CAC test was from two different hospitals and the report emphasized different aspects of the scan.

[dilapidatedplatypus in reply to dragonbytes]

dragonbytes - I have a high CAC score as well (216) and I'm a 42 year-old male in good health and active lifestyle. Due to this score, I'm considering upping my K1/K2 and D3 supplements. Do you have an update on CAC scores post 2020 after being on Koncentrated K for years?