I am struggling with NDT. I have been for years. I take erfa NDT. I see a functional med doctor. My adrenals are weak and I've tried very hard to woek on them but I think other health issues keep them weak....like heavy metal issues etc.
My b12 js good as I do injections.
I take beef liver for iron and ferritin.
My vit d was on low end but supplementation brought it up.
Anyway. My functional doc saw my recent labs and my free t 4 was a 10 *range 10 to 25*
My tsh was 1.9
Free t3 was 3.8 *range 3 to 6.5*
My WBC Is always below normal.
My functional doc gave me t4 synthroid to add to my NDT. I am presently on 60 mg. When I go to 90 mg i feel good but can't sleep and awake for days.
I know 60 mg is too low. My question is will the synthetic t4 help ? It seems I'm converting my 60 ndt ....so I'm thinking I should ne able to convert the synthetic t4.
And isn't t4 synthetic more gentle on adrenals?
Any help appreciated thx.
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Nora3
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You cannot possibly tell if you are converting the T4 in NDT, because of the presence of the T3. What makes you think you are?
Synthetic T4 is exactly the same molecule as the T4 in NDT. It's just that the T4 in NDT comes as bound T4, not Free. So, if anything, the natural T4 should be gentler on the adrenals, if anything is.
Well previous labs showed a lower free t3 on this same dose. So functional doc said the free t3 is higher which means t4 is converting. My free t3 was below normal.
I don't do well on t3 alone I've tried.
So you are saying synthetic t4 will be harder on adrenals because it is un bound? That statement confuses me. Ndt comes as bound. Can you examine that....thx
Well, your functional doctor could be right and he could be wrong. But, I have my doubts. The only way to really know how well you convert is to be on T4 monotherapy for a while.
I'm not saying synthetic T4 will be harder on adrenals, I'm saying I don't see why it would be gentler. It's chemically the same as the T4 in NDT.
The T4 and T3 in NDT are bound, not Free. That means they are attached to a protein carrier which transports them round the blood. But, the body cannot use them until they are unbound - i.e. Free. Synthetic T4 is Free so is instantly ready for use.
Thanks so much for explaining. Appreciate this. I will fool around with my meds and see what I can come up with....I'm a human experiment at this point.
That I've been a special complicated case either lots of experimenting on differ delivery methods of meds. I'm taking Bio identical hormones and its taken me years to master them, different delivery methods tried, different compounding tactics etc...I'm just sensitive to so much etc. And she's been patient and excellent with allowing me to experiment and try many methods etc.
Ah, that's what all doctors should be like. They should allow thyroid patients to experiment with their doses, but they don't want to relinquish the power!
I was in a similar situation as you with trying to increase my Erfa. Taking Synthroid with my Erfa helped my adrenals slowly adjust and increase my Erfa.
Are you taking anything to support your adrenals? Share your b12, ferratin, vitamin d3 and folate levels with the ranges.
I tend to increase my Erfa about 15mg every 5 weeks. Im sensetive and it takes about 3 weeks for my symptoms to settle down after an increase. My usual symptoms are palpitations, chest pain sometimes, a pulsating sensation at the back where my adrenals are located and insomnia. By the third week it goes away. What's helped me the most is splitting up my doses and taking 2 adaptogens for my adrenals. I'm also on a boat load of other supplements.
I'm still in the process of improving my levels but I'll share below my labwork and doses to get an idea.
Yes I am taking adrenal support and I do self injected b12 shots. I am also taking beef loliver capsules to support iron and ferritin...etc. and my vit d was low and I supplemented and raised it into the above ranges. I do work with a naturopath doc as well. So i keep on top of testing. I think my toxic load may he heavy due to mercury toxicity and I'm working on this. It's just a slow process that is all.
I'm taking bio ray adrenal supplement which seems to be helping Me a lot. I'm super sensitive to supplements.
Your sharing of your labs and story is a great share. And I appreciate you taking the time to post your journey on all these different combos of t4 and NDT. It helps me see the changes and the different dosing you did to get there.
Do you mind sharing the 2 adrenal sups you are enjoying right now and find to he working. I'm always open to this knowledge. Thank you so much I appreciate your sharing!!! ❤️
Im sensetive to supplements as well. I'm taking ashwagandha by Purica. DGL by nature's way. I take 2 pills of the ashwagandha that totals to 300. For some strange reason I cant take anything greater. Likewise the dgl is a small dose of only 75. For some of reason thes combo has worked for me. I was dealing with high cortisol.
Thanks for sharing. Just to clarify DGL is more for digestive issues not adrenals because it is deglycyrrhizinated...at least that is my understanding. Thoughts ? Is it possible it is helping your gut and in return feels like it's helping adrenals?
Licorice is an adaptogen. I bought it for my digestion and found that taking it with my ashwagandha beneficial. The odd thing is that licorice is recommended to help improve low adrenals and ashwagandha is used to lower cortisol but the combination works for me. Plus the functional doctor I saw many yrs ago was the one who told me to take it after he saw my high cortisol test. For many yrs I took Ortho adapt vegan. I absolutely loved that supplement even thoughi use to take 1 pill. It has a mixture of adaptogens including ashwagandha and licorice. I stopped taking it after I realized the licorice wasnt dgl.
If I was in your shoes, I would add 25 mcg of Synthroid to your 60 mg of Erfa but split it up to 2 doses.
In the morning, Erfa 30 mg and 12.5 mcg of Synthroid. 30 mg of Erfa and 12.5 mcg of synthroid in the evening or night. 4 hours away from food and supplements
I have experience with this. I was on NDT armour for a few years. Every time I went over 60mcg my t3 would go over range and t4 remained out of range low. I then started adding in tirsont (t4) 25mcg to start then 50mcg. I still did not feel well on that combo and was systematic. In the end I upped the t4 to 100mcg and added in 9.5mcg of a compounded t3… I am still trying to adjust to this as the NDT did give me more energy and less body aches. I am 7 weeks in and aching all over and the afternoon fatigue is Unbearable. Many people do struggle with NDT due to the t3 and t4 not being able to adjust one at a time.
I have heard the NDT is not great when adrenals are struggling. My adrenals are terrible and I can not tolerate many meds.
Why doesn't your doctor increase your NDT? Adding synthetic T4 doesn't make any sense. People usually add T3 if anything. If you have problems converting T4 to T3 NDT has both in it and supports those who aren't great at conversion but if your conversion is very low then adding T3 would make sense or even moving to T3 only medication. Adding synthetic T4 doesn't make any sense unless they don't believe you need NDT but do believe you're slightly under medicated. Your adrenals could be helped by DHEA if your functional DR would entertain the idea.
She gave me dhea cream I originally had oral dhea but it wasn't working for me ...going down the androgen pathway.l plus made my already bad insomnia worse.
My dhea is rock bottom so I'm hoping i can tolerate the cream. So this will help adrenals ?
I've tried raising my ndt that was the first suggestion and I went from 60 to 90 split 3 x a day. And I felt great. But couldn't get to sleep and awake foe days. It gave me so much energy but zero sleep. At least now I can grt to sleep. I then wake up....but when I take the higher dose ndt I'm not getting to sleep nor do I get sleep.
I'm also taking e and p and t for Bio identical hormones and thise are in balance.
Also of note I've done t3 on its own and that's a disaster for me. Made me worse. Brain fog aches and joint pain.
sigh.......... Every body please stop using blood tests to drive NDT, it just doesn't work. Just take as much as you need to feel well each day. If 90mg keeps you awake - take 80 or or 70 or what ever - so long as you 're taking more than about 45 you're not going to die. So have a few days off and then start on 30 and work your way up, increasing every few weeks until you hit a bad side effect. Trust me you will be alot happier and wont even notice your adrenals and or vitamin deficiencies .
I've actually done this. Split my 30 mg tab up. That's what I do to raise. That's how i got to 60 and then worked up to 90. Using 1/4 of a pill and did it over weeks.
I still felt hypo That's why I made it to 90 mg split over 3 x a day. Felt amazing mood wise etc...but couldn't get to slee0 ...awake for days...so I dunno.
so if 90 is hyper and 60 is under. How about 70 or 80. For me 60 is just a little too much. I get a racing heart on the start line just before a race (sailing) and sleep is a little borderline . So about twice a week I drop down from 60 to 30 per day
my guess is you are not taking nearly enough ndt. Your t3 levels and your t4 levels are very low.
Yes adrenals ate weak and I tale adrenal support but this has been my personal scenario for almost 10 years. Tryonf to optimize thyroid and working on adrenals.
My lifestyle is so laid back and clean but my adrenals can't heal. So I'm thinking heavy metals....as I had mercury fillings out. So I'm gonna try and do a heavy metal gentle detox and hope after that I can raise my meds more.
But Ia gonna try thr synthroid and see If I have luck there in the meantime. As ndt is a harder push on adrenals due to the t3...for me anyway
have you looked at b12, Vit D, iron and folate? You could also do adrenal cocktails. What is your diet like? Enough protein is important I think. Have you tried raising more slowly? Also - are you on armour? I wonder if you could try just supplementing with levo/lio to get your levels where you want and might reduce the stimulation? I’ve no real reason for thinking that but might be worth a try x
Yes I do self injected b12 injections. Vit d was tested a few times and I found out I was low, supplemented and re tested many times and it's good now. Folate is good. My diet is clean and has been for years, Gluten free, no dairy no soy no fillers etc. I'm very whole food based and eat a rich hormone free antibiotic free meats. Trust me I'm pristine. I take good care of myself
I am a yoga instructor. All my products are clean etc.
That's why I feel I have an underlying deeper issue like heavy metals maybe.
I'm.on ERFA which I think is Armour. I need to restart adrenal coctail. I was on it yes. But as mentioned I have sleep issues and when I take too many sups my sleep worsens.
That's what I was wondering...if I try the t4 maybe it won't be as revving for me. My concern is rt3 and pooling if my adrenal issue causes this. Anyway I'm gonna try it and see. That's all I can do. I've heard it works for some so I hope I can be one of those people.
Not gonna lie I did try synthroid before the ndt and it made me depressed and suicidal...that was like 10 years ago.....but I'm hoping this won't be the case. I'll know soon enough.
I wonder if your diet is too restrictive, I made myself very intolerant to thyroid hormones by being overly restrictive, I now eat very abundantly compared to before and I think it helps settle the nervous system much more.
I think EFRA is different to armour but still an NDT.
I actually just came across this product that I think might be worth a try? So bovine I know has less T3 than porcine, and that might help you as it is less stimulating.
Thanks for the link. Looks like a nice clean product. Plus it's cow based. Sometimes i wonder if I'm reacting to the pork base in ndt I'm on. As I can't tolerate people in real life lol
I have histamine issues so my diet is clean for a reason. Trust me I use to be super structured and strict because I suffered IC. But that cleared up and my diet is very expanded. And yes it clean and whole food based but I also eat baked goods I make and treats etc.
But I'm celiac so need to be gluten free. And as far as dairy goes etc I do dentatured whey for extra protein. Etc but can't do direct dairy.
But thx for link. I also bought the supplement from ancestral supplements *their thyroid one and their adrenal one* I was gonna experiment.
I didn't pick the t4 up yet....I'm always cautious as I'm so sensitive. So maybe I'll try the natural sup first and see. Thx again
I take kidney and thymus from ancestral supplements...need to try DAO thanks for suggestion. I keep forgetting to add to my sup list. And I use to do nettle infusions. I need to start them again as so full of nutrition and a great way to get my fluids up. Thanks for the Suttle reminders !
I'll keep ya posted. I retest in February so I have until then to fool around.....I can test later as well but doc wanted labs redone then. So I'll see what I can do within that time frame and if I feel I haven't accomplished enough experimenting I'll delay the blood work a bit ....I really need to find a solution. Thank you ❤️
good luck! God the supplements get so annoying don’t they. I’m definitely rattling at the moment. Let me know if you try the bovine powder, I have a good feeling about it! X
I'm on the Ancestral supplements thymus, bone marrow, beef organs and about 2 weeks ago started their thyroid. I decided to try it because i was trying to compensate for my GP not renewing my synthroid due to low TSH. I just got my bloodwork today and the 3 pills of their beef thyroid kept my free t4 at the same level as when I was taking 25 mcg of synthroid. I made a post about my levels earlier today.
This is great. I was taking 1 ancestral supplement thyroid on top of my 60 mg and it didn't change my blood work at all. Maybe I need to add another one.
I also take their liver supplement, bone marrow, thymus and trachea. And I have their fish eggs. I also have their adrenal supplement but it seemed to make my sleep worse so I stopped it.
If you can, try to work up to the full suggested dosage of the Ancestral thyroid since you're on a low amount of ndt. Split it up to tolerate it. As you're able to increase erfa, decrease the ancestral thyroid. Maybe 15 mg of Erfa for 1 pill of ancestral thyroid????
I know its costly but try the beef organs as well. It's good for digestion. I want to eventually try their tripe and intestine when I can afford it God willingly. I was too scared to try adrenal glandulars, my system is too sensitive for that.
Yes thanks for this. I'm super sensitive as well. And that's probably why the adrenal supplement pushed me too much. I will look at the organ supplement. I love their supplements and yes there expensive but so worth it. My digestion is also not the best and I've been looking at their tripe and intestine. They sell out quickly as well as they're popular.
Thanks for your thoughts I'll work on the thyroid sup.
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