Strange results when adding NDT to Thyroid glandular

[Magicbullet]

I’ve been using 90mg (as 30mg 3x per day before meals) of a thyroid glandular for about a year (after slowly titrating up) and my blood results seemed ok

7/06/2022

TSH 0.005 (0.27 - 4.2) 

T4 15.2 (12 - 22) 32% 

 T3 5.89 (3.1 - 6.8) 75.4% 

I also have below range cortisol all day and take an adrenal glandular but still have a great lack of energy, digestive issues and lots of pain. Wanting to try to boost morning cortisol I added ¼ grain of NDT at bedtime and got some strange blood results 

31/01/2023

TSH 0.09 (0.27 - 4.2) 

T4 12.4 (12 - 22) 4%  

T3 4.4 (3.1 - 6.8) 35.1% 

Obviously, the thyroid glandular has no stated amounts of hormones and the NDT is the standard 38mcg T4 and 9mcg T3 per grain. My morning cortisol has risen up to low in the range but the afternoon and evening readings have dropped slightly. On balance I feel worse. 

Can anyone throw any light on why my thyroid levels should have dropped so much with an overall increase in thyroid meds? The only explanation I can think of is that increased cortisol production is causing a greater cellular uptake of thyroid and leaving less in the blood to be measured in testing. Does this sound reasonable? 

I’m not sure where to go from here so any advice would be much appreciated. 

Note: I’m self-diagnosed hypo-thyroid and self-medicating. I don't have Hashimotos. I always use Medichecks/Regenerus and do the thyroid tests at 8am and all vitamins are optimal.

[Noelnoel]

Interested to know your thinking behind adding NDT instead of increasing glandular a tiny bit

[Magicbullet in reply to Noelnoel]

It was only that I have been thinking of swapping from thyroid glandular to NDT and I had purchased some so thought I would start by adding some in.

[tattybogle]

did you test fT4/fT3 to see what they were immediately before you added the NDT ?.... those previous results are 7 months old .. and since you are taking a glandular , (if you only added the NDT relatively recently) you can't 100% rule out that it was a variation in the hormone content of that which has changed your levels, rather than the addition of the NDT.

[Magicbullet in reply to tattybogle]

No, I didn't test immediately. I added the NDT about 6 weeks after the test on 07/06/22 so I would have been on a different bottle of the glandular by then as I get through a bottle a month. I have had very stable results with the glandular but of course that's no guarantee that the potency won't change!

However, I did do further tests but only posted the last one as it was near the Cortisol Saliva test I did. Here are all of test results -

7/06/2022 (90mg thyroid glandular taken as 30mg x3, similar to previous results on this dosage)

TSH 0.005 (0.27 - 4.2) 

T4 15.2 (12 - 22) 32%  

T3 5.89 (3.1 - 6.8) 75.4% 

12/09/22 (thyroid glandular with addition of 1/4 grain NDT at bed from 03/08/22)

TSH 0.015

T4 13.6 (12 - 22) 16%  

T3 4.85 (3.1 - 6.8) 47.3% 

22/11/22 (I added another 1/4 grain NDT at bed on 1/10/22)

TSH 0.04

T4 13.2(12 - 22) 12%  

T3 5.4 (3.1 - 6.8) 62.2% 

31/01/2023 (worried that T4 was getting low I reverted to 1/4 grain NDT at bed from 04/12/22 but it's dropped even more)

TSH 0.09 (0.27 - 4.2) 

T4 12.4 (12 - 22) 4%  

T3 4.4 (3.1 - 6.8) 35.1% 

[tattybogle in reply to Magicbullet]

ok .. that's weird .... i'm stumped ...

[Magicbullet in reply to tattybogle]

Oh dear, me too. Thanks for replying though. I think I'll have to drop the NDT and add a little thyroid glandular as Noelnoel hinted at.

[Tlflom in reply to Magicbullet]

Sometimes increasing a drug that stops doing the expected may indicate a secondary cause. Endocrinologist are very good at teasing out the unexpected. Is seeing one possible for you? It is super important to take a full accounting of all meds, suppliments, and approximately what you eat. Are you having any digestive issues? Digestive problems of many kinds can cause malabsorbtion.

[Magicbullet in reply to Tlflom]

Yes, I do have food intolerances which was part of the reason for trying to fix adrenal/thyroid problems. I haven't been successful in this area but I haven't changed any foods that I eat over this period nor noticed a worsening of digestive discomfort.

With regard to an endocrinologist, I have thought about seeking professional help but I think I probably wouldn't choose an endo after reading all the horror stories posted on this forum. Generally I've found in the past that I seem to know more about my health and how to treat it than people I've paid to consult which is quite disappointing and expensive! May be it's time to ty again though.

[Noelnoel in reply to Magicbullet]

What were the test results that led you to the hypothyroid diagnosis

[Magicbullet in reply to Noelnoel]

The test results in August 2019 were

TSH 3.2 (0.27 - 4.2) 

T4 13.0 (12 - 22) 10%  

T3 3.73 (3.1 - 6.8) 17% 

Later antibody tests have always been similar at about

TPO ab <9IU/ml (0-34)

TG ab 15 (0-115)

So, not very hypothyroid going from TSH but I was feeling pretty horrible with no energy, weight gain, digestive problems, issues with various foods, aches and pains, there was a long list. I also had low adrenal function. It had all started during the peri-menopause and gradually got worse after my menopause in 2014. I had been privately prescribed various combinations of HRT but stopped it all in 2012 as it didn't seem to make much difference although I did continue to use progesterone on and off as I always tested low.

I decided to self treat following some horrible encounters with doctors, I found it really difficult to stand up for myself feeling at such a low ebb.

[Tlflom in reply to Magicbullet]

Remember TSH has an inverse relationship with the thyroid. Meaning if the TSH is low, energy and function is high. I try to keep my level at the low end of normal for the positive attributes. Some interactions can be complex between the different hormones, diet suppliments, and prescriptions. Sorry you have had a tough time with docs. It can be challenging to find the right one.

[Noelnoel in reply to Magicbullet]

Sorry for all the questions but your post caught my eye because I too take Metavive and adrenal glandulars. Did you consider raising the adrenal glandular instead of introducing NDT and if so why did you decide against it

[Magicbullet in reply to Noelnoel]

I take the Procepts glandulars too. I chose to try more thyroid to increase morning cortisol because the circadian T3 method seems to work for some people, although I didn't want to wake my self in the early morning so I wondered if taking a dose of thyroid glandular at bedtime would have the same result. Adding the NDT at bedtime did raise my morning cortisol but lowered my thyroid levels.

As I explained in my reply to Pennyannie the adrenal glandular never seemed to do much except raise my progesterone.

[Noelnoel in reply to Magicbullet]

I’m not familiar with the circadian T3 method

I’m a little unclear about what you’re saying but you decreased the amount of adrenal glandular, correct? So then naturally it would affect cortisol levels

Anyway, aside from that, did you realise there’s an adrenavive lll. It’s the same as ll in that it cortex only but double the quantity. At £11 cheaper than buying two tubs of adrenavive ll, it’s more cost-effective although you would have to split the capsule because it contains 300mg of the complex

[Magicbullet in reply to Noelnoel]

Sorry, the C3T method was discovered by Paul Robinson and it involves waking yourself about 4 hours before your natural waking time and taking a dose of T3 or NDT. For some people this boosts morning cortisol quite a bit. He doesn't say that it can also lower thyroid levels but maybe the higher cortisol means that more thyroid hormone get into cells and therefore doesn't show up in blood tests.

I did know about Adrenavive III but thanks for mentioning it. I had titrated up to using 2 x Adrenavive III plus 1 x Adrenavive II by middle of 2022 but even this didn't raise my cortisol levels much and my already low DHEA dropped even more from when I started self treating. I decided to try swapping some of the (expensive) Adrenavive for (cheaper) progesterone as the Adrenavive appeared to be mostly raising my progesterone levels.

My progesterone was too low in 2019 and progesterone is required to make cortisol. I've no idea why the Adrenavive was mostly raising my progesterone but raising cortisol only a little.

I'm guessing that Adrenavive contains progesterone and cortisol as they are both made in the cortex of adrenal glands.

Saliva tests below -

The 1st saliva test, 27/08/19, is before starting to use thyroid and adrenal glandular, at that time blood progesterone was <0.159 nmol/l (range <0.401 post menopause)

The 2nd saliva test, 09/06/22 is just before I added NDT and swapped adrenal glandular for progesterone, at that time blood progesterone was 2.55 nmol/l (range <0.401 post menopause), I wasn't using anything else that would raise progesterone.

Saliva tests

[pennyannie in reply to Magicbullet]

Taking anything containing T3 will likely drop your TSH and T4 levels -

though surprised that such a small amount of NDT has caused such a difference:

Your thyroid supplements are working well for you and though I'm sure they likely carry T3 possibly the ' make up ' of the supplement is different to that of the NDT tablet.

I'd be inclined to drop the NDT as your results are no better for it :

Maybe consider increasing your adrenal glandular ?

[Magicbullet in reply to pennyannie]

Yes, I was surprised too that it could make such a difference.

Your comment about increasing the adrenal glandular has prompted me to look back at what I was taking at the time of the odd tests. I can see now that about 2 weeks after adding the 1/4 grain of NDT I reduced the adrenal glandular and added some progesterone. This was for 2 reasons - the saliva tests I have had done over the last few years whilst using the adrenal glandular have showed a raised progesterone and low cortisol, with cortisol hardly getting into the reference range let alone the optimal range. As the adrenal glandular is very expensive and progesterone is much cheaper I thought I'd see if it had the same effect. I lowered the adrenal glandular a little more a week or so after raising the NDT to 1/2 grain, I think because I wanted to stretch out the end of a bottle.

One of my issues is brain fog / unable to think properly so, whilst I know it's not very sensible to change several things at once, I completely forgot on this occasion.

I think my way forward is to do as you suggest and drop the NDT and increase the adrenal glandular and take a deep breath over the cost!

[pennyannie in reply to Magicbullet]

Yes, it's always suggested to just change one thing at a time - it makes sense - as hormones take time to settle - though, sometimes, time isn't on our side.