Heart Issues etc but still confused over thyroid - Thyroid UK

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Heart Issues etc but still confused over thyroid

Saggyuk profile image
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Hi Guys

Apologies for my last post, I was in a very bad way and struggling with anything written/ requiring thought :-D

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

And apologies again for the lengthy post - it's just a bit complicated I suppose and I'm running out of ideas.

I've been having issues with my heart and seemingly my autonomic nervous system (ANS) since I was in Hospital at the beginning of March. I had multiple issues but also sinus tachycardia and POTS. At the time my heart rate was 120-130 lying down, 150 sitting up and 180 and out of sync beat upon standing - a difference of 50 (as per POTS) linked to the autonomic nervous system (ANS) and all my symptoms mentioned in above post do correlate with ANS and HRV is dire also indicative supposedly so I suppose I will go with that as being the issue. Was completely unable to do anything even stand up for more than a few minutes or sitting up for too long.

I did have an echocardiogram/ 7 day ECG Monitor and there was nothing found to be wrong with heart or valves physically or structurally so doc said it's something driving my heart rather than my heart itself. Also had the veins in my legs and pelvic area checked for another reason and they were found to be in pretty good condition although was noted I have a lot of fluid in my legs that should be investigated. I do smoke but all doctors had to admit that there is currently no evidence at this time of this being a cause of said issues or valve issues etc. I do really want to quit but am reluctant at the moment due to current exaggerated stress responses that I don't want to worsen. They also checked some adrenal issues via metenephrines and hydroxyindoleacetic Acid but nothing significant. They suggested caused by Covid (easy way out) but no indications of having been ill prior to March or current antibodies - I likely caught it last February 2020 though.

Was prescribed Ivabradine but decided not to take it until worked out what was behind it as is my usual stance. Figured I may have just buggered my ANS via not getting enough sleep or lifestyle etc and wanted to check for patterns to get to the bottom of it. Anyway, fixed a few things and have it a little more under control and can function again to a degree and do school runs etc - the difference of 50bpw is still pretty much there (30 or just under on period) but managed to get my heart rate from between 60-85/90 to 120-150 lying to standing (60 obviously being asleep lol) depending on good or bad days by effectively micro managing my ANS (which is exhausting tbh). All sorts of things make it worse that I've learned to avoid- too hot (mostly) or too cold, eating too much or not eating/drinking enough, doing too much physically or sitting still for too long and so on, also stress responses and allergic reactions are heightened too etc etc and have a bad impact plus I'm having to manage my blood sugar levels a little better.

Anyway, sorry for the lengthy background but now onto my thyroid as I'm just soo suspicious something not right there still. I used to be on T3 only for 15 years+ (60mcg) as they couldn't get my tsh down any other way and T3 levels under range. However, against the consultant's wishes, started on a little bit of T4 a few years back as started to have issues when T4 dropped to unrecordable levels (assumed thyroid died as had autoimmune thyroid issues for almost 30 years and because my TSH went funny and a little T4 did the job). However, I found more and more that I just could not tolerate the T3 anymore and have been switching this out for more T4 for the past couple of years. Since last year I was supposed to be on 100mcg T4 and 20mcg T3 split between two doses a day. But again found I just could not tolerate the second dose of T3 many days anymore so mostly started only taking 100/10 although did take the full dose a couple of days in the week before I was in hospital as felt so tired. The above occurred and couldn't tolerate barely any thyroid meds for a few days or more so kept missing doses almost entirely from when I was in hospital as felt hyper and then did a test:

03/03/21

TSH 1.15 (0.27-4.2)

T4 18.3 (12-22)

T3 7.25 (3.1-6.8)

Please note that these were taken at the wrong time as were in a heap of other tests looking at other things so wasn't really looking for the thyroid labs so were only a 2 hours after taking dose of 100/10 together. Historically my TSH would have normally been suppressed at these thyroid levels.

I felt positively hyper but as the helpful people here pointed out, because the test was taken two hours after dose, they likely were artificially high and that I am undermedicated and likely the cause of my problems as not taking full dose (plus I had taken biotin within 24 hours) so figured maybe I am undertreated and just not having the same symptoms as usual or maybe my body got too used to T3 only for so many years that my systems not happy with these changes.

So I forced myself to stay on 100 T4 and 10 T3 since (separately unlike before with T3 late afternoon only) and gave it a while to retest without biotin too and at the right time. However throughout this time tracking, I have noticed some patterns such as I am definitely sensitive to my thyroid meds and my heart rate is worse after taking the morning dose coming down around 4.30 and then again after the evening T3 only starting to come down at around 11pm and then significantly further (almost normal) some point between 1-4am in the morning. Then I take my dose of T4 again and it starts all over again. Not every day but most days seem to follow this pattern. My results having taken the same dose for a couple of months with 24 hours after T4 and 12 hours after T3 (apart from I did accidentally take the T3 with dinner/food for this test so likely absorbed a little less than usual):

24/05/21 8am

TSH 0.51 (0.27-4.2)

T4 16.3 (12-22)

T3 5.6 (3.1-6.8)

This to me suggests I definitely would have been high on the 100T4 and 20T3 from last year so was right in my extinct to keep skipping the 2nd T3 dose many days since then anyway as these seem perfectly fine (if not better than expected) just as I would be taking another dose.

However although perhaps okay on this dose, I am definitely still feeling more pants when I take my meds and I can't ignore other factors such as the significant weight loss of two stone since the last test even steady on the 100T4 and 10T3 nor other indicators such as my nails are literally growing two or three times faster than their normal rates and I am too warm all the time (super cold since a child) with hands that are really red and so hot my daughter can no longer hold them and I cannot hold a wrapped choc bar more than 3 seconds before melting it to oblivion so am still not comfortable that nothing is up with me thryoid levels.

I figured doing the test again at the point at which my heart rate drops at night might offer some clues to see whether I am spending the majority of the day hyper and this is what I got around 12.30am (should have done them a little earlier tbh):

14/06/21 Midnight

TSH 0.38 (0.27-4.2)

T4 15.2 (12-22)

T3 5.5 (3.1-6.8)

They are pretty much exactly the same as the ones I did 8 hours later which is really confusing me!! The ones in the morning are actually better than these taken 8 hours earlier. Admittedly they were on different days so not directly associated but my thyroid labs were always so consistent in the past you could literally tell what time of day I did the blood test from how much it had changed or dropped off so this really is not my usual and something has changed from the 3 decades I've had thyroid issues. I'm thinking I should do them again but on the same night?

I decided to do my antibodies too just to see and these were somewhat surprising to me too:

TPO - 243 (0-34)

TG - 76.6 (115+)

I know these are often up and down but I've had about 20 tests over the years and my TGs have always been very high and my TPOs are half of what they've always been and can see they've been reducing with each test in the past few years on the tracker. But as noted, likely insignificant I know.

Anyway, I suppose at least I can write off having been undermedicated as being the cause and clearly I am not having a problem with converting T4 into T3 like I used to as only on 10mcg of T3 so can't be that my body was too used to T3 only like I desperately pondered as there's enough T3.

I still feel pants though and I still feel wrong and cannot ignore that many of symptoms are typically of being high and not how I feel when I've been hypo which I've had a lot of experience with over the decades so as of last weekend I reduced my dose to 75mcg T4 and 10T3 just to see what happens as figured a couple of weeks shouldn't hurt too much and my instincts telling me to get off the T3 previously and then reduce were obviously correct. If it doesn't work, I'll just have to take 75 and 20 until I can get new prescription for 100 again.

I've had mixed results to be honest. Most of the things I've been tracking are improved a little this week - resting heart rate/sleeping heart rate, the high heart rate up until a certain point at night moved to much earlier, HRV has gone up to a more normal 30+ and stayed there. Iam having more tingling again though. Even Friday, I was walking around outside the office momentarily and my heart rate stayed at 90 for about 15 minutes which is astonishing. However other times, it's just as bad or worse especially with brain and tiredness/alertness but it's actually worse than before after taking meds which is confusing me even more so. Both yesterday and today after taking the morning T4, I had sweaty palms, fast heart for no reason etc and felt crap until about 10.30pm yesterday. My brain was not functioning at all even though I imagined going totally hypo would take a little longer and was almost ready to take meds and give up as thinking I can't cope with this and what am I doing but then I suddenly felt hugely better at 10.30pm - after my levels drop a little I would assume? slightly better today but am resting but super hot. So my meds are having an impact some how or another but possibly I'm just sensitive to them because of what else is going on like everything else I am sensitive too at the moment,

I'm still searching for answers though, all other labs and tests haven't come up with much to be honest - maybe a few changes that I noted could indicate a high turn over of red blood cells or something else like that up and I am struggling to keep my iron up at the moment unlike previously. My eyesight is still too blurry and I'm struggling with this. The opticians I saw a few weeks after hospital say it's an expected change at my age and just need new glasses but I can't help but wonder why it happened so suddenly on the exact same day I went into hospital and why it's got worse again since having the eye test so must go back.

The only other pattern I've got to work with is that there are normally significant improvements for a few days on my period which is in opposition to most female POTS patients. I've checked all my female hormones a couple of times in the past month (once as included in other tests and the other more in depth including testosterone, progesterone and prolactin). There's nothing seemingly up with these - well apparently I'm more likely to still be able to have a baby than I was last year perhaps :-D I think testosterone is too low as not really got a proper result, just less than 0.4 but their range started from zero. I was again surprised at this as have had no sex drive for the past few years and grow beard hairs (wonderful) so figured might be down to high testosterone but clearly not. I obviously did these on my period as you are supposed too which is the point at which I feel better but I think I will redo them in the latter half of my cycle perhaps to try and work out why it's better on my period which then might give me a clue as to why I'm having these issues or what might be piggy backing off these hormones at other times.

I also want to do my cortisol but medichecks aren't doing the saliva ones at the moment - is there anyone else you can suggest with reliable results? I perhaps need to so some more blood tests in the adrenal areas too to write that out as have had failing adrenals/issues in the past.

Obviously I may need to see a neurologist too but just trying to discount the more obvious first - plus would nervous system problems improve on your period - I would assume not??

I'm starting to ponder a few other things too - as many doctors warn whether fact or fiction, maybe this is the result of being on T3 only for too many years when I really shouldn't have been. Or maybe a system can only cope with the over range/under range of unbalanced levels of thyroid replacement hormones for so many decades that wouldn't be the case without thyroid issues.

Anyway, suggestions of anything I might not be seeing or am missing would be hugely appreciated or anything else you can suggest to look into.

Many thanks, Sarah

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Saggyuk
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SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator

I also want to do my cortisol but medichecks aren't doing the saliva ones at the moment - is there anyone else you can suggest with reliable results?

Regenerus cortisol and DHEA test is the one recommended on here

thyroiduk.org/help-and-supp...

regeneruslabs.com/products/...

Saggyuk profile image
Saggyuk in reply to SlowDragon

Thank you :-)

radd profile image
radd

Saggyuk,

Your test results seem to have been taken at all different times so difficult to compare but having elevated thyroid antibodies can make one feel hyper. Also, inadequate iron can make thyroid meds not work properly and give heart bangs & palpitations.

I previously suffered balance issues & feeling drunk, and they wanted to investigate me for POTS. Because symptoms hadn't always been there I refused. Obviously there are some whose cases are genuine but for others I think it's when bodily systems become so out of kilter, as like many other seemingly unassociated symptoms, they resolved when I finally managed to achieve effectively working optimal thyroid meds and improve adrenal function.

I agree it would be good to investigate cortisol levels. Also have you had ferritin tested recently?

Saggyuk profile image
Saggyuk in reply to radd

Thanks Radd

My antibodies have always been very high - until the one in range now. I don't necessarily feel hyper - just definitely not hypo (always got headaches with hypo and more tired with hyper) but I've lost two stone, and everything feels like it's working or growing too fast hence why I'm suspicious. It's not on and off - most days even if I don't do anything at all and just sit, I am apparently in exercise mode for 14 hours+. Every little thing my body has to deal with, makes it just that little bit worse. For example, the doctor told me I have to have tepid baths as they were making it worse and the same with the heat, eat too much and worse - doc said because it's redirecting blood away from the heart. But basically anything and everything is a problem right now .

I did check Cortisol in December as was starting to feel a bit off - it was just a little high at night and in the morning but only just and that should be improved now as gave up caffeine and getting better sleep (when my heart not kicking off anyway) but will definitely recheck them. I know it can't be low as I've been under range before and that was completely different Only thing I question is with everything off with my struggling system, I'm kind of expecting them to be on the high side anyway but I've ordered the above tests.

Ferritin is just not staying up but they are not as bad as I have been - was anaemic all my life on pills still on bottom of ranges until I stopped eating wheat and gluten and this issue doesn't feel like that either. They were mostly stable and higher until just recently nothing seems to be working as usual like spatone stuff which normally pops me back up again. I suppose I'll have to go back to the iron pills and dodgy tummies for a bit but can you actually buy this without prescription?? Labs are:

24/05/21

Iron 11.4 (6.6-26)

TIBC 57 (41-77)

Transferrin saturation 20 (20-55)

Ferritin 29 (13-150)

05/03/21

Iron 16.77 (5.8-34.5)

TIBC 57.47 (45-72)

UIBC 40.7 (24.2-70.1)

Transferrin saturation 29.18 (20-50)

Ferritin 36.1 (13-150)

I believe the Ferritin before that was 40 something and then higher before that. No real indication in red blood count with the exception of MCHC keeps coming back over range the past year although apparently okay now. Haematocrit has swerved sharply to the top too though.

Anyone know of where I can buy decent ferrous fumarate from? Can you trust some of these online pharmacies I've never heard of?

I've had so many thyroid problems ranging from severe hypothyroidism as has been left untreated for 8 years with near coma, ataxia, memory loss (to the extent I had to relearn all vocab) etc to hyper after birth and after going GF and this feels like nothing I've ever experienced before - I honestly feel like my heart's about to give way. Sounds like you were on the start of ataxia by the way lol!

To be honest by last night, I think the lower dose caught up with me by last night and my heart went wild meaning no sleep and had to pop a T3 so not sure how long I can keep this up but wanted to do a blood test first - probably meaningless after such a short time but I'm desperate for answers. I imagine it's probably not my thyroid and my system just doesn't cope with the swingyness of the meds right now but I suppose I'm just desperately ruling anything out that presents an issue to see what I'm left with as cannot find what the problem is. I'm sure it's a hormone somewhere but can't put my finger on it.

Truly sorry for ranting on as I appear to be right now - just so desperate. But thank you, you've pushed me to realise I can't just ignore my falling iron levels so will ensure I will treat this properly now.

Thanks again :-)

radd profile image
radd in reply to Saggyuk

Saggyuk,

Ferritin changes all the time. That is why an iron panel is needed for a more complete picture. Also raising haematocrit on its own is meaningless because is dependant on the number & size of RMC’s.

You are anemic & if your iron has always been low, have causes been investigated? I have iron over-load myself so am not familiar with supplementing. I would assume Spatone wouldn’t be sufficient, and members seem to like ferrous fumarate. You will need to write a new post using ‘Iron Supplements’ (or similar) as your heading for others to comment.

If you are deficient in iron there is a strong chance you are also low in VitB12, folate & Vit D. Have these been tested recently?

All thyroid meds, especially T3 must be taken consistently. If you have to keep ‘skipping the 2nd T3 dose’ then perhaps you are medicating too high a total amount. Even if it's only 'too high' because your body is intolerant to that amount, in which case splitting the total more than twice a day might help. Some members have to split-dose up to four times a day. I had to start on three times which I was able to reduce to twice a day after about 6 months.

The heart is extremely dependant on T3 and we can’t just ‘pop a T3 pill’ when our heart starts playing up. It is essential to achieve a consistent & stable dose that supplies the heart enough T3 to function correctly.

Good biochemistry gives us confidence we are heading in the right direction but symptoms are our true guide & which usually lag behind anyway. Hence why when we know our meds are about the right amount it is better to concentrate on the fundamentals required for making those meds work more effectively. Raising iron (which I know can be difficult) should help meds be better tolerated & work more effectively.

If you have unintentionally lost 2 stone, this should be discussed with your doctor.

Saggyuk profile image
Saggyuk in reply to radd

Hi Radd

Apologies, I think I'm confusing issues because I'm talking too much but please bear with me :-P

Mentioning the MCHC and heamatocrit was just me saying that's the only not so normal for me things in my blood count but otherwise it's all perfectly healthy looking (haemoglobin in the middle etc) and not showing anaemia and obviously my iron was much better before this all kicked off in March - just decreasing ever since so although I maybe becoming anaemic now, it wasn't the cause of my heart issue as such.

Historically, I was always anaemic since a teen to my 30s and was on prescribed ferrous fumarate continuously for a long time but still anaemic with the meds but no one did anything about it - this stopped about 5 years ago after I had been off gluten for a year or so and I've been fine since - until now anyway. If I did dip a little every now and then, a few spatones would normally deal with the issue but these don't appear to be doing much at the mo so know I need ferrous fumarate.

In regards to thyroid meds, please understand I'm honestly not just taking what I want everyday willy nilly. Just to clarify - I was supposed to be on 100mcg T4 and 20mcg T3 which was split into two doses but since the latter part of last year, I kept feeling bad after taking the second T3 dose so started skipping it sometimes as simply just couldn't tolerate it. However, since I went into hospital in March and questioning whether I'm still high (or possibly hypo as not really taking my full dose), I have stuck religiously to 100T4 and 10T3 in order to gauge exactly where I am -so that's been a constant for 3 months and then did this test taken correctly in all matters:

24/05/21 8am

TSH 0.51 (0.27-4.2)

T4 16.3 (12-22)

T3 5.6 (3.1-6.8)

This to me appears that I was right in not taking the second dose of T3 earlier on in the year/last year although do let me know if you disagree as any opinions are truly appreciated right now.

In regards to my comment of having just popped one, it's just I wanted to see what would happen if I went down a dose again as symptoms are very typical of being hyper and I've already reduced a dose with seemingly no real changes to my labs- but this has only been since last weekend and only because I'm trying to rule it out as feel worse every time I take meds so reduced the T4 to 75 to see what would happen. I was just admitting that it probably wasn't the best idea to have done this and had to pop an extra T3 (the dose I probably should be on) because I was feeling so horrendous after a week on the lower dose :-D

I've tried and tried with the doctors but am getting no where, they just keep putting it down to heart problem caused by Covid or something and want me on pills to reduce my heart rate. There is no evidence of covid whatsoever and I want to get to the bottom of it rather than stick a plaster on it that won't deal with the cause or could even make it worse as they don't know what the issue is yet. They know I've lost weight but just put it to the fact that apparently I'm doing cardio exercise for 10-14 hours per day even though I'm just sitting there or lying down as not really doing much. Actual hard exercise makes it too bad and unstable so just can't really cope with that at the moment but am trying to walk for 1/2 hour to hour everyday minimally.

The other vit levels were okay but not ideal - checked them in March. I normally keep a closer eye on them but lockdown delayed me getting them done when I usually do in December. I've corrected these now so should now be much better than below:

05/03/21

Vit D 57.5 (50-200)

B12 85.7 (37.5-187.5) - Active B12

Folate 10. 89 (>3.89)

Actually I just checked the Vit D result from a month ago that docs did with theirs and my level of Vit D is now 51. Hmmm that makes no sense at all as I've been taking 4000iud with K2 regularly since then and got more sun. Maybe my system doesn't want higher Vit D so should check calcium again perhaps??? Can't order this test myself though. Ah hadn't noticed that before!

Anyway - many many thanks for your time again :-)

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