Does anyone else struggle with which supplements to take....
I’m not the slightest bit scientifically minded, which doesn’t help, but do my best to assimilate and understand all I can...
I read what the experts suggest......unfortunately advice given never marries up with any products that are out there ! Unless of course you want to spend a fortune on single supps,...and I already spend more than I can really afford on things That are for me basics...
I take single supps for...
VIT C
VIT D
OMEGA 3
OMEGA 7
MAGNESIUM
GOOD B COMPLEX...BIOCARE METHYL B COMPLEX
THis is my list...and I simply want to add a good multi to fill in the gaps...it seems .IMPOSSIBLE !
I’ve been reading about the perils of FOLIC ACID...and the preferability of FOLATE..so with that in mind I just can’t seem to find g anything to fit the bill..
ANY IDEAS , ANYONE ?
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Jollypolly
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There's no such thing as a 'good multivitamin'. They are all bad, for one reason or another - mainly because a) there's never enough of anything to do any good, and b) because you just shouldn't be taking a bunch of things all in one go like that.
The folate should be in your B complex. Methylfolate, at least 400 mcg. You shouldn't need it in a multivitamin as well.
But, what you do need to add to your list of supplements you take separately, is vit K2 - MK7. Because you are taking vit D3, which raises absorption of calcium from food. The K2 makes sure the calcium goes into the teeth and bones, and doesn't build up in the soft tissues.
I think you should take what you need. And multivits contain things you don't need! Like copper, iodine and calcium. Hypos usually have high copper and low zinc, so adding more copper is not a good idea. Iodine is not recommended for hypos, either, and you get iodine from your thyroid hormone replacement. And calcium supplements are a bad idea full stop.
What's more, they usually contain iron, which blocks the absorption of the vitamins. Then, the calcium binds with the iron, so you can't absorb either of those, either. So, basically, what you're doing with a multivit/mineral, is paying for expensive urine, because it will all be excreted in the end, and you will get nothing out of it.
Actually, I do often disagree with their lists of stuff you should take - as noted above, copper, iodine and calcium. Just blindly taking a load of stuff is not going to help. You need to get your vit D, vit B12, folate and ferritin tested, as a base, and then build up what you need to take from there. Have you done that?
Reading through your response to Susie...
'...Dr PEATFIELD gives a list of recommended supps...in that list is High Strngth B complex...'
Yes, I agree you need B vitamins, but just taking any old B complex won't work, because of the reasons Susie explains. Plus, if you start taking B12 and folate, without getting tested first, you could miss out on a diagnosis of B12 deficiency. If Dr Peatfield didn't suggest the testing, and explain the type of B complex you should be taking, details of the contents, etc., then that is very remiss of him.
'...plus a list of other things which would roughly equate to a multi vit and mineral....'
'Roughly' is the right word, there! As I said, you need to look at the quantities of the contents, and the quality. If a multi-vit contains magnesium oxide, cyanocobalamin, folic acid, then it's obviously just going for the cheapest, poor quality ingredients, and won't help you at all.
All in all, multivitamins are just a huge great con, that keeps the worried-well happy, because they think they are doing something positive for their health, and makes a fortune for the manufacturers. They are not intended for people with absorption problems and nutrient deficiencies.
These things should not be taken all together like that, if you want to absorb them. I'm not disagreeing that you might need to take all the ingredients - which would be proved by testing - I'm disagreeing with taking them all at once in one little pill. Some need to be taken on their own, some with food, some without food... Surely, even logic must tell you that a multivitamin is never going to work.
You also say that you have had your magnesium tested and it is 'good'. The result of a magnesium test is always 'good', because of the way the body handles magnesium. But, a 'good' result doesn't mean that you aren't deficient, most people are because soils are depleted. So, it's as well to supplement.
Your Biocare Methyl B Complex contains 250mcg methylfolate. It's basically a B25 - 25 of eveything except for a couple of ingredients - and I don't rate those very much, I don't think they're balanced and it's more than the recommended amount of B6 (which is recommended to be 10mg daily).
If you post your vitamin and mineral test results, and say what brands and doses of supplements you are taking, we can see if you've got the best for you and if there are actually any gaps to fill.
And as Greygoose says, when taking D3 we need K2-MK7.
THANKYOU for replying...well, it’s all very confusing ...Dr PEATFIELD gives a list of recommended supps...in that list is High Strngth B complex...plus a list of other things which would roughly equate to a multi vit and mineral....
It seems there are various schools of thought about this subject..and frankly it’s all very confusing !
I have long standing hashimotos, plus long standing adrenal insufficiency..both being addressed .
I only have two vit trst results...magnesium and vit d.....bith of which are good but I keep a dose going for maintenance. It’s intersting about the k2-MK7.... but where All this leaves me now I’m not sure!
A multivitamin and mineral isn't a good idea. It's generally said that vitamins should be taken in the morning and minerals in the evening. Lumping everything together in one supplement means that they are competing and something isn't going to be absorbed properly.
A lot of multis contain iron - if it does then nothing else can be absorbed because iron needs to be taken at least 2 hours away from other supplements.
If it contains calcium then even the iron wont be absorbed, and calcium should be tested and found to be deficient before supplementing.
Some contain iodine or kelp - again iodine should be tested and only supplemented if deficient, and then under the supervision of an experienced practioner.
As you have Hashi's, are you taking selenium as that can help reduce the antibodies. It should be the l-selenomethionine form of a yeast based selenium, avoid selenite and selenate as they're poorly absorbed. 200mcg is the normal recommended daily dose.
Thanks for this...It’s all too complicated for me...I actually can’t deal with it all..I like to do the right thing..obviously, it’s in my interests to...
But I just can’t cope with it all mentally..it sounds as if you’re a nutritionist..or perhaps you know one !
What do you think then , of the advice of most of the experts...Dr PEATFIELD, for example....he just lists various vits and minerals as recommended for hashimotos people......
No, I'm not a nutritionist but I do a lot of reading and looking into things, I've learnt to test and supplement where I need to at the right dose and with the right form of the vitamin/mineral.
I rate Dr P highly but my own research has led me to some supplements that don't contain unnecessary ingredients and fillers and that is what I prefer so I wouldn't necessarily use the brands he recommends and for me, personally, I wouldn't use the fixed amounts in B25, B50, etc.
For example, your Biocare Methyl B complex contains 250mcg methylfolate. If you tested and your folate was found to be rock bottom (as mine was) then a B Complex with a higher amount of methyfolate would be better, 400mcg is a better amount to raise a low level. And if you were low in B12 you'd want a separate B12 supplement because the B Complex only contains 250mcg which wont raise a low level.
He also recommends taking 15mg iron daily - well you wouldn't want to do that if your iron levels are high.
Again he recommends 1000-1500mg Calcium - that definitely needs testing before supplementing.
So it's knowing what you are low or deficient in and supplementing accordingly. If everything is optimal then maintaining those levels will need a different amount.
Further to your reply...I’ve been taking the supplements I originally listed plus Vitabiotics Cardioace...it contains Sodium Selenate...so it’s obviously not much good..
I would have an appt or two with a nutritionist if necessary..which I Guess it is...but I don’t know who to really trust,..esp accounting for the Hashimoto bit,..
I always think of nutritionists as a bit of a wild card,,
Who do you trust ....any ideas ? You live at the seaside...presumably...so do I..can you recommend anyone in the south east,,.Colchester area perhaps ?
Is there a particular reason you take Cardioace? It is a Multi which contains some B vitamins which you should check against your Biocare and see how much in total you are taking, plus it contains folic acid rather than methylfolate, then there's iodine (should be tested first to see if deficient) and it contains iron so there's not much chance of anything else being absorbed. The Vit E is from soya which we hypos should avoid. The B12 is cyanocobalamin which should be avoided and methylcobalamin used instead and magnesium is the oxide form which is the least absorbable. Then there's the bulking agents and the anti-caking agents. So all in all not a particularly good supplement in my opinion.
I live on the Wales coast so can't help with any recommendations. I used a 'practioner', spent a fair bit of money and wasn't particularly impressed. She did steer me in the right directions with supplements and I did my own thing from there on.
I originally posted bescause I felt I should change from Cardioace..
I’ve taken a vitabiotics supp since my twenties and I’m now 68...
But your comments are all very valid and I haven’t any problem with them
Yes...your experience with nutritionist is what I fear..and how the heck do you know...
I had thought the bio care was good.,.so yes, I am extra thrown now ! Not your fault...I just want it simple...if only there was someone to work it out..🙄
Clutters response to me was blissfully simple...tempting...but which road to go down ??? Aargh...!
I think the best place to start is with testing vitamins and minerals if not already done.
Vit D
B12
Folate
Ferritin
These are the ones that are commonly deficient or levels are low and it's important for us hypos to have them at optimal levels so that thyroid hormone can work.
Biocare is a decent make, I'm not saying it isn't, but personally I wouldn't take that B Complex, and I always look for brands that contain as few fillers/added ingredients as possible.
Ferritin....60...(13-150...age 17-60. ) ! Don’t get this I’m 68
Magnesium...0.89. (0.7-1,0)
These are all I have done at the docs...
I HvE been recently taking IGENNUS super B complex and was on the cusp of moving to the Biocare one...having spent AGES researching it..researching is a bit of a posh word for checking out many brands...looking for the ones with folate not folic acid....ones. not too high nor low....doing my very best with my stubbornly unscientific mind.
If you are taking vitamin B complex, or any supplements containing biotin, remember to stop these 3-5 days before any blood tests, as biotin can falsely affect test results
Your ferritin is a bit low, but if you like liver just try to eat it once a week, that should help.
As you have Hashimoto's are you strictly gluten free? If not you might be surprised at the benefit
Poor gut function can lead leaky gut (literally holes in gut wall) this can cause food intolerances. Most common by far is gluten
According to Izabella Wentz the Thyroid Pharmacist approx 5% with Hashimoto's are coeliac, but over 80% find gluten free diet helps significantly. Either due to direct gluten intolerance (no test available) or due to leaky gut and gluten causing molecular mimicry (see Amy Myers link)
But don't be surprised that GP or endo never mention gut, gluten or low vitamins. Hashimoto's is very poorly understood
Changing to a strictly gluten free diet may help reduce symptoms, help gut heal and slowly lower TPO antibodies
Actually, I was on the cusp of changing from the Igennus brand to the Biocare Methyl b complex as they are capsules, not tablets...very appealing...but the folate levels are half the Igennus brand....
But then..I only take one a day because of the multi vit I take as well...but this is where it gets so complicated I want to scream ! Some have said they don’t like the one a day multi vit and mineral...and they may be justified...as I know almost nothing about it I’m not qualified to say...and then you have to make s decision...no...many decisions !
Your Vit D is a bit short of the level recommended by the Vit D Counci of 100-150nmol/L. I don't know what Vit D supplement you are taking but as you have Hashi's then an oral spray is best for absorption, eg BetterYou, and if you are taking less than 3000iu daily at the moment then I would get that dose spray and use it throughout the winter months. They also do a combined D3/K2-MK7 if that's preferable for you.
We all need to find our own individual maintenance dose. I take 2000iu all year round to keep it at the top of the recommended level. I have just retested Vit D and it has fallen so I am increasing to 4000iu 4 days a week and 2000iu 3 days a week (I have 2000iu dose supplement).
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B12 is excellent and folate is also very good. To maintain these I would get a good quality B Complex and you certainly don't need any more than 400mcg methylfolate in it, you could get away with less. If you were happy with the Igennus then there's no need to change it.
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Ferritin....60...(13-150...age 17-60. ) ! Don’t get this I’m 68
Well, I am 69 and that is the range Blue Horizon and Medichecks (I believe) use. It's the one we see frequently on here for females so I don't understand why that age range is there. Maybe ask your GP what it should be for over 60s.
Ferritin needs to be at least 70 for thyroid hormone to work, all you need to do is eat liver regularly to raise it, once every week or two should do it, you don't really need your level to go above 100. Also you can include other iron rich foods in your diet apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/in...
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Your magnesium is a bit on the low side considering you are supplementing. What are you using and what dose?
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Other than that, general supplements that are good for us hypos are
Vit C - at least 2000mg daily in divided doses
Co enzyme Q10 - I use the Ubiquinol version as the Ubiquinone type has to be converted by the body to Ubiquinol.
For a fish oil I use Kril Oil as that was recommended to me and I've stayed with it.
And Selenium which not only helps reduce antibodies, it also aids conversion of T4 to T3.
A good mineral complex (mineral only) is worth thinking about. I use this one biocare.co.uk/mineral-complex It's the only decent one I could find which doesn't contain iron, calcium and iodine, so I do put up with the fillers in this case as they are a lot less than many brands. Some people would suggest testing zinc/copper before using it. My zinc was tested low about 18 months ago but I haven't got around to testing copper but the amount included is only 20% of the NRV (Nutritional Reference Value - which is the same as RDA - Recommended Daily Allowance - but the EU insists it's now called NRV!). It includes 100mcg selenium L-Selenomethionine and if you want to top that up to the recommended 200mcg then this is the one I use cytoplan.co.uk/selenium which is food state selenium yeast.
I’m attempting to reply to your last , helpful post, point by point.
Re Vit D...I’ve been taking Jarrows 1000 is just once a day.
I was surprised by your remark on my teat result...as I though it looked very good going by the ref range..it looks optimal .
What do you think ? I’ve looked at the product you suggest....I would probably go for this if really necessary..bit it’s strange, isn’t it ? The pat even Dr P didn’t mention to me about the K2 ..though I don’t doubt you’re right ...
I get so overloaded with too much in my head,..so would you kindly answe this point for me and then I’ll move on to another point.
By the way, Im very grateful you’re willing to dialogue with me in depth..it is extremely helpful to have your aid here,,as I find all this too difficult to cope with alone...the sense of stress and overload is never far away..I wish it would not have to be so public !
I'm assuming that the unit of measurement for your Vit D test is nmol/L so your result was 82.9nmol/L. It isn't bad but as I said it doesn't reach the level recommended by the Vit D Council of 100-150nmol/L.
According to most standards, including the Vitamin D Council, Endocrine Society and Institute of Medicine, you are getting enough vitamin D!
My level is between 50-60 ng/ml (125-150nmol/L)
You’re getting the right amount of vitamin D by the standards set by the Vitamin D Council and Endocrine Society. The Institute of Medicine, however, doesn’t feel there is enough evidence to say that having a level higher than 50 ng/ml is of any benefit.
I'm not Hashi's but everything I read, on here and elsewhere, tells me that Hashi's affects the gut and absorption. So to ensure best absorption, supplementing by sublingual or oral spray to bypass the stomach, gives better absorption than other forms.
I believe Jarrows 1000iu D3 is a softgel and if that has improved your level then that's fine and you might want to stay on it.
I don't know why Dr P doesn't mention D3's cofactors. These are what the Vit D Council recommends vitamindcouncil.org/about-v...
D3 aids absorption of calcium from food and K2-MK7 directs the calcium to bones and teeth where it is needed and away from arteries and soft tissues where it can be deposited and cause problems.
D3 and K2 are fat soluble so should be taken with the fattiest meal of the day, D3 four hours away from thyroid meds.
Magnesium helps D3 to work and comes in different forms, check to see which would suit you best and as it's calming it's best taken in the evening, four hours away from thyroid meds
Thanks for this...still feel confused as to whether my result is good or not !
However..I take all your points...will have to change from taking Vit D at breakfast to dinner then ..as at breakfast is only two hours from thyroid med.
I split my magnesium three ways..at breakfast and dinner and bedtime.
Pharmacy nord biomagnesium in morning,..200..
Magnesium citrate 100 at dinner and
Thorne citramate 135 at night,
I guess I’d better switch to the Betteryou brand with the K2...perhaps only two sprays a day would be enough..I’ll think about that...and take at dinner with the magnesium...and it looks as if one should really have the vit a ...so could get the Biocare spray..don’t know how long that lasts..it doesn’t say.
Thanks for this...still feel confused as to whether my result is good or not !
It's not bad but it doesn't reach the level recommended by the Vit D Council and if you check the chart I linked to you will see what diseases are likely to be prevented at the higher levels. I keep mine at 150nmol/L.
Make sure you take magnesium, as well as Vit D, 4 hours away from thyroid meds.
1.......do you think I should take the Biocare mineral complex with breakfast..two hours from thyroid...or with evening meal?
2......And does it matter when you use a vit A spray ?
I loooked at the Vit D council recommendations with the helpful list of co factors..I’ve not really looked at these before..so trying to cover the bases..
3......The Q10 is the final thing..of all I can cope with I think..
It’s a mine field of choice..can you advise me o this too ..what do you think of Doctors best high absorb CoQ10 ..?
Cost is an issue here...I have to keep it down !
I am very grateful to you for looking over all this..THANKYOU.
1. It's generally said to take vitamins in the morning and minerals in the evening so they don't compete. I take my mineral complex in the evening.
2. I don't take a separate Vit A, it's in a combination D3/K2 supplement I take. It's a fat soluble vitamin so should be taken with dietary fat.
3. As I mentioned further up Co enzyme Q10 comes in 2 forms, Ubiquinone and Ubiquinol and Ubiquinone needs to be converted by our body to Ubiquinol. I have read that as we get older we can't convert the Ubiquinone to Ubiquinol as efficiently so for us seniors the Ubiquinol type is best to take although it is more expensive, other reading suggests there's no need to go for Ubiquinol and Ubiquinone is fine, so that something you have to decide for yourself. I know nothing of the Doctor's Best brand Q10 you mention so can't really pass comment. When I'm choosing a brand, I look for the least added ingredients as possible.
No, I have never suggested taking B Complex in the evening. B vitamins can be stimulating and can disturb sleep for some people, so I always suggest B vits should be taken in the morning, no later than lunchtime.
I mentioned that it's said to take vitamins in the morning and minerals in the evening, so it would make sense to take the mineral complex in the evening.
The D3/K2 combination supplement I use is D3 Complete by Allergy Research/Nutricology. It's a USA brand and it seems to be out of stock at the moment with all the UK suppliers that I know of. When it is in stock, I compare prices and buy from the cheapest place, sometimes it's Amazon, sometimes it's BigVits. You can, of course, get it from iherb in the US but you risk paying VAT and a collection fee due to it being over £15 uk.iherb.com/pr/nutricology...
Thanks for this...sorry..I got muddled then...ok...so I hour I’m almost launched with new approach to my supps...
If you see a flaw in this plan please tell me !
6 .am Thyroid...half of the dose
7.am ...Adrenavive...half the dose
Breakfast
...Omega 3
Omega 7
Vit c
Magnesium...200 of one of them
11-12....Adrenavive the other half
B complex
Dinner
D3/k2
Vit A
Magnesium citrate
Multi mineral
Now...I’m stuck with taking Vit D in evening away from the thyroid...is that ok ? And the Vit A ...does that have to be at the same time as the Vit D? If not I could move the Vit A to the morning..
You could take the Vit A at any time really, but as it is fat soluble it needs to be taken with a meal containing fat.
Make sure the magnesium is at least 4 hours away from thyroid meds - not sure what time your breakfast is and you haven't said what time you take the second half of your thyroid meds.
Most magnesium supplements have a dose of around 350-450mg. I use a magnesium citrate powder and the dose is 350mg although I take a bit extra. I just take the one dose in the evening.
As iron affects absorption of supplements and other medication, it is recommended to take it 4 hours away from thyroid meds and 2 hours away from other supplements.
It definitely is a minefield, and I always suggest eating liver where ferritin needs improving, saves a lot of hassle over timing where iron supplements are concerned.
You were so very helpful to me a while ago...I have implemented your suggestions, and although I’ve no idea what is working and what isn’t !-
I’m trusting for that....
I’m happy with my new regime and have been able to put the issue of supps to bed, for a nice change.
Can you please advise me on something else..
My 17 year old granddaughter is living with us permanently , after a very difficult break up of her home.
She has a fairly thick neck ...is very prone to stress...though the extreme stress has let up considerably, I’m pleased to say.
I do my best to feeed us all well...and certainly she is eating better than ever before...
When she first cane, six months ago , I gave her a Well teen tablet everyday...she is on the end of a box, and I’m wondering whether to continue or do something else.
She is not showing huge thyroid problems, so I’m leaving all that alone at the moment. But I feel there is a potential problem sitting there..it runs right through the family, and she easily shows adrenal stress.
My on health care is expensive, and truly I can’t afford much . I’m wondering whether it would be more sensible to move her onto Igennus b complex...or something else , or keep her on the Cits optics Wellteen...or give her nothing...but I feel I should.
Have you any thoughts on this...I’d be so grateful.
I've just looked at the formula for Wellteen Her and the same applies when commenting on any multivitamin/mineral. There is not enough of anything to help, the ingredients compete with each other and they're just not worth bothering with. That particular supplement contains iron so that will affect the absorption of anything else. It also contains 150mcg iodine and if you read the forum you will have seen many, many posts saying that iodine should be tested before supplementing. Iodine is anti-thyroid, it used to be used to treat hypERthyroidism, so it's possible it can damage a healthy thyroid gland.
There's 400mcg folic acid, that amount is usually recommended when a folate level is low and we need to raise it. It's an awful lot of her folate level is not low. High folate level is fine if B12 level is good, but you don't know that either.
Best advice is stay away from multi formulas. If you think any supplement is necessary then test the obvious ones
Vit D - we can't make any in the winter and general advice from the government is for everyone to supplement. But it needs testing to know how much to use.
If you think she may be low in iron through not enough in her diet, either get ferritin or an iron panel tested. If ferritin is low, add liver to her diet on some way, it doesn't have to be a meal of liver, it can be hidden in casseroles, curries, bolognese, any meat dishes, eat liver pate.
Why not wait until Medichecks has a Thyroid Thursday offer on their Thyroid Check Ultravit which will do a full thyroid panel plus the important vitamins and minerals and will be discounted to £79. If it's not on offer this week it won't be long before it comes around again.
If you want to hide liver, you can try mincing it but it's rather messy mincing raw liver. You could chop very small, or cook and mince the cooked liver and pop into any meat dishes at the last minute, it goes leathery if overcooked.
I would test Vit D before supplementing so you know what dose to buy. If you don't do the Medichecks Ultravit then for £28 there is a fingerprick blood spot test vitamindtest.org.uk/index.html
Or the same test purchased through BetterYou and they send you a complimentary oral spray at the correct strength for your level betteryou.com/vitamin-d-tes...
Personally I wouldn't take a B Complex without knowing my B12 and folate level.
I can assure you that you can trust the people on this site 18 months ago I felt extremely ill and now I feel fantastic because I listened and acted from the information on here.
When I was unwell I took lots of medicines and supplements and gradually weaned off as deficiencies were corrected and health improved. I was fed up of swallowing tablets and capsules. I now only take vitD 5,000iu per week most of the year and 10,000iu per week during the winter. Occasionally I take some vit C 1,000mg.
I like your reply Clutter...it’s so beautifully simple,..!
Maybe I should go for the simple approach...I spend so much money in an effort to do the right thing,,,.and I’m not sure where it gets me...thanks anyway...will consider this approach..
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