Knees (again...)

[Alpha-Golf]

I started running only 8 months ago, I am 52. I started as I have always seen people of all shapes, sizes and ages running but I have not been able to. My brother in law even managed it and he is rather lazy and unfit. So I thought; I have a body, I'm maybe a stone overweight but not bad, so I'm going to do a 5k run. Also I wanted to get fitter for a big car rally in January.

Turns out I really enjoy running!

I run every other day, in the morning and can now manage 5k non stop albeit slowly, but faster with some walking breaks.

However, I have never had great knees, I broke my ACL many years ago and I have 2 plates and 12 pins in my left ankle and leg.

The last few weeks I have really suffered with knee pain. Once I get warmed up I am better, and I take almost as long warming up and cooling down as the running. The pain comes mostly in the evening and worst at night. It wakes me up and is really quite intense. I am beginning to think I will have to give up my latest hobby.

I appreciate I need to see a proffesional, but I'm mostly intrigued as to why they hurt so much at night.

Any ideas welcome!

Keep up your running, it has helped my physically and mentally (apart from my knees!)

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate]

Oh dear...! Which week are you on in the programme currently? That might help us to pin point what is going on with you

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Oldfloss]

I've not been following the programme from the beginning to be honest, I had been walking most mornings 2-3 miles for a number of years, after I broke my leg, then tried running earlier in the year. I learnt a lot from you tube about warm ups and pacing and being careful, and maybe 3 weeks ago started using the C25K app. I have matched myself into around week 7 run 3, but I tend to listen to my body, sometimes I run longer, sometimes I take a few 20 second breaks.

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to Alpha-Golf]

Maybe then... if you feel absolutely confident, that you are not pushing too hard.. you need to up the exercises on some of your rest days... especially for the knees. As the runs get longer, our running body needs some help...

The beauty of the C25K programme is in its structured building up approach. Each run building on the one before... and this hopefully reduces any injury or adverse effects on our body.

There are loads of ideas on our Strength and Flex Frum... all researched and based on runners and experiences.

A few re posted here too last week!

healthunlocked.com/strength....

Do keep us posted and maybe finish the programme here with us.

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Oldfloss]

Thank you for your reply, it isd really appreciated. I don't want to give up, I'm not that type, but the pain has been quite disturbing. I am booked to see a physio next week.

I am pretty confident I am not overdoing it, although being a bloke, sometimes I want to see how fast I can do something.... but 90% of the time I am very careful. I heard a quote a few months ago - to run like it feels as if you are not running which made sense to me. I have goo shoes, am very aware of feet and body position.

Admittedly I don't do enough specific exercise on non-run days (I find it boring!)

Thank you for the links, I will have a look at them now

[Oldfloss Administrator Graduate in reply to Alpha-Golf]

Your physio is of course the most important thing... they may give you supportive exercises... we are no experts... hopefully once you have a starting point you will know how best to proceed.

I think where a structured plan wins out is by keeping us in check and many of us, not just our menfolk are guilty sometimes of over- reaching and trying a bit too hard!

The rest day exercise, it really does give so many benefits... especially as the run distances increase and our stamin and core strength becomes so necessary...and there is loads on the S and F forum to choose from.... including one that is covered by the benefits of simple household daily chores.

healthunlocked.com/strength...

[nowster Graduate in reply to Alpha-Golf]

Good that you have the physio appointment.

Explain your history to the physio and what you want to achieve.

Be prepared to be told off for overdoing things and listen to any advice given.

It's normal to have some knee joint discomfort in the first few weeks of starting running, but you need to give yourself time off between runs to allow the muscles and joints to recover and strengthen.

Walking does not cause the same strain on the legs as running does, especially in the calves, hamstrings and knee joints. Walking is not the same as running. Even if you regularly hike 20 miles in a weekend it won't prepare you for running.

I've no experience of ACL injuries, so I'll defer that to your physio.

And finally, check that you're not over-striding in your runs. If your feet are landing heel-first with a straight leg, that will definitely jar the knee joints. Shorter strides, a flatter landing with a little bend in the knee will help. Look at the Japanese Slow Running video in the FAQ.

[Alpha-Golf in reply to nowster]

Thank you for your reply and advice

[John_W Graduate in reply to Alpha-Golf]

Can you clarify how you built up to running for 5k, i.e., over what time scale, what the progression looked like etc.

What was your running history before that?

What kind of pace/speed are you doing your 5k at?

When you include walking breaks and then going quicker than a normal continuous 5k, how much faster on the run bits are you going?

[Alpha-Golf in reply to John_W]

I started running around end of May, never run before, hated the idea of it....

Current pace is around 11.30/mile constant steady running, fastest is 10.33 run-walk

I'm very careful of warm up and cool down, including doing an extra 4-5 min walk at the end of the run before stretching.

I did week 7 run 3 today and it felt like it was very easy, hardly out of breath which really surprised me

[John_W Graduate in reply to Alpha-Golf]

ok ... thx.... But ...

"Can you clarify how you built up to running to 5k, i.e., over what time scale, what the progression looked like etc."

So what did you do in May when you started? What did the progression look like?

[Alpha-Golf in reply to John_W]

Sorry, yes I see what you mean. So as I mentioned, I have always been very careful about warm up and cool down. Before May I was walking most mornings 2-3 miles, and very briskly, literally as fast as I could walk. Then I started moving slightly faster, a slow run on some gentle downhills (mostly as I was late for work) and found I enjoyed it. Then started a few minutes walking, then run to the next telegraph pole, walk one or two, run one, and very gradually extended the run times. My problem was always controlling my breathing and cab be when I push it.

[Yesletsgo Administrator]

Maybe this is stating the obvious but maybe take a painkiller before bedtime? If your knees are hurting it's not going to help your sleep, and sleep is when we repair ourselves.

It never occurred to me that you could take painkillers for anything other than headaches or stomach cramps until I started C25K. I developed really bad knee pains but couldn't get a doctors appointment. In desperation I asked my sister, a very experienced hospice nurse's advice. (what she doesn't know about relieving pain probably isn't worth knowing). She said to take 2 ibuprofen before bed and the paid was gone next day. I don't tolerate ibuprofen very well so now will take paracetamol if needed.

I was always worried that painkillers might mask the underlying cause and allow me to overdo stuff but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. I recently had ITB issues (the big tendon thing from hip to knee) and the doctor prescribed ibuprofen gel at night. I'd been suffering for 4 months and within days it was almost gone (I did exercises as well).

Obviously I'm not a doctor and haven't had your ACL issues but while you're waiting to see the doctor/physio some painkillers might make you more comfortable.

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Yesletsgo]

To be honest I never even thought about taking pain killers! I am much like you and generally avoid meds if I can help it, as I like to feel what my body is telling me, but I certainly am not a fan of what it has been telling me some nights....

Thank you for your advice!

[Yesletsgo Administrator in reply to Alpha-Golf]

I like to feel what my body is telling me too, but it sometimes doesn't realise I've heard it!!

[Carners1 Graduate]

I started just before my 51st Birthday so similar to you. I'm no expert, but sounds like you've maybe gone a bit quick out of the traps. When you run you have approx 10x your bodyweight going through your knees. By sticking to the programme and building up slowly, you better your chances of not getting injured. I had a bit of knee and hip pain when I started, so I think it's normal to have some discomfort.What really helped for me was getting the right trainers. Have you had a gait analysis?? Honestly, it could be as simple as the wrong shoes for you.

Good luck getting it sorted!!

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Carners1]

Thank you, and yes I'm beginning to think I may be overdoing it. I have £100 Brooks shoes, but I'd certainly like a gait analysis.

[Olliebear125]

Hi Alpha, I like you have had problems with knees for many years. one has been replaced and have been told many times the other needs the same...I played football until I was 60 so put it down to that...

I used to have great pain at night ,was on very high pain relief ...

An ex football mate of mine recommended Collogen Plus ...

It's a powder drink you take every day...

It has worked wonders for me reducing pai by 80-90 %...

It took about 6 weeks to kick in and I was a bit sceptical but it started to work and I've taken it fir years..

I'm not involved In the company so this isn't an avert..it was one of many hundreds of weird things I tried for the knee pain..including snail elixir 🤦‍♂️.

I'm about to complete week 7 of CT5K 🤞.

May be worth a try..Good luck...👍

.

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Olliebear125]

Snail elixir...... fair play to you!

Thank you for the advice, I will look out for the Collagen Plus!

[Newrunnerover50]

yeah can relate, I've loved being a (pretty slow) runner for the last few years but had to stop recently due to knee issues. I'd pretty much always keep to grass and playing fields to try and reduce the impact a bit, but something went crook, knees swelled up, and I don't want to push it! Hoping to start again soon after visiting a podiatrist to get new orthotics (I've got fallen arches from years ago).

I also dug out a copy of Sarah Key's book Body in Motion, and have started on a couple of the gentle knee exercises in that. She explains the anatomy well for lay pople imo.

Maybe different for you due to injury issues -- anyway I hope you get your knees sorted, best wishes!!

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Newrunnerover50]

Thank you, I'll look out for the book, and I hope you get back into it soon

[Newrunnerover50]

whoops Sarah Key's Body in Action I should say. Anyway cheers!

[nba1973]

Hi, I am nearly 50, overweight and have arthritic knees. I also tore my meniscus a few years back and experience the same problems. If I have achy knees I tend to take an ibuprofen before bed which helps. I also use a Tumeric massage oil from a company called pure extracts which helps too. Don't give up maybe leave a couple of days in-between each run. I now only run 3 days a week and do cardio in between. Good luck!

[Alpha-Golf in reply to nba1973]

Thank you, good advice

[Beachcomber66 Graduate]

Physio is definitely the way to go. After I had runner’s knee, and repeat discomfort in one knee post run, my physio suggested I try a simple fix. I now put a hot water bottle on my knees for 15 minutes before I leave home to start my runs, and I gently massage both knee caps. WD40 on a rusty hinge she called it (I am 71 …). She said that it stimulates the synovial fluid. It works for me.

[Alpha-Golf in reply to Beachcomber66]

I like that idea, thank you!