Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Four Year Transdermal Estradiol Update

Well, it's been four years since I started applying transdermal estradiol gel (tE2) as my mono-therapy and I'm quite happy with the results. My SOLE side effect is some degree of gynecomastia which is a 'small price to pay to keep the PC at bay'!

Just a brief history, and yet another 'boob' pic (taken last week by Natalie) for some of you who are new to this forum.

Diagnosed with PCa in 2004 at age 61.

Gleason 9.

Failed robotic RP performed at UCI.

About 10 years ago an MRI identified a three cm mass in my left kidney and none of the doctors in Dallas wanted to do a biopsy since they were afraid that if it was malignant, it would spread. A nephrectomy was performed at Baylor and five days later the path report came back as just a benign cyst. Go figure!!

Several sacral Lymph nodes were removed robotically in 2017 at UCI when my PSA climbed to 1.3. The 'third' worthless surgery!

Refused to subject myself to Lupron injections, so I started applying tE2 gel (based on Richard Wassersug's outstanding success and recommendation) in April of 2018 after everything else failed and my PSA continued to rise.

My highest PSA since August of 2018 was 0.19, and I haven't been to a doctor since August of 2017. Don't think that I will ever submit to another surgery, or be too inclined to even visit a doctor...no problem with my Thai dentist that I luv!

The tE2 gel is the ONLY thing that I am using for my PCa, and my diet consists of most everything (not necessarily the healthiest)...chicken, hamburgers, pasta, pizzas, bacon/eggs, veggies, salads, spicy Thai food, some fish, lots of fresh fruit, ice-cream, bakery (I love to bake), fruit juices, green tea (not a coffee drinker), etc. I never smoked and seldom drink any alcohol...perhaps a glass of wine at a special occasion. Since I made it this far, I don't deprive myself of things that I like. However, I do exercise every day. If I expire tonight, no biggie since it's been a pretty good ride!

I strongly encourage those of you who are dealing with the nasty side effects of ADT injections to try some tE2 gel.

Made it to 79 last month and have no complaints...thanks to the 'Big Guy' above!

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Looking great Ron!!!!! Have a lovely day. 🌻Jackie

Thank you Jackie for the kind message! It appears that you are taking good care of Elgie.

Sending healthy and warm wishes from across the planet.

Ron🙏

Hi Jackie 🙂! Sending 💕.

Hello Sisira!!! Always smiling seeing your messages. Stay well dear friend. Sending♥️.🙂🌻

Just plain looking good man. Looking marvelous. All that fit muscularity stands out and mixes together in the mind's eye. Don't see any boobs. Not really even when I try hard to see them.Anyway keep it up. Good news and Happy belated birthday!

Thank you kindly Bro for the encouraging reply...you made my night (00:40 here in Thailand)!

I read all of your posts/replies and I'm always impressed with your vast knowledge of this shit*y disease. Wishing you and your brother the best in this battle. Hope your PSA continues to fall below 1.8.

Thank you for the belated B'day wish!

Ron

Always healthy and good wishes back Ron🙂

Thanks again Jackie!

Congrats! Looking very ripped. You certainly don't have the body of the average 79-year-old. More of us should get PCa. Maybe we wouldn't be such a fat society.

In 2019 did 5 months of estrogen ADT. My tT stayed undetectable <10). PSA was <0.01.

If someone stays on conventional ADT and has problems with cardiac risk, bone density, or hot flashes try adding 0.05-0.2 mg/day of estrogen. That's what I do now that I am on BAT. I am using Lupron and I've never had a hot flash.

Thank you Bro for the kind and informative reply!

Wishing you the very best,

You are always and shall remain a pioneer in this forum.Whether high in the sky or on the ground you seats looked ahead and never feared. Keep flying high with your spirit and commitment going forward.You look great and content.Thank you for your mono trial

Thank you Bro for your kind and motivating reply!

What have you had done/doing since your last post?

Congratulations and best wishes, love your attitude

Hugh

Thank you Hugh! My best to you also,

Ron

Wow looking good Ronron … we’re gonna have to have a mr America contest between you and Nal … maybe get boywonder in there too …… post pics and we could vote. 💪💪💪💪😁😁😁

Thanks Bro, but Nal would kick my ass!

Way to stay the course Ron, great numbers... those Thai women are good motivation! Wonder if eating aromatase-inhibiting foods would lessen the gynecomastia, or would they counter-act the protective effect by lowering estrogen conversion.

Thank you for your reply! I do eat all of those veggies.

Wow Ron, a great result, very encouraging results using a very different system.

The diet sounds good too, I eat what I like, I don't carry extra weight and excercise is good in any form, also for the brain.

Perhaps you had a glass of wine on your birthday, I hope so, congratulations and here's to the next one the big 80 !

Take care.

Phil

Thank you Phil for your thoughtful reply! And yes, I did have one glass of wine on my big day...looking forward to another next year, God willing?

May I be blunt.

You look fucking awesome!

Tits? What tits? (well ok a little gyno)

I have been taking note of your use of tE2 gel over the last year with interest.

I will see if my T and PSA have declined next week. If not Im in trouble.

I am thinking of a few weeks holiday in Thailand in June/July (Im Aussie). I have not discussed E gel with my doctors. If I cant get any sense out of them, I may do what you do on my Thailand holiday for an experiment.

May I message you if this situation arrises?

Thank you Bro for the facetious reply! I do hope you make it up here to visit me this summer. I have many Aussie friends here and would luv to meet you. I had gone down to Peter Mac a few years ago for a Ga-68 scan in May not thinking that it was winter down-under and froze my ass off! BTW, you look to be in great shape despite having to deal with this shit. I don't think that you need a doctor's consent to try the gel? You should be able to buy it down there.

Wishing you great success in this battle,

Ron

Not facetious bro.

The way you speak I thought you would embarrass my wife in the upstairs department. Certainly less gyno then most 50 year old men.

Eye surgery today. I will get back on the Pc train next week.

You are an inspiration. A role model that many should emulate. I would love to catch up if opportunity presents.

Thanks Bro! Hope the eye surgery goes well.

My best,

Ron

So happy your regimen is working for you.

In hindsight, we might have done things differently. Certainly would have gone to a prostate cancer oncologist as soon as the urologist said cancer. ….

Aside from that, my beloved is in great shape despite his diagnosis in 2009. We credit (most) of his treatments, and a deep, abiding faith in a higher power, so we’ll keep doing what we’re doing.

Wishing you continued success and good health.

Dear Cateydid,

Thank you so much for your reply. I'm sorry to hear about what Joe has been going through in this crazy battle. Hopefully something in the pipeline will give him some relief and keep him around for at least 30 more years. Sending my thoughts and prayers to both of you from across the planet.

Hugs,

Ron

Great run Ron. Keep it up. Love your diet. Regards to Natalie, no doubt a big part of your successful equation. Paul

Thanks Paul! Natalie loved your reply...she sends her best to you and yours.

Hey Ron……..this is your mirror image here. Had surgery also in 2004, also Gleason 9, also eat whatever the hell I want at this stage, also exercise daily., also refused Lupron injections.The only difference is my boobs are slightly larger than yours and I’m a little younger, although not by much (just turned 76 April 29). Still doing the DES, it’s been 6 years now. Wanted to try the Gel as we discussed a while back but my last PSA was undetectable so I decided to stay with it, also I wasn’t sure how much to of the gel to apply and how often. …you not only look good Ron you an inspiration to a lot of people on this board……….also I’m sure by your recent photos that it’s not only the gel that is working wonders for youJoe D

My first thought was utter amazement at your great healthy photo and your very simple yet apparently successful treatment plan. Please continue your posts to give encouragement to the rest of us on traditional plans.

Thank you Bro for the inspirational reply! Haven't seen any posts from you for a long time...how are you doing? If you would like to try some E2 gel, perhaps I can send you some.

Congrats Ron you are the poster boy for tE2 and carrying the banner with physical proof of success. I am still on the Estradiol patches with great success. The gel was just too difficult to get out of Thailand.

Lance

Thank you Lance for the cute reply! Happy to hear that the patches are doing the job. I can send you gel if you decide to go back to it. I'm thinking about starting a little business selling it. I send it to Richard Wassersug in Vancouver at a small fraction of the ninety some dollars that they are now charging in Canada. They also require a prescription there.

Cheers!

Hi LancerWould you be kind enough to update your profile and keep us updated on your experience with Estradoil. I think there is a lot of interest in this therapy on here.

TIA

Scout

Scout thanks for the heads up. i looked and I thought I had put a better profile on this site. Apparently not. so I updated it just now and hopefully that will answers some of the questions as to the estrogen treatment. Anything else i can help with let me know

Lance

Great keep us in the loop

Great story! Keep em coming.

Great post Ron. Truly inspiring. You look GREAT!!!

Thank you so much Joe for the kind reply! How are you doing? I haven't seen any posts from you for 11 months. Hope you are feeling better than you were last year?

Sending best wishes for you and yours,

Ron

Thanks for getting back to me Ron. I read what people post every day here, but I don't write much. I live in El Salvador and am in the public health system. I don't have many treatment options (just the standard protocal here), so much of what people discuss on our site has límited relevance for me. I can't go to a doctor here and suggest a specific treatment. I do intend to inquiere with my MO about your estrogel option, however. Your success is really amazing. I am actually doing quite well. My PSA has stabalized at . 19 for almost a year. I am a former athlete and, like you, I do exercise every day. I attribute my well being to this, primarily, and am toying with a holiday from ADT if my doctor approves it, although I read with care each time Magnus argues against this option.

Be well, my brother. You have chosen an amazing place to live your life.

Thanks Joe for another nice reply. You really should think about substituting your current ADT drug with the tE2 gel. Have you checked to see if it is available in El Salvador? If not, perhaps I can send you some and you don't even have to ask your MO. I can understand why you are considering an ADT holiday if you are experiencing any side effects from the nasty injections.

I wonder why your PSA is not lower than 19...are you on Lupron?

Are you just working in El Salvador, or is that your native country? I made a fuel stop at Ilopango International Airport when I sold and delivered my last plane to a guy in Panama shortly after I moved to Thailand...the last time I flew. I was fortunate to be able to give up flying voluntarily as opposed to losing my medical and watching someone fly my baby away!

My old airplane

Hey Ron. Its nice being in touch with you. I am going to try Estradiol, either patch or gel. Just want to run this by my doc. My youngest son is a med. student and he assures me you can get it here. My PSA, by the way, has been holding at point 19, not 19.It sounds like youve had an interesting life. I came to El Salvador about 45 years ago during the civil war and fell in love. My memoirs were recently published, in case you like to read ("For the Love of the Struggle" - - darajapress. com). I have travelled quite a bit in my life, including the Philippines, but have always dreamed of visiting Vietnam, Tailand and other locations in SE Asia. Have a great day.

Interesting Life CountryJoeI have a theory that Love gives one a leg up in fighting PCa.

What or who did you fall in love with.

Tell us a love story.

Thank you for your interest, Scout. I fell in love with the poor of El Salvador and their endless struggle for peace, justice, dignity and sustainable development. I invite you to read my book. Its a love story.

Hi Joe,

I was wondering about your PSA of 19; 0.19 sounds a lot better! I will order your book. Hope you make it to Thailand before I kick the bucket?

Cheers!

Thanks Ron. I will be anxious to get your comments on my book. In terms of "kicking the bucket", everything I know about you so far tells me that you are going to be around a long time 😊.

Great post & pic! Next time post some bakery pics.

Thank you Bro! I can send you some bakery pics if you PM me your email address.

Ron - thank you for sharing sir. You look fit and great. You definitely look better than majority of men with or without pc!

Keep doing what works for you! I really appreciate your post and find it very encouraging that you’ve kept fighting pc and found a routine that works for yourself. 👍🏼👊🏼💪🏼😁

Thank you Bro for a most pleasant reply! I just read your bio and I'm so sorry that you had to join this group of troopers at such a young age, or at any age for that matter! How are you doing since your last round of proton radiation and starting ADT?

If I can assist you in any way, please don't hesitate to ask.

My best,

Ron

Perhaps you have implied this with your history, but are castration resistant?

I’m asking because I am castration resistant and I’m on Zytiga/Prednisone with .1mg E2 patches twice a week. I had an orchiectomy from the beginning.

My MO loves what the E2 has done for me (as do I!), but my PSA is rising (0.90 right now).

Your story has inspired me and given my a backup plan!

Bro,

I'm not sure that I totally understand your question? I am of the belief that '(CRPC) is cancer that continues to grow even when the testosterone levels are at or below the castrate level'.

My recent T levels have been above castrate levels according to this: "Current data suggest that the new target for either surgical or chemical castration is a serum testosterone level of lower than 20 ng/dL." Historically, it was somewhere between 40 and 50...my last two T levels have been above 50. According to my last 3½ years of PSAs, my cancer appears to be taking a nap.

Castration resistance means you did ADT and inspite of it, PC came back (PSA went up).

So very glad to hear this. This is most definitely the path I'm going down if/when required due to my PSA rise.

Does anyone have a theory as to why this isn't FDA approved and SoC? A possible answer is corruption, of course, but I hate to be so cynical.

Bro,

Why would it be FDA approved and the SOC when it costs me less than $20/month, and I haven't been to a doctor since August of 2017 when I had the 'worthless' sacral LN surgery?

Just think about what I subjected myself to and the money that I spent flying down to Australia to have a Ga-68 scan, back to Thailand, then to UCI to have the surgery which simply lowered my PSA for a few months, and then back to my home in Thailand!

What a coincidence, I have the same cardboard cutout of a muscular body which I pose behind. Fools many people...

It's a little dog eared since I mailed away for it years ago from the ATLAS advertisements on the back cover of comics....................... That's when bullies used to kick sand* in my face......but that stopped since all I had to do was send them one of my cardboard "body" pictures.....

*P.S. Sand at the beach or rock salt in the winter.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Wednesday 05/04/2022 7:44 PM DST

Luv ya Bro...you're as crazy as I am!

Excellent Ron!

Thank you Alicat! How are you doing? Haven't seen any posts from you in quite awhile. Are you still using tE2 as your primary ADT therapy?

I hope none of you that I refer to as "Bro", find it impolite? Since I don't know the given names of many of my 'brothers in this battleground', it's common Chicago jargon to call friends "Bro"!

Hi Ron. Thanks for all the time you put in here helping people. I was recently diagnosed with advanced PCa and am scheduled to have my first Firmagon injection today. I am of course concerned about side effects and would love to change from Firmagon to Oestrogel. Is it advisable to begin using the Oestrogel during the 30 day period of the Firmagon?

Thank you jj for your kind reply! I just read your bio and I'm so sorry that you have recently become a member of this exclusive group.

Since the initial dose of Firmagon is usually given in two injections totaling 240 mg, I would probably wait a month for the next 'one' which is normally only 80 mg before I start using/taking anything else. One of the major problems with (GnRH) antagonists is that they decrease bone density due to the deficiency of estradiol (E2). E2 is aromatized from testosterone; therefore, chemical castration significantly decreases bone density. I don't think that will be a biggie during the first month?

What country do you reside in, and if you don't mind my asking, how old are you? Please keep me posted as to your progress, and other pertinent info. I'm here to assist you in any way possible.

My best,

Ron

Thanks Ron. I'm 74 and live in the United States....California. I haven't taken the first shot yet. I am scheduled in about an hour. My urologist didn't tell me what the dose would be. I think they give 120 on the first one but I'm not sure. I have read on here that people don't really have to take Firmagon every month, that it stays with you for at least 60 days. I'll see how the first one goes. If it's not too bad I suppose I'll do the second. I want to get off it asap though before it does a lot of damage. My PSA was over 100 last time I tested. I had read the DES worked fine and had very few side effects but that doctors wouldn't prescribe it due to insurance reasons. I looked online for DES but no luck. I found where to buy the Oestregel online, from Thailand, and I ordered a few tubes. I figured I would track the PSA etc while I took it to make sure it wasn't getting worse and go back to Firmagon if the estrodial wasn't working. I don't plan on doing anything other than hormonal therapy. I know they will try to get me to do a multitude of other things but I'm not going to do any of that. I'm with you on not going to the doctor unless I absolutely have to. In this case I did. I got so I couldn't pee at all. Anyway, thanks again! You are very helpful.

You are right Ron. The first dose is 240 (three normal doses). Wow. I hope that doesn't floor me for the month. My urologist talks like it's usually not that bad. I'll let you know how it goes.

jj, Hopefully those nasty tummy injections won't hurt you much more than they hurt your urologist!😂

Did you receive the gel yet, and how much did the order cost? Patrick 'pjoshea13' is using DES, but I haven't asked him where he is getting it? It was taken off the market in 1985 and replaced with Lupron due to a 30% increase in CV events. Since the gel doesn't pass through the liver as oral meds do, there is little chance of any CV problems.

Good luck with the jabs today!

Hi Ron. I just ordered the gel today. It was $24 plus $16 shipping. I ordered three tubes so it cost me about $30 each. I'll let you know if it arrives. The Firmagon injections didn't hurt at all. The sites aren't sore but it's only been two hours.

Cool! I hope they do the job.

I just got notice from DHL that my order has shipped. Be here May 11. So I guess that place in Thailand is legit. Thanks again for the tip on Oestrogel.

$16 for shipping is very cheap...I paid about $140 to ship 25 tubes a couple of years ago.

Hello, thank you for sharing your success with estradiol. I took starting taking estradiol a year ago, stopped Lupron after recovering from Covid & pneumonia. At 62 I ws diagnosed in 2019 with many mets, did chemo, radiation.

Back in August My PSA skyrocketed to 125 after Covid but started dropping while on estradiol at 2 MG daily, psa has dropped consistently but in December it was 7 and in March to 14. Not only did it go up but my scans show increased cancer activity. I have been increasing my estradiol.

My question to you is what level of estradiol are you taking? I’m taking 10 mg orally daily. Also did you PSA ever rise then go down while on estradiol?

Thank you so much for any information you can share.

Greetings folks,

I'm sorry to hear that the E2 doesn't appear to be doing much. I am applying 1.5 mg of E2 gel twice daily since my initial dosage of 1.5 mg wasn't giving me the results that I was looking for; however, my PSAs for the last three years have all been undetectable. That being said, I am now starting to lower my daily dosage to 1 mg twice daily and see what happens?

IMO, 10 mg oral doses may be a bit high since the maximum dosage of DES (the synthetic oral estrogen) was 5 mg. DES was taken off the market in 1985 due to an increase in CV events, and replaced with Lupron injections. Not having the chemistry background to find the exact concentration of E2 in DES, I would have to suggest messaging either 'pjoshea' (Patrick) or 'Nalakrats'. Patrick has found someone to compound DES for him and is using it. DES was a very effective PCa hormone that kept many men alive for years, but should be taken along with an anticoagulant.

The tE2 gel that I am using avoids the first pass hepatic metabolism unlike oral meds. Comparing doses of transdermal E2 to oral E2 is something that I also can't answer with any authority.

This probably didn't totally answer your questions, but it's a start.

My best,

Ron

It is great to see you doing so well. Thanks to you, I am using the same gel an my PSA, is down from 0.4 to 0.01, after 3 months. My oncologists were furious when told what I am doing. They said that I am only putting my PC to sleep with Estradiol gel and to stop doing it if I want to be their patient. I was applying one dose daily 1.5mg estradiol for 3 months. After this period, I use only half and will check how it goes next month.Vlad

Great Vlad! Are your oncologists going to cure you with their 'LHRH' drugs? You have already had surgery and 34 radiation treatments and your PSA was still 0.4. Screw them...they're just pissed that there is no money in you treating yourself. .75 mg of E2 gel may not be enough to keep your PSA down? I have been applying 1.5 mg of gel twice/daily; however, I have recently reduced my dosage to about 1 mg twice a day to see how that works. Keep up the good progress.

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