BAT, SAT & SARMs: New study below [... - Advanced Prostate...

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BAT, SAT & SARMs

pjoshea13 profile image
15 Replies

New study below [1]

By now, most will know that BAT = bipolar androgen therapy

New to me, SAT = supraphysiological androgen therapy

SARMS = selective androgen receptor modulators

***

Some will remember past discussions about the role of estrogen in PCa. My take on estrogen has always been that the estrogen:testosterone ratio [E2:T] is significant in PCa. This can be reduced to: T is biphasic - growth-permissive at low levels; regulates growth at high levels.

From the new paper: "AR signaling is dichotomous, inducing growth at lower activity levels, while suppressing growth at higher levels"

{Might men on active surveilance benefit from high-normal T?}

The authors wondered whether the regulatory aspects of AR could best be induced by a SARM - rather than testosterone, with its "poor drug-like properties as well as rapid and variable metabolism".

{Well, we know that drugs are always better than natural agents ... LOL}

from the Discussion section:

"AR signaling is critical for the growth and survival of most PCs throughout the entire course of the disease. However, successive treatments with drugs designed to inhibit AR signaling yield diminishing benefits and extensive cross-resistance (49). SAT may counter adaptive cellular mechanisms that contribute to a castration-resistant phenotype. Notably, the dynamic nature of bipolar T administration further exploits a requirement for adaptive responses to maintain optimal ratios of ligand and receptor that regulate cell survival and proliferation (14). Additionally, mechanisms that enhance AR function in low androgen environments, like AR amplification, may become liabilities when high concentrations of T activate the growth-suppressive functions of the AR. Unfortunately, the use of T as a therapeutic is accompanied by pharmacological limitations that preclude the optimal evaluation of AR agonism as a treatment strategy. For example, if cycling high and low AR agonism is an important facet of clinical benefit, it is challenging to rapidly adjust plasma androgen concentrations using the current methods of depot i.m. injections. Given these considerations, discovering a substitute for T with improved safety, delivery, and control would represent a significant advance in the use of continuous or bipolar AR agonist therapies in the clinic.

"In model systems, SARMs have been shown to be potent AR agonists, for example, restoring body and muscle mass of castrated rats (22). The pharmacokinetics of several SARMs have been extensively characterized (19, 22, 23, 50). In terms of AR agonist activity, SARM-2F and GTX-024 have superimposable transcriptional dose responses toward AR-driven reporters: saturating activity was achieved for both SARMs at 10–8 M (19). Similar dose-dependent transcriptional responses were observed in primary human skeletal muscle and prostate epithelial cells (22). While SARM abuse has been reported, and toxicities have been associated with adulterated or misrepresented products obtained via internet vendors (51), clinical studies using pure clinical-grade SARM compounds have demonstrated excellent safety profiles. For example, a phase II clinical study of GTX-024 (enobosarm) for cancer-induced muscle wasting did not report significant adverse events (33).

"Although the drug-like properties of SARMs are well supported by the literature, it was unknown whether SARMs, being partial agonists, would activate the AR potently enough to engage a growth-suppressive and differentiating transcriptional program in PC. In this study, we tested the hypothesis that nonsteroidal SARMs match the efficacy of steroidal AR agonists in suppressing the growth of castration-resistant PC. To this end, we evaluated SARMs in vitro and in vivo to establish their growth-suppressive activities in PC models. Like steroidal androgens, we found that SARMs induced the expression of luminal differentiation genes, blocked entry into the S phase, and repressed MYC and FOXM1 levels. Finally, by comparing transcriptomes, AR cistromes, and AR cofactor profiles, we demonstrated that SARMs recapitulated the global molecular effects of steroidal AR agonists.

"The most unexpected result from this study was the lack of meaningful differences between certain SARMs and steroidal agonists in PC cells. Previous studies have suggested that SARMs and steroidal androgens differentially recruit cofactors (21, 43). However, there does not appear to be a consistent set of cofactors responsible for the “androgenic” versus the “anabolic” effects. Part of this confusion may be due to the vast diversity of SARMs in both molecular scaffolds and the potency of their agonism. In our study, we found that the SARMs LGD-4033 and RAD140 were unable to suppress the growth of PC cells. Interestingly, GTX-024 and GTX-027 activated the AR sufficiently to suppress the growth of LNCaP and VCAP cells, but not 22PC-EP cells. These data suggest that the effect of a SARM depends on the cell-intrinsic context of AR signaling, like AR mutation or amplification status, as well as on the properties of the SARM itself.

"Currently, it is difficult to predict whether a particular SARM can activate the AR sufficiently to suppress the PC growth (45, 46). Given that certain SARMs behave as partial agonists in vitro and in benign tissues, and yet fully recapitulate AR activity in PC models, the switch from partial agonist to full agonist may reflect genomic and epigenomic alterations in prostate carcinomas, where cistrome reprogramming influences the development of castration resistance. These mechanisms should be further studied in the context of SARM sensitivity to predict likely responders.

"The effects of bipolar AR activation were not evaluated in this study. Preventing adaptation to a static, low or high androgen environment may be crucial, for long-term suppression of tumor growth. Understanding changes in gene expression, physiology, and the epigenetics of cells exposed to a changing androgen environment may help improve therapy by identifying feedback mechanisms that can be further exploited. Additionally, the current 28-day treatment cycle of BAT may not be the most effective. Given the control afforded by the drug-like properties of SARMs, shorter or longer treatment intervals could be evaluated to optimize the bipolar AR for the greatest effect.

"Future studies into the use of nonsteroidal agonists to suppress the growth of PC should explore strategies that augment the activation of the AR. One avenue could be to evaluate nonsteroidal, full AR agonists. Safety concerns notwithstanding, full agonists may be more effective replacements for steroidal agonists by potently inducing AR signaling, regardless of the cellular context, and so could induce the same systemic effects as those seen with T. Other possibilities include cotherapeutic approaches to directly activate the N-terminal domain of the AR or stabilize AR levels (52–54).

"Our findings strongly support further exploration of SARMs for the treatment of CRPC. The nonsteroidal compounds SARM-2F, T8039, GTX-024, and Cpd26 potently induced AR activity, repressed MYC signaling, and suppressed the growth of PC cells. SARMs compared favorably to steroidal androgens by regulating a largely overlapping set of genes and recruiting the same set of AR cofactors to chromatin. Since SARMs have already been tested in a variety of clinical settings for other health conditions, the path to implementing them in the clinic as a CRPC therapy could be accelerated. Given their convenient mode of delivery, favorable safety profile, and potential to improve general health, SARMs present an attractive therapeutic option."

-Patrick

Full text: jci.org/articles/view/146777

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15 Replies
cesces profile image
cesces

So as I read it, the study discovered nothing?

Though we all learn about some new potential agents deserving of study.

noahware profile image
noahware

Wow, seems to open a new world of possibilities... but figuring out what SARMa might work well, and for whom, could take decades.

Regarding this: "... it is challenging to rapidly adjust plasma androgen concentrations using the current methods of depot i.m. injections..."

Could high-dose patches, gels or creams give a more rapid rise in T?

pjoshea13 profile image
pjoshea13 in reply to noahware

Denmeade doesn't use transdermal because he wants supraphysiological levels.

I was a long-time daily user of the 4mg AndroDerm patch, which raised my T to over 1,000 ng/dL. (Some of which I was making myself.) I don't know how T throughout the 24 hours mimicked my natural cycle **. Would two patches have got me anywhere near Denmeade's 2,000 ng/dL target? Perhaps 12 hours apart?

From a study perspective, compliance is less of a concern when men have to turn up every 28 days for their T cypionate shot. & T-cyp is cheap; AndroDerm is NOT. Self-administration is easy (for n=1 studies.)

I have no idea as to metabolites, but at least I had conversion to estradiol under control, via Arimidex.

I get a kick out of any study that suggests that an androgen receptor [AR] agonist might have a future role in PCa. AR has taken such a beating these 75+ years & we have no cure & only lackluster disease management to show for it.

** As I recall, T is highest at 7 am (so is cortisol) and lowest before bed (11 pm?).

-Patrick

noahware profile image
noahware in reply to pjoshea13

I believe Dr. Bob Liebowitz (compassionateoncology.org) used transdermal T to get men to levels of 2-3000. Yes, more expensive for sure. You are surely right about standardizing dose and compliance, for studies, with injections rather than gels.

The PATCH trial noted there was quite a variation in men's E2 levels when supposedly applying the same number of patches (in the same places, at same frequency, etc.) Having far larger numbers of men in the study helps even that out, I imagine.

in reply to noahware

I use 150 mg - 200 mg of Androgel per day. My T gets to 1800-2000. There might have been an interaction with a SARM though and I'm figuring it out now. I am waiting for my first mass spectrometry T test results to see how high my T actually is (I also dropped the SARMs for a few weeks).

in reply to noahware

I use 150 mg of Cernos (same as Androgel). I just had my T measured with a mass spectrometry test. tT = 1598 mg/dl.

If the fall time of Androgel isn't fast enough you could take Casodex for a week to reduce the effective amount by approximately 80%. I take 100 mg of Caso for 1 day and then 50 mg for 6 days. You get close to a pulse.

One 400 mg cyp shot vs. 3 days Androgel 200 mg followed by 150 mg/day for 26 days:

Androgel vs. Cypionate
MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach

I have been curious if there is an alternative pathway for down stream activation of anabolic activities without adverse PC effects via AR activation. Looks like so far the answer is no for the SARMs studied. You can’t stay at castrate T via ADT and still stimulate muscle building, etc. (exercise aside). And I learned a bee word from the article, “cistrome” but I don’t know how to use it in a coherent sentence!

Speaking of BAT (per paragraph below), I have now completed two cycles of SPT for 4-6 weeks followed by 4 weeks off with no ADT throughout. My PSA continues to slowly decline. Now at 0.075. Repeat PSMA scan last week with Pylarify showed my two RT PLNs continue to shrink and no new lesions 20 months post PLN RT. 😆👍🏼👍🏼

in reply to MateoBeach

Cistrome... I would have guessed it was the plural of cistern.

The amounts that they were using are crazy high. About 40 times what you need for muscle building. I tested GTX-024 (ostarine or enobosarm) up to 35 mg/day (about 10x as much as I would want to take for muscle building) and there was no effect on my PSA. I've also tested Rad-140. No effect. I use Rad-140 during most every low cycle. Doesn't seem to have any effect on my PSA.

Rad-140 has a 10:1 anabolic/androgenic ratio and ostarine is 3:1. Hence I prefer Rad. I showed my PSA and muscle gain results to my MO and she's all for continuing. The side effect of SARMs is the reduction of HDLs (I see 50% from 3 weeks of 10 mg/day, no changes in any other blood test). My MO said not to worry about the HDL decrease since my other lipids are fine and the HDL reduction is only temporary (and we haven't fully proven whether HDL isn't simply a marker - look at how Niacin panned out).

I did a quick search and this looks like a mouse study using 100 mg/kg 3x/week. I weigh about 100 kg. So just a brute translation would be 30,000 mg/week (assuming that I was a huge mouse). In practice, 3 mg a day should be sufficient for some muscle gain. I sometimes go to 10 mg a day.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to

Thanks for the details on the SARMS. So far not using them in my off cycles lasting just one month. Figure I can cruise that without much muscle loss before getting back on SPT. Reading my post above from a year ago when no new PSMA avid nodes were seen. Now after a year on cyclic mBAT my PSMA scan this month showed two more LNs newly visible. Progression from the testosterone? I’m thinking not because my PSA has stayed stable around 0.1.

Rather the testosterone increases PSMA expression when HSPC. The doc in Australia to do my Lu-PSMA treatments in May said he wants me on high T for the month before treatments for this reason. I am thinking that those nodes were already there but not seen on prior scans. And now T has increased PSMA expression and made them visible. And treatable.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach

Oh here is the quote referred to:

"The effects of bipolar AR activation were not evaluated in this study. Preventing adaptation to a static, low or high androgen environment may be crucial, for long-term suppression of tumor growth. Understanding changes in gene expression, physiology, and the epigenetics of cells exposed to a changing androgen environment may help improve therapy by identifying feedback mechanisms that can be further exploited. Additionally, the current 28-day treatment cycle of BAT may not be the most effective. Given the control afforded by the drug-like properties of SARMs, shorter or longer treatment intervals could be evaluated to optimize the bipolar AR for the greatest effect.

One of the biggest advantages IMO to some SARMs (e.g. Rad-140) is that they are engineered to be more anabolic than androgenic. This should be good for muscle/bone loss mitigation on the low T phase.

Another major advantage is that the half-life of a SARM is typically on the order of 8 hours to a day. Cypionate has a half-life of a week. Takes over a month to clear. A SARM clears in days. T-propionate is similar to cyp but has a shorter ester and has a 3-day half-life. That's better than cyp but not great. Some guys say prop hurts when injected. I warm up the prop before injecting, go slow with a 25 gauge, rub the site afterward. I haven't ever had pain (I can feel where it is injected but I can't describe it as painful).

Anyway, now I use Androgel. 150-200 mg /day gets my T high (I think - I'm confirming with a mass spectrometry test). Half-life is a day. If it doesn't get there I'm going to have to look at other options. Perhaps T-prop and Androgel combined. I did that for about a week and my T was >7500. I was also using nandrolone (NPP form) and that confuses the standard T test but even if 100% of NPP registered as T then my T shouldn't have been more than about 5000.

I question the conclusion that Ostarine (GTX-024) activates the ARs. Or at least that doing so is practical. It looks like they used very high doses of the SARMs. Government trials only used up to about 3 mg/day. My HDLs dropped about 50% when I used 10 mg/day. I don't know what 75 mg/day would do (assuming 100% bioavailability and a 1-day half-life you'd need 75 mg/day to get to the concentrations seen with SPT.

Anyway, I tested it out on my ADT phase. I started with 3 mg a day. No effects on PSA. So increased, and tested, and increased, and tested, and.... stopped at 35 mg/day and I temporarily decided to use no more than 5 mg/day. I did that with Rad-140 too. Same results. It's always possible that my PSA was zero and was going to stay there no matter what I did. However, it went to 0.2 on the next high T cycle.

I prefer Rad-140 since it supposedly has a higher anabolic/androgenic ratio than Ostarine (Rad is 10:1, Ostarine is 3:1) and I want to use it on the ADT cycle.

That part plays nicely with this article.

kaptank profile image
kaptank in reply to

DO NOT TAKE T PROPIONATE!!!! Honestly, it hurts like hell. Guess how I know.

in reply to kaptank

How did your "cousin of a brother of a friend of a girl you met in a bar" take it? How much?

If the "cousin of a brother of a friend of a girl I met in a bar" injects 1-2 ml with a 25 gauge into the glutes and injects slowly (10 seconds or so) they said that it doesn't hurt at all. Rumor has it that they rubbed the area afterward for half a minute.

kaptank profile image
kaptank in reply to

It was me and I sourced T from the body building community. There is good info on good suppliers. Body builders use T prop to build muscle rapidly and say "just man up, man". At our age and condition that's not much of an option. I initially injected 400mg then reduced the dose until I finally read that this is a very common effect. I am happy that it did not happen to you. Reducing the dose was just as bad. People thinking of using T prop need to be aware. Stick to T cyp.

10 sec to my mind is a very rapid injection of a very viscous liquid. I did this in minutes.

in reply to kaptank

I was just kidding with "cousin of a friend of a ..."

I made the mistake of letting my doc give me a cyp shot. I limped for 2 days. I swear he injected the entire 600 mg in maybe a millisecond or two.

When I first did cyp shots I sometimes had a little pain and a lump. I found that warming up the cyp to body temp (rubbing vial in hands), injecting with a 25 gauge into glutes, and rubbing the spot for a minute removed 100% of the pain. I must have done 100 shots using this technique and no pain ever. I inject NPP 100 - 400 mg with no issues. 100 - 200 mg of T prop with no pain. 200 - 600 mg of T cyp with no pain. Maybe my pain sensors have given up from all the jabs over the years?

My advice is that if you want to use it, try it one time. If it hurts, well, you tried. Or just use gel.

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