currently taking Nubeqa and Orgovyx and hate the sarcopenia I'm experiencing. I asked my MO about BAT and I've had two cycles of getting a month off ADT and receiving an injection of testosterone the month off of ADT before restarting ADT. I've read some positive reviews on this site about Ostarine. I have a close friend who alternates Ostarine and Ligandrol and has regained strength and muscle after a debilitating illness, not PC. Any advise or suggestions would be appreciated.
I want to try SARM's-Yes or No? - Advanced Prostate...
I want to try SARM's-Yes or No?
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AllenMarco
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If your goal is to build muscle then yes. In most cases it suppresses T as well. I have been on it for a year plus, restored all lost muscle and gained even more. It has been wonderful for me and how i feel about myself. I lift heavy to failure 5 days a week and consume tons of protein
I have locally advanced prostate cancer invasion to seminal vessicles finished treatment in 2016 but my testosterone has not recovered psa 0.03,but now I have been diagnosed with osteoporosis, I have asked for trt but urologist said not a good idea because there may be some sleeping cancer cells, I am only 8st a walking skeleton, I have just started creatine to see if it will help me, any help please.
Along with Creatine add BCCA's they are aminos that help build muscle. Increase protein intake to 1.2 grams per Kg of body weight. If it were me I would be on a protein powder that is also a Mass gainer with lots of calories. I workout 5 days a week lifting heavy under supervision of trainer
thanks, I have tried these mass gainers all I got was a fat belly, I do use whey protein, but I can't make any gains with no testosterone that's why I am looking into sarms and it's OK for osteoporosis,
Did you combine mass gainer with heavy weight lifting. Muscles need high calorie environment to grow, though I have gained muscle with a little less calories. The trick is to "bulk" with lots of calories and the above listed supplements then once you gain (20 lbs for me) then high protein lower calorie diet. I bulked for 16 months and am now in process of losing that weight gain. You won't gain muscle without lifting heavy and with low calories, I was doing that until I got a trainer and she straightened me out
yeah I realize what you are saying don't you think ostarine or similar will help me,don't want to get a fat belly with prostate cancer.
It isn't a magic muscle builder. Have to lift, take your supplements and get your nutrition in line. If you are worrying about weight gain you can do a lean bulk. Calories just above what is necessary for you, low cal protein shakes. This should preserve muscle and lead to slow growth
I have no growth in me with no testosterone, I just need something to help sarcopenia and no muscle mass, have to be careful lifting heavy weights with severe osteoporosis
I have always trained with weights. Now at 67 I am losing my hard earned muscle taking Abi. & Orgovyx. I am trying Osterine and will experiment with dosing (keeping it low at about 8mg a day for now). I have tried to read everything about it and I am willing to take a bit of a risk and use it. No Dr. can talk about it because it's not approved for human consumption at this point. To gain muscle always takes work but that said, you can build without risking very heavy weight. Be consistant in your work outs, try to increase weight a bit at a time over time and yes, you need the right kind of calories to support that growth. I won't take creatine because my level is super high already, and that's from muscle breakdown. I just started so I'll check back in after a few weeks or a month and see which way I'm heading...... Best to you.
yeah I am 74 I just do light weights because l have now got osteoporosis due to my testosterone not recovering, I have been reading that sarms are ok for p/c and osteoporosis, and I am willing to try it.
I am in a similar situation to Radars. So are you saying that if we cannot safely lift anything heavy, then Ostarine is unlikely to help with sarcopenia?
Muscles grow through tearing and repairing, If you start light and lift correctly I think you will be fine. You have to start somewhere. If you take it and do nothing I don't think you will be successful. If you can't lift heavy use b resistance bands. When in doubt hire a knowledgeable trainer
What is the benefit of muscle mass above some minimal amount if you’re not interested in having a body builders physique?
To each his own I guess. Working out has given me an above average physic for my age. My trainer says I am in best shape of all her other clients in my age range. I have noticed a big difference in getting on and off the boat, climbing stairs, helping people move and doing things around the house. My overall fitness level has been greatly improved. My MO is pleased with my gains and increase in overall health. My wife and female friends love my "new body"
Thousands of studies support resistance training. Conventional advice. Governments (including U.S.), cancer.gov, clinical trials, most MOs (every one I have asked). Muscle mass, strength, exercise amount, all correlate with PCa survival. Low quality to very high quality evidence abounds. My MO feels it is by far the most important thing that patients can do. A friend of mine is an IFBB pro bodybuilder. His PSA was over 900, Gleason 4+5. No mets per PSMA scan. He started a modified BAT program. His PSA is now around 4. No mets per PSMA scan. His MO is confused and thinks perhaps the combo of BAT with the demands of pro bodybuilding are keeping mets from growing.
According to the U.S. government, for adults with prostate cancer, greater amounts of physical activity after diagnosis help to substantially lower the risk of dying from their cancer: Physical Activity Guidelines for Americans, 2nd edition
health.gov/sites/default/fi...
For RP patients, 10-year distant metastasis-free survival rate is over 4 times better for men in the top 25% of psoas muscle strength/mass vs the bottom 25%. 10-year CSS was almost 6 times better. 10-year OSS was over 2.5 times greater: Association of Muscle Mass with Survival after Radical Prostatectomy in Patients with Prostate Cancer
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/309...
SARMs are 10:1 to 90:1 anabolic to androgenic.
Simply this means, they increase muscle and bone more than they stimulate prostate cancer. Rad-140 has the highest anabolic to androgenic ratio (90:1). Very good. I tested it and my results show more like a 20:1 ratio (using half-life, Cmax, PSA changes compared to various doses of testosterone, bioavailability, anabolic: androgenic ratio). 50 mg appears safe for my PCa. But that was at one stage and in one person. I typically take 1-3 mg per day.
Rad-140 has been improved and the derivative is Rad-150. Longer half-life. I haven't tested it so I use Rad-140.
Ostarine has a 10:1 anabolic to androgenic ratio. Not as good. But there is more data on it.
Have never heard of Ostarine or Ligandrol but will definitely mention to the MO because my husband is very concerned about loss of muscle from the ADT.
Ostarine isn't FDA approved but was designed as a cancer drug for pca. My doctor couldn't tell me to take it but didn't have a problem with me taking it as he knew all about it. Never tried Ligandrol as I am having such good luck with Ostarine
look up osterine and cardarine on body building sites. I like the site “moreplatesmoredates” lots of great info and references. You can ask your doctor all you want they won’t recommend it.
Osterine is in phase 3 trials for breast cancer and being fast tracked by FDA so get it while you can.
cancernetwork.com/view/fda-...
Also if you can’t get it in future some of us use RAD140.
can you take ostarine or similar long term
I can only answer what i have done and i have posted it on Fight Prostate Cancer group. See link below.
healthunlocked.com/user/Koc...
I will say that body builders do SARMs in cycles in order to build back diminished Testosterone. Of course we don’t have to worry about that.
so you don't think that sarms are safe enough for my p/c and no testosterone, and severe osteoporosis.
In my opinion it is very safe. did you not read my post that i linked?
you are safe to have trt with your Gleason score, don't understand all you are saying it's complicated but it's not safe to have sarms long term.
Sorry for the confusion.
"you are safe to have trt with your Gleason score, don't understand all you are saying it's complicated but it's not safe to have sarms long term. "
Are these statements or questions? i see no ? mark so I am not getting your statement/question jist.
I am going to assume it is questions.
IMO It is safe to take it long term, but you need to keep an eye on your AST/ALT/HDL ALSO if you are a body builder or anyone that does not want to lower Testosterone you need to do cycles. This is explained very well on the website moreplatesmoredates.com/?s=...
My gleason score was 3+3 before RP then at RP it was upgraded to 3+4. Now since it is metastasized gleason score doesn't matter as you are going to be on ADT and or worse.
Gleason score is for determining severity of disease at the beginning to determine treatment options. Once the beast is loose gleason doesn't come into SOC treatments. it's done with scans and PSA.
I have not got any testosterone it has not recovered since I finished my treatment in 2016,it's not good to use sarms long term you have to do cycles with pct,I can't be bothered doing that at 74,if it was safe long term I would do it they are linked to stroke and heart attack, just read about it on different websites.
So we have some warriors that have given you good sound advice which you asked for with weight training, SARMs (osterine) per your suggestion to taking it.
Now after a day of research on Osterine which is very safe and is in phase 3 trials you have decided your not going to try something that has been proven to work and is safe.
The scare articles are BS if you delve into them. us warriors are taking much lower doses than body builders are and having great results.
You have a friend who is excelling on Osterine granted he doesn,\'t have PCa. Use his knowledge!
I would suggest starting with a lower dose than we do like 1 mg every other day then work up to 5 mg/day after a few weeks. You also can't sit around you must be active. Walk for now if you can't lift weights but eventually you need to build muscle and thus bone strength.
Oh one VERY important point is what is your E2 level? Please look into E2 and bone and mental health and E2 add back. without T you have no Estrogen.
Good luck with you fight against this beast.
so you think ostarine or rd-140 will be ok for me long term, I do walk 3 times a week for about 45mns and I lift light weights, will that low dose help my sarcopenia, there is a pill I think you can take for estrogen.
just try it short term for now.
You need to browse our posts on estrogen. There are many.
You don’t want to take estrogen orally as it causes serious liver issues. Low dose Transdermal is what you want bit you MUST test your levels before and during any E2 patch or any drugs and supplement for that matter
I have no testosterone how will it effect me every where I have read is that to do it in cycles and not long term which I want.
I have been reading about people losing weight with ostarine, I want to put weight on I am only 8st.
hi,when I think ostarine will be ok I read reports on it been liver toxic and heart attack and when I read user reviews most are negative ,
Read the details of the studies. Some are case studies of former or even current alcoholics. One case study stated that 50% of SARMs sold are not SARMs but anabolic steroids. Then they went on to claim that liver marker increase in an alcoholic patient was due to a SARM.
How do you state that the SARM has a 50/50 chance of being an anabolic steroid and then claim that increases in a liver marker in an alcoholic is due to said SARM?
By the way, the dose used in many of these "studies" is 10 to 100 times higher than what KocoPr uses.
I've read thousands of articles and, as soon as someone mentions PED (performance enhancing drug) reason is often thrown out the window. Hint to the wise: PCa does not have a built-in bias against or for PEDs.
But if you are ok with your current state and progress, why mess with a SARM or a PED? Or even protein supplements for that matter.
If someone is concerned with muscle wasting, fat gain, joint/bone/muscle health, then the "PED bias" needs to be scrutinized. KocoPr told you what he knows but he is fighting the anti-PED establishment.
so it's not worth me doing sarms with locally advanced prostate cancer would it be dodgy.
That is not what I said but if you don't want to do them, don't do them.
It pays to test what we are doing. Not everyone is going to follow through with testing and in many cases, the wise thing to do is to do nothing.
Workout, eat a balanced diet (Mediterranean), get your calories and protein. Make sure you get enough sleep.
yeah but do you use sarms,do you have to be on adt to use sarms, because I am not on adt ,will it cause p/c recurrence
Easier if not on ADT. Can be on ADT but you need to be more careful.
since I have been reading on here there's only a couple of people using it and 1 stopped due to rising psa, kocopr said that you have to be on adt.
I think that's why bodybuilders use them. They are on ADT.
I have been using it for 2 months now. I have had -0- negative effects that I can tell. Since I get blood work done every 3 months (just this week) we see no issues . I do believe it is helping me retain muscle. I had my hemotology oncology pharmacist weigh in "off the record" and she saw nothing to indicate this would cause me problems in what research she could find.
I don't know what to do after a lot of negatives,I have locally advanced prostate cancer t3b no mo, finished rt/ht 2016,but my testosterone has never recovered and now I have severe osteoporosis, can still go for daily walks and do pressups, have to be careful with weights, people with osteoporosis can lift weights but with severe osteoporosis it's dodgy.
SARMs are thought to be testosterone suppressive-i dont believe they increase it..
They mimic the androgenic action of testosterone.
They reduce your body's testosterone if you take massive doses. Bodybuilders frequently use SARMs for post cycle therapy. This is done to COUNTER the T shutdown from steroids.
Note that ADT shuts it off so no real change even if massive SARM doses are used. At the same time, they will add a lot of androgenic action. This stimulates androgen sensitive PCa cells (e.g. LNCap phenotypes). Massive doses might harm you.
Easy to test if you want. I've tested and 50-100 mg daily increases androgenic action for my PCa.
HDL decreases 50% in me. Very reliable. That isn't good. So I take 1-4 weeks and then stop for a while. Maybe 50% duty cycle for on/off.
If you want to reduce the HDL decreases, a small dose of Cardarine does it for me. Again, very reliably. I can take 3 mg Rad-140 and 1 mg of Cardarine and there are no discernable blood panel changes noted. The only change I see is muscle and energy.
Some guys don't see as much of an HDL decrease that I do.
That said, it is VERY important to test your response. Monitor your PSA and lipids. Start with 1 mg Rad-140 (or Rad-150) and measure PSA after a few weeks. If it looks good, increase a little and eventually hit on 3 mg Rad and 1 mg Cardarine. Pulse it 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off, monitor PSMA scans and PSA. Test lipids every once in a while.
cancer.gov" “Upon oral administration, SARM RAD140 acts as an agonist in select tissues, such as skeletal muscle and bone, where it binds to and activates androgen receptors (ARs). In the prostate and breasts, RAD140 acts as an antagonist and blocks AR activation and AR-mediated cellular proliferation. Therefore, this agent may improve bone formation and muscle mass and strength and may inhibit both the growth of the prostate in males and AR-dependent breast cancer cell proliferation.”.
Oxandrolone (Anavar): 10 hours, anabolic/androgenic ratio ~ 450:24
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate (NPP): 3 days, anabolic/androgenic ratio ~ 125:37
Both of these can be obtained at compounding pharmacies (example: empowerpharmacy.com/ in Texas). Both work primarily by increasing nitrogen retention. Oxandrolone is perhaps the only true fat burning steroid. It induces lipolysis vs. simply raising your metabolic rate. Ox increases RBCs and is used to negate cachexia.
sarms have failed clinical trials, and they and they increase heart problems and stroke.
As I said: monitor PSA and lipids. If you do not want to do that do not use SARMs or any other anabolic or androgenic substance. Stick with SOC. It is the best bet for many men.
However, I must point out that things do not "fail" clinical trials. They can "fail" to meet a predetermined end-point. If this is the case, please point me to the clinical trials.
To set the record straight, SARMs have not been proven to increase heart problems and stroke. That is jumping to a conclusion based on sketchy data (most of the data I have seen is extremely low quality, blatant scare tactic data published by "researchers" who give research a bad name). This statement is a blanket indictment of an entire class of drugs at all doses in all people in all environments. As we know, ADT can reduce bone and muscle mass. If someone is dying from sarcopenia, it is safe to say that the risk/reward ratio of some therapies will have changed. Some for the worse, some for the better.
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