Hello, so I've been on Armour for 14 weeks now and these are my current bloods:
TSH - 0.007
T4 - 13.7 (12-22)
T3 - 6.3 (3.3 - 6.8)
My doctor (private specialist) said ideal bloods on Armour would be T4 12-14 and T3 5.5-6.5, and TSH would be suppressed. So going by that, it seems my bloods are pretty ok, and there isn't much room for an increase.
However I still feel just as crap. Still can't work. Still exhausted/brain fog daily. Still can't get up before noon. Still need constant naps. I barely leave my house. I'm claiming benefits.
I'm 5 months into meds for my thyroid and I'm no better. Last time I posted everyone basically said I needed to be patient. But it's difficult to be patient when my life is essentially on hold.
Is it likely if I keep going with Armour I'm going to feel any better? Has anyone else found a medication has started working for them after a long time?
I'm seeing my doctor next week for a review. She did mention we may try T3-only if after 3-6 months on NDT, with good bloods, I still felt unwell and I guess that's where I'm at now??
I'm just scared and honestly so fed up that nothing seems to be working for me. Feels like I will never get better.
Does anyone have any advice? I'm also now only 8 weeks away from my wedding 🥲
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rosael56
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Hello. I haven't had vitamins retested for a few months. Last time I did only vit D was low (36), everything else was good. I've been on high dose vit D supplements since then (initially 8000iu daily, now 4000). I also take b complex, selenium, magnesium, vitamin C.
I'm gluten free and have been for 6 months. Can't face dairy free... Is it really likely to make that much of a difference?
Have noticed zero improvements from doing any of these things sadly
So did I 🥲 I don't feel very hopeful that NDT is going to do the trick at this point, especially as there doesn't seem to be much room for an increase.
I'm still hopeful though! There has to be something that works. Can't wait for my appointment next week to see what doctor says.
NDT does not suit everyone. It tends to lead to significantly lower FT4. You may be one of those people who need FT4 higher in range. Some do fine on T3 only, some on NDT with low FT4 as long as FT3 is higher, while others need FT4 closer to FT3. I am one of those, so take individual T3 and T4 to better suit my needs. Unfortunately, it is all trial and error so patience is required…☹️It may be that you need to add some T4 to a slightly lower dose of NDT.
It's so difficult isn't it, not knowing what's going to work and having to try everything out? Because in the meantime you have to suffer
My cortisol is crap, particularly morning cortisol, which I think is why my doctor is leaning towards trying T3 only (as it apparently works best for increasing cortisol). But maybe T4 added to NDT is what I need. So hard to know.
No I don't think I have actually. But in a nutshell my morning is very low (3.6 - I believe it should be 10 minimum) and the rest of the day is in range. This is saliva cortisol by the way
I actually have a feeling my cortisol is too high at night, as I nearly always perk up at around 11pm and struggle to get to sleep often until 3am. But the latest I tested on the 4 point test was 10pm so I'm unsure
Doctors disagree about cortisol. Dr. Peatfield said that low cortisol should be treated before adding thyroid hormone, whereas I think that Dr. Skinner believed optimal T3 levels would normalise cortisol. Since your doctor seems knowledgeable, do you think he would be willing to let you try a little HC if your cortisol levels won’t normalise on Armour? Some have success taking only 5-10 mg in the morning.
Not sure, maybe. I think she'd prefer me to try T3 only first, as her opinion is that T3 only is a good option for those with cortisol issues. I'm not sure she likes the idea of HC for those without actual adrenal insufficiency. But I will discuss it with her further.
I think it might just be that it’s early days. Before you started NDT you were on far too small a dose of levothyroxine. And when we’re left on too low a dose (or untreated) for a while, it means our overall health drops considerably.
I think patience might be the word. And yes, know all too well how frustrating that is.
Really? Surely after 14 weeks I should have some improvement, if improvement is going to come? Or can it really take that long for any difference to happen?
Honestly, I really don’t think 14 weeks is all that long. You’re seeing some benefits from being on Armour by the sounds of things but because your overall health had dropped quite a way, it will take a while to see all the benefits. Your body needs time to repair.
I’d actually advise strongly against chopping and changing. Give it a bit longer before you try something else. You could be on the cusp of feeling much better but you’ll be in danger of missing it if you change your medication to something else.
Hi, I just wanted to come back and say you were right! My doctor thinks we need to give it much longer. Because I've had a few improvements on the Armour (heart rate, weight loss, appetite) she is happy I'm on the right medication and said it could take 9-12 months for my cortisol levels to improve and my fatigue to lift, but we will revisit in about 4 months to see how I am then. So basically I'm impatient and I need to give it time, like you said lol.
It’s so hard to be patient when you’re desperate to feel better. Been there, got that t-shirt! Hopefully though you will little by little start to notice improvement. I’m really pleased that you seem to have a supportive doctor—hang on to them, they’re like gold dust. 🙂
My heart goes out to you. I'm also similar to you, I can't Armour to make it work for me, currently trying to add t3 to it. My honest opinion based on years of struggle is, you gave it 14 weeks, you should feel different.
Do you split your dose? How much Armour are you taking?
It could be that ft4 is too low for your needs. Would you try increasing Armour to see if it makes any difference?
Numbers are just numbers.
Low cortisol suggests that dose may not be enough.
Thanks for this reply. I also feel like 14 weeks is surely enough time for some difference to happen. I have had improvements in my mental health (but this might be because I'm also having counselling). But in terms of tiredness, brain fog, motivation, sleep patterns, physical stamina...none at all.
I'm taking 2 grains and I do one grain at 7am and one at 1pm. My doctor said taking it at 7am should fix my sleeping pattern and allow me to start getting up earlier because the T3 should give me a boost, but no it's made no difference. I set an alarm for 7 to take my meds, then fall back asleep. If I force myself up before 12, I feel like a half cut zombie. My morning cortisol just isn't enough I don't think.
I also have to go back to bed for a nap most afternoons. I struggle through the day exhausted, then perk up late at night and feel wide awake and can't sleep.
I'd consider a higher dose of Armour, or adding T4 if that might make any difference. T3 only also seems promising. It's so hard to know what to do.
Hi I’ve been in a similar place to you although currently on a 6 month trial of T3. I was under medicated for years probably 12. The last 6 years have been spent mostly at home with severe fatigue & brain fog horrendous. I actually thought I was dying & they had missed something. Ive definitely improved since starting T3 last December but still exhausted by 5ish & spend evenings on the sofa. Brain fog improved not not massively. My point is really maybe it just needs more time to work effectively for you. Don’t give up. 🤞you feel a bit better soon.
I've just read through some of your posts and I'm so sorry to hear you're in a very similar boat to me, but you've suffered much longer.
I feel your pain. I'm also mostly housebound, my fiance does basically everything. I get the odd good day where I can have friends over or pop out for a couple hours, but I also have days bedbound.
2 days ago I managed to clean my bathroom but had to lie down afterwards because I was shaking with the effort. I bet you can relate.
I wonder if T3 only might be the way to go for you? Have you read Paul Robinson's "recovering with T3?". He couldn't get well on any meds at all until he tried T3 only.
I really relate to all of this! I've been doing okay for some years even though I struggled, but since last July it's been a terrible time.Hard to believe I was going out dancing last year and pole dancing!
We will find the answer, it's just looking for it can be exhausting.
I live on my own, I do my best, I cook when I can and make simple food, clean around etc. I have met a wonderful man and I'm thinking of moving with his to US, to I need this sorted by next year...
I've read Paul's book, I have it. I tried to lower NDT and add t3 in January and was struggling. But maybe need a different type of swap, a faster one.
In a way I like living on my own, because when I don't feel well I don't want to face anyone.I hope I can, I believe I will
It is hard, for me it's been 7 years, last few months being the worst ever, but I know I was well on meds before, there is just Hashimotos and potentially Cushings Diseases that I'm getting MRI for. Everything else ruled out x
Oh really you might have Cushings? Interesting. In a way that would be positive wouldn't it, as you'd have a treatment plan then?I haven't had anything like that ruled out, but I don't really have the symptoms to support Cushings or Addisons. My doctor isn't concerned about me having either. Although perhaps I should pursue it anyway just to be sure.
I've had symptoms getting worse for a number of years but I was still functional, until May 2023 when I had major abdominal surgery to remove an ovarian cyst. I think it triggered something, because ever since then I haven't been fully myself, and about 3 months after the surgery was when the brain fog & excessive sleepiness started. Spent a few months being told it was depression, until I finally got diagnosed with Hashimoto's. And here I am.
hi. I am on NDT. I was reading about your energy and where you peak in the evening. This is adrenals. My dr put me on dr Wilson’s adrenal fatigue protocol. There is also a book which explains what you are saying about feeling poorly and then at 6pm feel your best. The book says u need to be in bed by 10.30pm otherwise you get the next hit and you are up until 2pm. The cycle is 4 hourly. Often 2pm is a hit where we feel worst. The meds are vitamins at 6am, 10am, 2pm and 6pm and before bed. I am on 3 grains. I am 51 going through menopause. I am 18 months post TT and only just finding my groove. It is an awful battle. I think you have a few options.
Like Roseal56 I too have low cortisol am, and over range as the day progresses. I looked up Dr Wilson’s supplement ( first thought was not yet another £65 per bottle) and wonder what actual works in it as it seems to be calcium and non working hormones .. so what is left?
This is interesting, I do feel that adrenals may be a big part of my problem. Unfortunately they make it sound so easy - be in bed by 10pm... I currently can't fall asleep before 2am for the life of me, I just toss and turn. I am wide awake at night. Even if I've been exhausted all day.
There is also a book. Adrenal fatigue, the 21st century…… by dr Wilson. The book talks about lifestyle changes that can help people with adrenal fatigue. I found it interesting. I took the bits that were relevant to me. I have adrenal fatigue once in 2013 and it was debilitating. Adrenal fatigue isn’t about taking pills it is so big picture
I was only on Levo medication for 6 months after my TT. I changed to NDT Thyroid s and felt well for over seven years. I couldn't buy it during covid and bought armour. This never suited me. It could be that you need to split your dose, do you?
Your FT4 is low compared to your FT3. To feel well mine we always high.
It;s so disappointing for you, sorry. I hope that you get some answers soon.
Have you actually shared your vitamin and ferritin/iron levels here? You said “everything else was good” - by good do you mean “in range” or optimal?
I fell into the trap of blaming my thyroid meds but turned out was severe low iron without anemia - overlooked because ferritin and iron had been “in range”. Needed the full panel to realize how bad things were.
Also, some of us a naturally night owls - if we try to force ourselves into becoming larks it affects our health.
No I haven't, but I've looked into what's optimal and what's not, and I know my vitamins are ok. Not as optimal as they could be, but also not terrible. And that was before I was supplementing them.
I definitely have always been a night owl, but never this bad. 3am - midday sleep pattern is difficult to manage normal life. I used to get up at 7.30 for work every day with no difficulties as recently as a year ago. It's a mess!
A month ago you wrote you felt so much better on 2 grains Armour - I just wonder if you have gone up a little too much a little too quickly and overshot your best dose of NDT ?
Did you increase in 1/4 grains weekly/fortnightly and monitor yourself on blood pressure, pulse and body temperature as you increased your dose ?
What were your bench mark T3 and T4 readings before switching to Armour ?
Do you split the 2 grains or take it just once a day and how long did you wait from last dose to blood draw ?
Getting married is rarely stress free - and any added pressure will be negatively affecting you.
No, sadly I didn't feel much better overall. I had a few symptoms which had improved (mental health, although I'm also having counselling so unsure what's helped that), appetite, heart rate.
But the tiredness/fatigue, brain fog etc hasn't changed at all. And unfortunately since then I've also started developing a lot of stomach issues too. My periods were better for 2 cycles but they've also gone back to how they were pre Armour, so potentially a fluke.
Before Armour I was on T4 only and my FT4 was about 16 I think, and FT3 was 4.2
Yes I do split my dose, 1 grain first thing and 1 grain afternoon. Before blood draw I took my last dose about 18 hours before.
I increased my dose by 1/2 grains. I did monitor my resting heart rate, which before Armour was in the 50s and is now back to normal (for me) at 70.
It's possible I've overshot, but honestly I've felt the same the whole time 🤷 1.5 grains and then 2 grains, no difference. Could a quarter of a grain difference between the answer?
Lol you're telling me. My biggest stress is whether I'll be well enough to actually get through the day.
‘My doctor (private specialist) said ideal bloods on Armour would be T4 12-14 and T3 5.5-6.5’,
Your doctor can not possibly know your ideal bloods as every single persons is individualised. I presume those numbers are ‘frees’ and she is asking for your FT3 high in range and FT4 bottom range? 🤷♀️.
Unfortunately when we’re ill there becomes less room for compromise and your personal individualised dose becomes all the more important. Some of us medicating Armour have found it too T3 potent and had to reduce the dose and added some Levo to allow FT3 to reduce and FT4 level to raise. This balances the porcine FT4:FT3 ratio to a level more suited to some humans.
I am well on Armour + Levo but if I medicated only Armour and got similar labs to yours, I think I too would be very ill.
I think what she meant was that fT4 is naturally lower when taking Armour, in comparison to fT3, and that is what's expected. So those are the bloods that would indicate you're on the correct dosage of Armour. She's a great doctor, very much willing to base things on patient's symptoms, so that was just what she said as a sort of guideline before I started taking the Armour for what we'd aim for.
How do I know if adding T4 would be a good thing? That's what I'm struggling with. When I was on levothyroxine alone I felt horrendous, worse than now. I'm afraid adding T4 will make me feel worse. It seems like it's all trial and error at this point. How did you know you needed to add T4, as opposed to say switching to T3 only?
'I think what she meant was that fT4 is naturally lower when taking Armour, in comparison to fT3, and that is what's expected' - agree, as porcine thyroid gland has a higher T3:T4 ratio than humans.
'So those are the bloods that would indicate you're on the correct dosage of Armour.' - Absolutely not, as explained in previous reply some of us find Armour too T3 potent.
I had four years of Levothyroxine mono-therapy that made me so ill I termed it ‘Levothytoxine’, as it disabled me more month on month. On forum advice I learnt my FT4 levels were too high and FT3 deficient, and gained NHS T3 meds. All good.
Then T3 meds were withdrawn (twice with a fight in between), and disillusioned I switched to self-medicating WP Thyroid NDT. All good. Then WP Thyroid discontinued, so switched to self-medicating Armour. Felt unwell and labs showed much lower FT4 and higher FT3 than previous. On forum advice I eventually reduced Armour and introduced some Levo. All good.
How do I know if adding T4 would be a good thing?' How did you know you needed to add T4, as opposed to say switching to T3 only?' I didn't know for certain, so went on probabilities, and given that taking the wrong dose/meds can make us very ill and take ages to reverse the damage, I just worked through the protocol most likely to succeed. Research shows a high proportion of hypothyroid people gain well being on Levo, a small subset (although I suspect larger than reported) requires T3 meds added to Levo, and lastly a very small proportion require T3-only meds. I also knew my previous labs that had made me feel well.
Thanks for your advice. I wonder how common it is to need T4 added to Armour.
Also did you have cortisol/adrenal issues? As that seems to be a big issue for me. I know T3 only is unusual, but my doctor suspected I may be one of those few who need it way back before I even tried NDT when she saw my cortisol results & heard my symptoms. So I'm just a bit lost really.
I will ask my doctor about all of this. Maybe adding T4 will be something to try. I'm willing to give anything a go. It just seems like such a minefield of trial and error, and I'm so afraid of feeling any worse than I do already.
Your doctor cannot know you need T3-only meds because of cortisol issues.
Most of the forum have suffered some degree of poor adrenal health because un/mis-managed hashi/hypos years of inadequate thyroid hormones coupled with savage autoimmune attacks are big contributors.
Yes, my free cortisol (saliva test) was very low for many years to the point of ME being brandied about. Also under-range blood aldosterone but this was a years ago and no further investigations ever offered. Both started improving on Levo & T3 combo meds over several years before I switched to NDT. Now a days cortisol levels are normalised and I have established stamina and resilience.
Many of us require extra T3 meds for wellbeing, but if you’re familiar with deiodinase behaviours you will know out of this subset most will require only a small amount because the sum total results in more than we medicate. In addition our required set amount is changeable dependant upon our heath, eg in those with adrenal issues T3 can be difficult to introduce and many members have had to go much lower and slower than the usual protocol until the body has better tolerance. This is when NDT can fail (unless the FT4:FT3 is manipulated) because the dose is unable to be raised quickly/high enough to reduce hypo symptoms.
The advantage of combo meds is control over the T4:T3 ratio, although when I medicated WP Thyroid I did not need to add Levo. I attribute this to WP Thyroid having slightly less T3 content than Armour.
Thanks for the info. I keep getting such conflicting information, because for example Paul Robinson also writes that he could not get his cortisol back to normal until he went on T3 only. So I know for some people small amounts of T3 with T4 is not enough to fix it. But then for others it does work. It's so difficult to know what to do.
I will say I didn't have much trouble introducing T3 with Armour. I had some adrenaline rushes to begin with but otherwise it's been fine.
How long did it take for you to feel better initially? You say it was a number of years to improve cortisol, did you feel unwell that entire time? I suppose I'm being impatient (I am naturally an impatient person!) but I just really want my life back, and being expected to spend years housebound waiting for meds to work is so horribly disheartening.
I am so jealous of those lucky people who take levo and get better within a few weeks!
How long were you symptomatic before diagnosis? You might find that, even with good bloods, you will need time for your body to really get to grips with the changes it’s having to deal with. If you had broken your leg and got good treatment, your leg is not going to be ‘cured’ as soon as your plaster is dry (if they even do that with a broken leg these days).
Most people on here, even when doing well, understand that ‘rest and recuperation’ becomes a necessary part of their lives. Perhaps you got used to Hashi type flares where, in some respects, life is great. You are really motoring. Rest and recuperation? Pah!
My thinking is we become ‘immune’ to what ‘normal’ people take for granted. They know when they have to stop burning the candle at both ends. We somehow lose that intelligence when we become hypo.
Sounds like you are on a run up to a wedding. Congrats and every happiness I could wish for you. However I remember my wedding and it was fraught with stress. Not an ideal situation to try and get back to ‘resetting’ your bodily needs.
What you've said definitely makes a lot of sense and rings true for me! I've had symptoms for years honestly. Probably about 10 years of needing afternoon naps, and slowly getting more tired over time but just accepting it as normal. Anxiety got worse and worse. I kept going to doctors over the years with random symptoms nobody could explain - stomach issues, period issues, aches and pains.
I became visually impaired in 2021 and no doctor can tell me why, except that my eye muscles weakened for no reason... Wonder if this is thyroid related although doctors all say it shouldn't be... But what are the chances of it being random?
Then May 2023 I had unrelated gynae surgery. A couple weeks before it I had my thyroid tested and I had a slightly under range T4 but didn't know what it meant at that time and doctors said it was normal because my TSH was in range (by 0.2) 🙄🙄 I was losing hair, sleeping 3 hours every afternoon after work, anxiety off the charts. I was still able to work but only part time. My anxiety was terrible and focused around my health because I knew I was ill deep down.
After surgery I never properly recovered from the fatigue. I went back to work but I struggled and started getting brain fog and attacks of sleepiness, and then October 2023 is when I crashed hard and could no longer function. So it's been a long time coming.
Thank you so much. You're right, the wedding hasn't exactly helped me to relax. I'm looking forward to it though, the venue have been so great about it, I've got a room so I can escape during the afternoon for a lie down if I need to. Fingers crossed all will go well!
Oh Dear. All this sounds so familiar. Hypo symptoms are not understood by medics and the list the NHS provides is of extremely little help (it would seem) to medics and/or patients. Really its the more unusual symptoms which might help any half interested medic diagnose hypo in a timely manner. You will see many people posting all sorts of weird and wonderful symptoms on here which have improved with proper treatment. “Eye muscles weakened for no reason”!? Muscle issues are HUGE in hypothyroidism. Hopefully when you get sorted this just might improve. I have heart muscle issues and my GP could hardly hold back a stifled laugh when I made the connection. I know why, because whilst heart muscle is muscle it’s a ‘different’ kind of muscle - which I was well aware of. They think patients know nothing and can get away with being enormously ignorant themselves. Their ignorance is massive, never mind their extremely poor communication skills.
Enjoy your wedding. Oddly if something goes wrong, that can make the day extra memorable. Makes it even more perfect. Don’t worry if stuff like that happens. Happy days.
Sadly it's unlikely my eyes will improve. I already had a lazy eye, and my eyes have never "worked together" (i.e. merging two images into one) but before the age of 7 your brain is able to ignore this and essentially delete one of the images so I've always been ok. After the age of 7 it can't do this, and so my eye muscles weakening as an adult moved my lazy eye and my brain lost the ability to delete the second image, resulting in permanent, constant double vision. I have to wear an occluded lens on one eye to stop it, so I am essentially blind in one eye. So hypothyroidism may have actually disabled me!
It sucks and all the eye doctors I've seen have been fascinated (as it's incredibly rare to have double vision that doesn't respond to treatment - intractable diplopia) but they just shrug when I ask why it happened.
They're gonna attempt Botox injections in my eye muscles to try and fix it, but it's unlikely it will work. It's been a rough few years for me honestly!! My gynae surgery came with a cancer scare so I've basically been ill, disabled and chronically anxious for the last 3 years.
Anyway sorry for my life story 🤣 you're right about the wedding. I'm excited about it, I think it'll be great even if I don't feel well. I just have to accept it might be the case.
I’m really sorry to hear that you are struggling on NDT. Which brand are you on? There are a few brands out there and I found that ERFA and NP didn’t agree with me. I’m now back on Armour thyroid and feeling better but not as I was before my thyroidectomy due to cancer.
Perhaps, you should get your vitamin levels checked especially Vitamin D because you mention you are not working and too unwell to leave the house.
Try to keep positive and focus on your forthcoming wedding.
How much protein do you eat? I found that making sure I eat enough protein (a lot) was a game changer for energy, exhaustion, exercise tolerance etc. I've also heard that it is important for supporting adrenals, which I feel like for me is true. On top of that taking Betaine and Pepsin can help if you have low stomach acid (which we often do), and help you to digest and absorb nutrients, and that protein especially.
I myself am still on the path of getting my correct dose. I'm just on levothyroxine and haven't tried NDT, but I felt the same in terms of not being able to get out of bed and energy etc, and although I'm still not right, these two things have made a world of difference. For me at least they have become non-negotiables.
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Got my strange results back after 6 weeks of being on T3.
the more I reduce my armour the higher the results seem to get, confused.
Thyroid Suppression? Hashimotos & armour 
My blood results after 9 weeks on 100mcg
