If anyone on this forum has had any experience or opinions about adrenal glandulars, positive or negative, i would love to hear. I havent tried them yet, but i am curious...
I say this because i first experimented with two different NDT's a couple of years ago ( a Thai and american ndt ) over the course of a year or longer, slowly working my way up to 3 to 4 grains, with NO effect. After a blood test, i looked to be hyper on paper, but i felt fine. No different to how i was before trying them.
Back then my tsh was 3.2-3.3 roughly before i suppressed it with ndt. Fast forward to today years later and my tsh is now 4.19 (4.2 is the highest number on the labs range) - so its gone up a lot since before.
After looking at this forum recently, on older posts i can see dr.peatfield use to treat the adrenals first. Im really wondering if this is why i couldnt get ndt to work. My basal temp first thing in the morning was 36.1 back when i tried ndt initially. Its 35.8 these days, so definitely seems to be getting worse if temps are ANYTHING to go by. And im not feeling too great.
Any thoughts / opinions welcome
Thanks
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Years ago I did see Dr P, did all the adrenal stuff and started NDT (Armour). For some reason his approach didn't work for me and I ended up with awful anxiety and he didn't know how to help me. I think eventually things must have evened out as I was on NDT for over a year but then I wasn't on enough and being overseen by then by an NHS Endo and the whole thing was a disaster and I ended up back on Levo.
I have now learnt that some people 'fail' NDT due to low vitamin levels and I know for sure my ferritin was low at that time, likely also vit D & folate.
Have you had your key vitamin levels checked lately and are you supplementing anything?
interesting. Thank you. Right now the only supplements i have in my cupboard are fish oil and a multivitamin. I'm not taking either though and havent in awhile since i wanted my blood results to not be skewed. Im waiting for a cortisol test kit too so ive had to stay off of them.
It is a good quality vitamin though with the methylated forms of vitamins sourced from food instead of synthetic. But unfortunately it is a multivitamin that only contains 1k iu vitamin d, so pretty minimal as far as the standard goes for D now a days.
I think i have only had D and ferritin tested. I will see if i can post them below
DD/MM/YYYY
SERUM FERRITIN LEVEL
Tested on: 04/01/2023
Result: 141 ug/L (10.0 - 322.0)
VITAMIN D
Tested on: 03/04/2023
Result: 47 nmol/L
Do you feel ok on Levo ?
Also, just to add. I wasnt actually taking a vitamin at the time i was taking ndt so you could be right. But my diet was pretty balanced at the time so i dont know
It's a bit of a long story to be fair and the mists of time have blurred some of the details plus some of it was pretty awful and I was very ill at various points. Anyway, no I wasn't great at all on Levo but doggedly stuck it out thinking I couldn't do NDT/T3 plus all the awful stuff that was associated with even trying it. Landed back here last summer, got my vitamin levels checked, started supplementing, saw a private Endo and got some T3 added to the Levo and am currently in the improving stage. Still lots better than on Levo alone.
Your ferritin looks OK although it can be falsly raised if you have inflammation going on. Have you had that checked?
Vit D is too low.
Vitamin D should be around 100 - 150. Buy one that includes vit K2 to help it go to your bones. Some are available in oil or you can take it with an oily meal for better absorption. Use this calculator to work out how much to take to get your level to 100-150. wildatlantichealth.com/vita...
Probably a good idea to check them all at once.
Multivitamins aren't recommended here as they often contain low quality vitamins in low quantity, not enough to get your levels to optimal which is where we need them. Also they frequeently contain things like iodine (not recommended in hypo) & iron which will prevent you absorbing some of the other things they contain.
Better to test and supplement individually as required.
I will definitely get some D in that case then thanks. The actual quality of the vitamin i have is good but it DOES contain iodine and too little D. I would love to get my nutrients tested but i can only allocate so much to testing right now. Although i do want to. I have not had CRP checked, just cholesterol, h1abc, triglycerides. The latter of which was a little high because i dont think im handling sugar very well right now maybe due to my thyroid
In many ways although diet is important, because we get low stomach acid, we cannot absorb the vitamins that we should from diet alone. You would be worse off if you were vegetarian/vegan but you can't rely on diet alone to get good, optimal vitamin levels. Most people need to be on a B complex and I also need extra folate for instance on top of that.
You could try asking if GP will test them, some helpful ones will.
Do you have Hashi's and if so have you tried a gluten and possibly also dairy free diet?
I tried gluten free for a really long time and didnt get the benefit other people seem to notice without it. I do eat dairy occassionally but i dont think it does me much harm. I dont believe i have hashimotos as i had my antibodies tested years ago and that came back okay, my tsh is the only thing that seems to be off. My ft3 and ft4 i dont think were too bad. But its a shame someone like myself needs to exceed the nhs' reference range to get SUPPORT. If i am 0.2 under what is normal, great. 0.2 in the other direction and something could be wrong. Doesn't make sense to me
So is a b complex and vitamin d the general supplement recommendation for thyroid health do you think ? I'm not vegetarian/vegan but i try to eat a variety. Juices , milk , oats, meats, eggs, fruit, collagen Etc.
Yes although testing is recommended. Many people are ferritin & sometimes iron deficient although your result doesn't suggest that for you, BUT if you do have inflammation then it could be falsley raised.
Jaydee, I forgot to ask - would it be possible to share my thyroid blood work with you? It is very recent. I ask because I'm in the normal ranges. But definitely not feeling great.
I'm not taking anything right now. My doctor at my local surgery marked me down as euthyroid when he tested my thyroid back in January, i think my tsh was between 2-3 at that point. But they did the blood test at 4pm or somewhere around there. Seems silly that if i was 0.2 OVER with regard to TSH, then there would be a problem.. I am waiting on some thyroid-s to come that i ordered online currently
Did you ever try getting an NHS diagnosis? That would be a good thing to do long term and your TSH is about high enough although you would need 2 tests like that on the NHS.
Have you had antibodies checked?
Refuse tests in the afternoon. Tell them you are working or similar and only accept early appointments.
What were the January results? That said if they were taken in the afternoon then the TSH will be lower.
I had no idea my tsh was high enough to get help from the nhs. News to me! I might have to do that. Great idea on refusing the afternoon tests, i didnt think to do this because i didnt even know they were testing my thyroid. It was part of a regular check up since I was diagnosed with fatty liver back at the start of 2023.Im going to try attach a picture of my test i had from the doctors. Sorry my camera is awful. But if you can see - it seems the test was actually done at 17:19 ! And unfortunately only tsh was tested.
I think on that one it's 2.1, shame it wasnt taken earlier in the day. Up to you but even if you ended up self medicating its still worth getting an NHS diagnosis otherwise you will always be self medicating.
I wish with all my heart I had tested and sorted my adrenals out before I began thyroid medication. Adding adrenal support when already on thyroid hormone has been very very hard. There is a hierarchy of treatment suggested by some people…
So starting on the adrenal supplements isnt the best if you already take some kind of thyroid replacement; better to start before hand? I wonder why that is. I thought the effect might be the same either way! Curious
All organ systems and hormones work together and the thought is if we’ve been left with thyroid hormone deficiency for many years, then other systems and particularly the adrenals become compromised.
As soon as we take thyroid meds metabolism tries to increase and compromised adrenals will struggle to keep up. For many it’s a chicken and egg situation as both systems are particularly connected and rely on each other for good health.
I would never take whole adrenal glandular but have tried cortex and it made me very ill. I have also tried other organ mixes and they also made my head swimmy. I too was treated by Dr P and so wanted to be able to take glandulars as they seem to have helped many people, including Dr P himself.
I’m with don’tforgetcortisol in that I wish my adrenals had been supported before starting thyroid meds but I didn’t have the forums knowledge when first starting out on Levothyroxine many years ago.
You asked if if was the cortex that upset me and it was. Many who can't take the whole glandular can take just the cortex but I can't take any.
You can take one, or several a day where it's better to space out the dosing to keep a constant level. This is the protocol Dr P tried to introduce to me many years ago .. nutri-meds.com/adrenal-guide/
I so wished I could have taken glandulars and would always recommend supporting the adrenals BEFORE medicating any thyroid hormone replacement. Just start low and slow and don't rush. If they make you feel unwell, then just stop but hopefully like many people they will help. You may want to think about a little thyroid glandular too if the adrenals are successful.
Yeah, this is seems to line up with all the suggestions I have heard so far so that is what I will do I have some thyroid-S coming in the post. I really hope the adrenal glandular works for me when I get around to trying it soon - but I will just do everything very slowly and try and work out WHEN the best time to add thyroid-s would be. Which im thinking might be a little tricky but ill see how it goes
I saw Barry a few years ago just before he went out of practice. He started me on 600mg of nutri adrenal and was then going to implement the thyroid. Sadly, he went out of practice before o got to my follow up appointment. I was left with nothing but his book to guide me but I can safely say I owe my life to him. I followed the information in his book and it became my bible. I self sourced bovine NDT and dose my symptoms and temps/hr and gradually got very very well.
If you have had little success with NDT, I could bet my life on it being cortisol. I became unwell again last year (multiple factors) and tried to get on armour without cortex due to my Endo not using them. I became very unwell, completely suicidal and I am convinced I was close to an adrenal crisis. Again, I followed Barry’s advice and got back on the cortex and have realised it is essential for me to be able to metabolise my thyroid meds.
You can check if it’s your adrenals by doing your DATS (daily average temp) and the method can be found on the sttm website x
Wow thank you. Just to clarify, is this Adrenal Cortex you're referencing and not the whole glandular? I forgot to mention - you are right; i had my cortisol tested in 2020 and my waking cortisol was right at the bottom of the range. Thats why i've ordered another testing kit recently because im just done feeling crap. As for temps, before i broke my thermometer swinging it in a sock to shake it down....😂 (waiting for a new one in the post) my temps through the day fluctuated. Every 3 hrs i alternated between 36.7 to 36.8c. Sometimes i would be 37c. But first thing in the morning after waking at rest i was always 35.8c or 35.9c before getting out of bed.
Did you dose the adrenal once a day or multiple by the way? Sounds like it worked really well for you and i might be similar - as thyroid did not move the scale even slightly. Both literally and figuratively 😂
I took adrenal cortex as prescribed by Dr P for a few weeks prior to starting Metavive and continued until recently, gradually weaning myself off. On occasions when cortex was unavailable I used small doses of the whole gland and couldn’t feel a difference, though that’s not to say there wasn’t a difference
So far, without adrenal glandulars, adrenals seem to be holding up. I have an old test kit here waiting to be used but it’s a bit of a faff so I’ve put it off for months
I made the mistake of ignoring his advice to get nutrient levels checked because I have an exemplary diet and smugly thought that nothing would be wrong in that area. Couldn’t have been more wrong, everything was wrong
To save time and money in the long term, think about prioritising testing. Make a case to your GP for the basics and then supplement accordingly. I always remind my GP that due to poor absorption of food nutrients I need to supplement and therefore it’s important I test the basics regularly to ensure I’m not over/under supplementing. When budget allows you can do the rest privately
If you’ve ordered the correct cortisol test that will give a good indication of what’s going on with your adrenals
Thanks for the info! Were you also taking Adrenavive from the same company, and what did your dose & schedule look like? I really wish I could get all my nutrients tested. I try to eat " intuitively " as best I can WITHOUT restricting anything, but I am on the lower end when it comes to Vitamin D as you might have seen on one of my other posts. A quality multivitamin that has a decent amount of nutrients without mega-doses would be really nice, including at least 2,000iu D, but unfortunately it doesn't exist from my research. Pure Encapsulations comes pretty close, with 2k iu D, but close to no K2, and very high amounts of chromium which might not be ideal in the long run. So I think buying individual vitamins to complement a multi- is the answer, but means paying more 👎 which I believe is 100% a product of design rather than happy accident for the supplement manufacturers
I started on the lowest dose morning and lunchtime for 2 - 3 week, gradually increasing and then commenced with Metavive. I took adrenavive for 5 years with occasional weeks off here and there but recently I decided to trial a longer period without it with a view to staying off permanently.
It’s been about 3 months now, which is early days but I must do the test to see what, if anything has changed
Re supps, I found that although Metabolics liquid products look expensive, if you buy the 250mls bottles and refrigerate them they last months and work out much more cost-effective long term and therefore more sustainable, so you won’t need to be chopping and changing, always looking for something cheaper and since you should only really start one supplement at a time to ascertain how you get on with it, your initial outlay is for one product only and then adding to it as and when you can afford to. By buying the 250/500ml bottles I’m able to split the cost with friends and family. Also, the liquid versions contain no additives which for me is very important and are supplied with a 100ml glass bottle and dropper to decant smaller quantities into
At first I used their D3/K2 product and got my levels very high but when SeasideSusie spoke about vega vero brand’s better ratio, I switched and have maintained very good levels
I started on the lowest dose morning and lunchtime for 2 - 3 week, gradually increasing and then commenced with Metavive. I took adrenavive for 5 years with occasional weeks off here and there but recently I decided to trial a longer period without it with a view to staying off permanently.
How did you know you had reached a good dose of adrenavive, before adding in Metavive?
The rationale was that after a few weeks of assistance with adrenavive cortex, my body would probably be able to cope with the introduction of a small amount of Metavive, and it did. I continued with both thereafter
Physically there was no discernible difference because despite - by the time I saw Dr P - having had chronic insomnia for 15 years - I felt well and always have so I didn’t notice any particular “wellness” changes except my hair loss halted. It was my mental state that had taken quite a hit. I’d become increasingly irrational and difficult to live with and panic attacks became a thing. I was no longer the optimistic, happy person I’d always been. It was a weird time
Happily, the change in my mental state was quick and quite remarkable. I feel lucky
So, to answer your question. My mental equilibrium began to change for the better within weeks but I can’t help you with the physical part except to say that lab reports were favourable
Take a look at STTM website and latest book gives in-depth help on using adrenal cortex/adaptions to support adrenals. You’d need a 4 point saliva test first to see your cortisol highs and lows etc to work out when to take what - IF that’s yoir issue. It’s not a straight forward process, but worth it if it’s cortisol issues you’re dealing with. Iron, b12 and number of other things can affect effectiveness too - plus, have you also checked rt3?
There’s no easy way to approach it I’m afraid, you’ll have to do some serious testing first. Best of luck.
Thanks!The last time I had my cortisol tested, it was low immediately after waking, then high at noon. I have ordered another saliva testing kit recently to see what my levels are at now.
Did you have any cortisol issues you used STTM to overcome? I have not bought any books from Janie but have read some of the texts on her website, and I found them helpful.
Adrenal Cortex helped with energy and stress- first I used the UK one at 125mg then changed to Thorne's ACE 50 mg : one in morning and one around 1 - 2 pm Hope this helps
Yes, I have very low x3 and high at bedtime. So I’m on adrenal cortex and then lowering adaptions at nighttime. I’m a bit of a complex case as I’ve an ME diagnosis and untreated aldosterone issues (according to SSTM I need Florinef) but my endo says that while I’m low, I’m not low enough! The adrenal cortex has enabled me to go higher with my t3 (I was on levo bit made me bedridden with rt3) as I couldn’t go over 50 mcg without having adrenal issues. I’m now on 70 mcg and just at top of ft3 range which is considered ‘optimal’ when on t3 only. I read the book to really get my head around things and then use another Facebook group - TAWKI Thyroid as we know it, that follows STTM, for continual support. It’s a really strict group, but for good reason. I’m currently stuck due to my aldosterone issues, but there are lots of people who do well on adrenal support with ndt or t3.
I tried lots of different ones - best was a US brand that can no longer sold to the UK. Adrenavive was the next best thing. I take Adrenavive II which is cortex - cortex worked better for me than whole adrenal. Noticed difference in about a week when I first started original US brand
I share your curiosity about glandulars, and have recently trialled them for myself.
But baby steps. I should say that, while I have many of the symptoms of hypothyroidism there is no way that any harried conventional doctor would likely provide that diagnosis, as my tests drop within their ranges. And it had certainly not occurred to any of my cardiologists to deduce a thyroid connection even when my tests dropped outside normal. Because they don't take a holistic view, it's all siloed and to a 'child with a hammer...'.
I got into adrenal natural glandular (NutriCology) originally as an adjunct to mercury detox, because it is a recommended preamble to the Cutler protocol, as the adrenals are 'upstream' of the thyroid.
However, the wider picture is that I have been dogged by lone atrial fibrillation for at least 14 years. And keen to cover all the bases. Including thyroid issues - a known cause of AF. Because LAF is a diagnosis of exclusion (it is 'idiopathic' which is ancient Greek or doctor-speak for 'search us'). I have taken it as an alarm call. And prefer to avoid a medical 'Whac-A-Mole' re-run of ablation, to knock the 'alarm' off again, at least before I have checked out whether there is some other underlying 'fire'.
Which is a long way of saying that even at a dose of one or two capsules a day, and over just a few weeks, I have noticed a marked improvement in a number of important ways coincident with taking adrenal and thyroid glandulars. However, there are very many variables, and I am keen not to attribute cause where they may just be conjunction.
Though I did have good cause along the way to rediscover Dr Sarah Myhill, and particularly her new book, which I commend to you: amazon.co.uk/Underactive-Th....
I have no more association with her today than having been a patient for a short time a decade ago, because my whole metabolism seemed to be going slow. But I think her book should be the bible to anybody on this forum. It consolidates much of her work that, commendably, is often already available online.
The bottom line is that if you are not also willing to embrace at least some semblance of a paleo-ketogenic diet, then forget it. Everything else is dabbling. Harsh but probably true.
Most of the problems we all have derive from putting the wrong fuel in our tanks. Just like filling your petrol engine with diesel. If you foster bacterial overgrowth and a fermenting gut by eating carbs and foods that promote inflammation, then you will get into a vicious circle of vitamin malabsorption and deleterious effects on your entire metabolism, including your adrenals, thyroid, and vital mitochondria - which is where all our energy comes from.
Things can go very wrong in our cells before it turns up in our bloods. Testing the 'gravy' does not tell you a lot about your Sunday roast, anymore than testing the custard tells you about your pudding. Blood cells don't have mitochondria, if they did they would gobble up all the oxygen they carry long before it got where its supposed to go.
Many people on this forum have lost their thyroid or have clear evidence of thyroid autoimmune or other severe issues with conversion of T4 to T3 etc.. But many others are below the radar in conventional medical terms. And thyroid diagnosis and treatment is something of a Cinderella activity. Not well done, even if you can find a Prince Charming, and the shoe fits! You are more likely to be rewarded with Prozac than a T3 scrip from a GP if you persist.
Therefore, Dr Myhill's view is that, for the most part, we'll just have to sort it ourselves. Not because she doesn't encourage us to seek proper professional help, far from it. It's just because she has reason to know that, until there is an epiphany, help will not be forthcoming.
To her way of thinking, our diet is the fuel, our mitochondria the engine, our adrenals the gearbox, and our thyroid the accelerator. Or something like that! It's a system. There is no 'quick fix'. And there is an order to setting it all to rights when it is out of whack.
Do read the book. It provides a feel for how it all fits together. There is a bigger story to be written about how systematically failing to get real and nip our problems in the bud simply fosters far more serious outcomes. It is not a welcome message but that doesn't make it wrong.
She encourages a trial of glandulars only after we have made some attempt to get the other basics right. It's obvious really. You cannot build on shaky foundations. Not least because, if you do, you'll never know whether its your construction or the underlying which is at fault.
Anyway, she is far more eloquent about all this than me, and better qualified. I think you'll find it well worth checking out her well-referenced and very readable work. Not least because, after an extensive search, I found her shop the best place to get Metavive II in the UK.
Ha Ha, yes, I think we have all been around that diet mulberry bush, or prickly pear. The trouble is there is just too much advice. And yet not so much we can seem to hang our hat on in the prescence of a compelling donut, or whatever it is that any beverage is simply too wet without.
Which is why it is vital we grasp a valid, joined-up take on all this, from someone who is properly qualified to know what she is talking about, and also gives a toss.
Apparently, Dr Myhill has a T-Shirt with '38-0' on it. Attesting to the number of times she has been hauled before the General Medical Council, only to be exonerated. Not least because, as one subject access request revealed, the prosecuting barrister bemoaned that not only could they not find she had ever done a patient harm, but none of hers would testify against her. QED.
Thank you, I am comparatively lucky with my lone paroxysmal AF because I am not that symptomatic. But I would far rather be in sinus rhythm. Whereas, to a medical turn of mind, whether rhythm or rate is controlled is irrelevant - to likelihood of death that is, not QoL. And I even had to get a TIA before I got the anticoagulant I had requested (medical doctrine on this having done a complete 180, despite the alternatives to Warfarin having improved).
So, AF for me is just like: Gilbert's, elevated cholesterol, dry skin, hairloss, absence of the outer third of my eyebrows, bradycardia (38 bpm), hypotension, low temperature, social withdrawal etc., just another potentially hypothyroid sign being ignored, because my bloods look OK.
Whereas, before the advent of thyroid blood tests, elevated cholesterol alone would have given rise to suspicion of hypothyroidism.
And it is not impossible that all of these signs and symptoms are merely indicative of the British equivalent of SAD, or more broadly, simply our modern lifestyle.
So, it is not a stretch to imagine that suddenly (in historical terms) stuffing refined sugars etc., in abundance down a gut that is a hybrid of a carnivore and herbivore's, unused to such riches, is where we all go astray. And having some other dysfunction (as we all do) just mutually exacerbates matters.
The medical profession is only just waking up to the gut-brain link, as the US FDA Commissioner attested (among other things) just yesterday: cnbc.com/2023/04/11/us-life.... And, in my own quest to make sense of things, in terms of 'misinformation', I think Dr Myhill is at least on the side of the angels.
No doubt some of us are here primarily because we have some obvious thyroid pathology. But many more will be here because we have got trapped in some vicious circle, of which thyroid (and adrenal) dysfunction is just part.
So, I figure, pay attention, get the fuel right. Cut the stress and sooth the adrenals. Support the mitochondria with supplements, when you're sure you're not just feeding the wrong bacteria. Then gee up the thyroid a bit and see if that restores a better overall equilibrium, and eliminates some of the adverse stuff.
Presently, we may have to do that with OTC glandulars and iodine - before interested parties succeed in putting them beyond our reach and sentencing us to something more serious.
For some, it may not even be a life-sentence, if caught in time. But no donuts...
hey!! No my temps shot up and we’re very unstable throughout the day, I think they were around 37 which confused the hell out of me. They would swing around which is a sign adrenal support is needed. For some, they will have a different reaction and just remain very hypo with low temps.
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I have some thyroid-S coming in the post. I really hope the adrenal glandular works for me when I get around to trying it soon - but I will just do everything very slowly and try and work out WHEN the best time to add thyroid-s would be. Which im thinking might be a little tricky but ill see how it goes
adrenal cortex extract (ACE)
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