Cortisol and insomnia

[Mikegov]

Hi,

I was diagnosed with Hashimotos a few years back, am currently self-treating using T3 only. Have slowly got back my health back but still having a problem with insomnia.

Have no problems in falling asleep about 10:30-11, but invariably wake up at around 3-3:30 and can be a couple of hours before I can get back to sleep, if at all.

My sleep routine is pretty good (I think), sleep with a eye mask, in a darkened room, no reading phone before bed and always take magnesium and zinc as part of my supplements.

Have tried a number of things to help with the insomnia, Nytol, meditation, melatonin, having a protein and fat meal before bed, taking all my T3 medication before bed, CT3M method but no joy.

I'm wondering if high cortisol could be causing the issue. I have the following saliva test results

Cortisol Levels

Sample 1 Post Awakening 13.73 (7.45-32.56)

Sample 2 (+4 - 5 hours) 4.16 (2.76-11.31)

Sample 3 (+4 - 5 hours) 5.25 (1.38-7.45)

Sample 4 (Prior to Sleep) 3.68 (0.83-3.86)

Sum of Cortisol 26.8

DHEA Levels

DHEA Mean 0.75

DHEA: Cortisol Ratio 0.088 (0.015-0.150)

DHEA Sample 1 (am) 1.21 (0.25-2.22)

DHEA Sample 2 (pm) 0.28 (0.25-2.22)

Melatonin Samples

Sample 1 (07:00AM - 09:00AM) 1.40 (<=10.50)

Sample 2 (3:00PM-5:00PM) <0.5 (<=0.88)

Sample 3 (2:30AM - 3:30AM) 3.46 (2.53 - 30.67)

Does anything from the test results suggest something that may be causing the insomnia?

Many thanks

Mike

[BShankly]

Hi Mike.

Sorry to hear you suffering a bit.

I've just started adding T3 to my T4. It's only been a few days and whilst I'm falling asleep quickly, I'm waking up at 4am every morning... I'm also dreaming a lot.

I'm putting it down to a period of adjustment but cortisol levels have crossed my mind.

Best

B.

[Lalatoot in reply to BShankly]

The natural rhythm of t3 is to peak at 4am.. Don't know if this is significant.

I too used to wake around 4am.

[BShankly in reply to Lalatoot]

Thanks Lalatoot , have you found a way to get over this?

B

[Lalatoot in reply to BShankly]

I take 5mcg lio at bedtime and generally am OK now.

[RedApple]

Mikegov, 'having a protein and fat meal before bed'

You could try having a small amount of carbs instead. Not sugary things like chocolate, just plain simple carbs like cream crackers or savoury oat biscuits.

psychologytoday.com/gb/blog...

[humanbean]

I'm too tired to do this for you tonight, but you can analyse your own cortisol output as I did for someone else a few days ago :

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

Hope this helps.

[Mikegov in reply to humanbean]

Thanks for the links, interesting to see how to interpret the cortisol readings - obviously I have a way to go in improving adrenal health. I have taken Adrenavive for over 2 years now and have followed Dr Ps regime of vitamins and minerals since being diagnosed.

Apart from improving adrenal health would taking Holy Basil be beneficial in lowering cortisol at night?

Mike

[humanbean in reply to Mikegov]

I wouldn't recommend Holy Basil for you. Your cortisol is too low for the first two samples, and you can't guarantee that any effect of the Holy Basil will affect only the level at bedtime.

Instead I would suggest that you do what you can to improve your cortisol earlier in the day. If you can do that successfully your bedtime cortisol will reduce by itself. You mention having taken an adrenal glandular for over 2 years, perhaps you should try a different brand to see if it helps.

Do you take an adrenal cocktail first thing in the morning? If you haven't tried it then it is worth the experiment I think. You can take a second one later in the morning if you want.

Having read quite a lot of results for saliva cortisol tests over the last few years I am aware that cortisol usually tends to drop in a fairly standard pattern, although there are always exceptions.

The stage numbers I use are my own, they don't match anything official.

Stage 0 - Completely healthy - The output of cortisol follows a good circadian rhythm.

Stage 1 - Just starting to struggle - Output of cortisol starts to drop for sample 1, but the body keeps trying to make up the difference and sample 2 rises to (almost) make up the difference. Samples 3 and 4 are still optimal or very close to it.

Stage 2 - Struggling more - Output of cortisol drops even further for sample 1, and sample 2 may rise way above optimal. Sample 3 may rise a little bit.

Stage 3 - Sample 1 could be close to bottom of range, sample 2 starts to drop below optimal, sample 3 starts to rise dramatically, because the body is still trying to make up for the lack of cortisol earlier in the day...

You can see the pattern that develops... Eventually, all of samples 1 - 3 are well below optimal and the only one that is high is sample 4 which gives people intractable insomnia, and then that falls too, and the patient is really stuffed.

The only way to reliably reduce your bedtime cortisol is to improve your cortisol earlier in the day.

You could try and find supplements that raise cortisol, but of course supplements rarely have just one effect and you might not want the other effects. I only know of one supplement that raises cortisol and that is 5-HTP which is an over-the-counter anti-depressant. Most people will take 5-HTP for its anti-depressant effects, not for its effect in raising cortisol - but you get both effects whether you want them or not. And the cortisol-raising effect of 5-HTP is almost never mentioned because it is taken as an anti-depressant. Finding supplements to raise cortisol could be quite difficult because you'd probably be looking for a side effect rather than the main effect, if you see what I mean.

I have high cortisol, and I take 5-HTP for mild depression. I've had to keep my dose very low because I can't cope with the raised cortisol that comes with it.

...

There is a member on the forum called McPammy who had very, very low levels of cortisol and her cortisol raised itself when she started taking T3. Read her replies on this thread:

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

...

What kind of diet do you eat? Do you eat breakfast? I think lots of people with poor thyroid function gain weight and then end up half starving themselves in an effort to lose weight which refuses to budge. You really need to make sure you eat enough protein and fat. The human body can survive without carbs - they are not essential nutrients. But nobody can survive without fat and protein.

And lots of vitamin C is useful too.

Good luck.

[suztango]

Hi, if you have low cortisol, then try CT3M:

paulrobinsonthyroid.com/why...

T3 during the day can cause low T3 in the night - because of the short half life. This means that when your body needs it for the process of creating cortisol, it cant. Results in low cortisol. Low cortisol can mean higher adrenaline which can result in insomnia. I know - I’ve been there!

[Localhero in reply to suztango]

That is so interesting. Did you adopt CT3? Did this change things for you? I’m asking as I too have recently been prescribed T3 but am also having the 3am wake up situation!

[suztango in reply to Localhero]

When I started T3 my insomnia took on a another level of horribleness! Almost immediately after starting CT3M i started to sleep a lot better. So yes it has definitely made a difference to me.

For me now, I am on a high CT3M dose (30mcg) and taking it at the maximum time of 4 hours before waking, but am still groggy in the mornings (low cortisol symptoms) so I m now investigating whether my adrenals are working correctly, or if I have a pituitary issue. I took a synacthen test a year and a half ago and was told by 2 endos that I had passed. Looking back at the results, I noticed that the peak should have been higher, so maybe I didn’t pass after all. I think I need to repeat the test. I will be interesting to do this now as I am on CT3M, and so my adrenals are being supported the best they can be.

I am a complicated case as I also have B12 deficiency (on injections) and a lot of the symptoms overlap. It has taken time to unravel what is what.

[Localhero in reply to suztango]

Thanks for replying and at such length.

It’s good to know you’re sleeping better doing CT3M. But I feel your pain on these other issues. It seems that, just as we think we’ve resolved one problem, something else appears!

[Smee1961]

Hi Like you I have suffered the same for 20 years and the daytime fatigue associated with lack of sleep. Also anxiety during the day without even realising it. I am a strong professional woman who was slowly dissolving into a complete wreck. I was taking all sensible precautions reg routine, face mask magnesium meditation etc to no avail. My husband my a serious accident and my doctor suggested that I had reactionary depression and with reluctance I started citalopram . The anxiety was virtually gone straight away and with in a month my sleep was reinstated and I actually wake up refreshed. I wonder if my thyroid problems had actually been affect ing my sleep for years. I am like a new woman 😉

[Arabella33]

Hi Mike, the optimal ranges for cortisol For most people should be:

Very top of range

Top quarter

Mid range

Very bottom of range

Looks like yours is a bit upside down. You can start with the ct3m certainly and there is adrenal cortex and hc but must be down carefully.

Out of interest, I have just started t3 only. Did it resolve your brain fog ?

Best of luck

[Bifocle]

Hi Mike -

Your insomnia story is very similar to mine. Years of insomnia that gradually got worse and worse, with the same pattern of 3:00 am wakefulness, frequently wide awake and wired the rest of the night and finally falling asleep around 5:30. I was living, if you can call it that, on four to six hours of sleep a night. And yes, I tried everything - warm milk, sleeping mask, ear plugs, hot showers, sleeping pills when I was really desperate.

This year I was diagnosed with adrenal insufficiency. My sleep returned immediately once I started taking hydrocortisone - a miracle! And somewhat counterintuitive, I still don’t really understand the mechanism but it worked for me. Are you, or have you been, on any steroid medication in the past? If so, ask for an AM cortisol test (the saliva tests are not very accurate). I was on a low dose inhaled steroid and told there was no way I should have adrenal insufficiency, but here I am.

I think you might be on the right track - good luck and I hope you find the solution soon. I can sympathize!

[Hashi-hacker]

Hi,

I struggle with this too although I am much better than I used to be. I take high doses of Vitamin C which is supposedly 'food for the adrenals', about 2000mg a day plus the Zinc (and copper) and Magnesium that you take.

I used to take L-theanine and 5HTP at night and in the morning respectively, which you might want to look into, it's meant to help with stress, sleep and anxiety.

Here's another resource that might help...hypnosisdownloads.com/sleep....

It doesn't take many nights of poor sleep to erode your spirit, I trust you find something that works for you x

[Liyaelize in reply to Hashi-hacker]

Vitamin C lowers my cortisol and then I wake up often at night.

[Liyaelize]

I found taking about a quarter of my 5 mcg T3 should I wake up that time of the morning helps me to go back to sleep. I keep a few tablets cut into quarters next to my bed. Use a very small dose of NDT if on NDT

[DisneyMuse]

hey, Mike ... just happened to catch your subject line and though I'm not reading everything and not keeping up in the groups, wanted to just throw in this brief bit of info in case it helps:

We know insomnia can be caused by different things. Mine is NOT under control, but I'm also still not actively working on changing things that could help. I purchased a book called THE ADRENAL RESET DIET by Alan Christianson, NMD. The only thing I tried---briefly (as is my unfortunate way due to lifestyle and other issues)---was the diet. I didn't do the whole "sleep shift" cycling. Just the diet and for the days I did it, it seemed to help. It's basic premise is how you distribute eating carbs, starting very low in the morning and increasing with meals through the day. Anyway, you might want to check that out.

Also, EMFs can really affect the brain and sleep. Reduce your exposure to blue screens and digital a good 2 hours before bedtime and that may help too.

Good luck!

Donna