11/7/19 As usual GP stated I was normal not a ... - Thyroid UK

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11/7/19 As usual GP stated I was normal not a surprise, also no labs on my Vitamins? Bpm resting 67 - any kind of activity 156 in a flash!

Milagroscrs615
Milagroscrs615
111 Replies

So I will have to go in Jan 2020 for Vitamin and A1C fasting test. I along with some of you on here am experiencing rapid heart beat, when I walk or do daily chores it goes for 67 to 156, really fast! my GP insist not my thyroid meds since I am on a low dose of amour thyroid, and according to her in perfect range. In spite of that I continue to insist I am still having issues with my heart rate I sleep 4-6 hrs when I can fall asleep wake up with racing heart then have to meditate back to sleep. It’s a vicious cycle. Therefor I asked to be referred to a cardiologist since my dad passed at 67 of a heart attack, and my brother who is two years older than me 63 has 4 stents in his heart. I have not had a problem with My heart rate before taking meds for Hashimotos disease. Now I have to rule that out. GP prescribed a beta blocker metoprolol 25 mg 1/2 am 1/2 pm which I am not sure I’ll take until I hear it from the cardiologist. I am so frustrated with the heart racing crap drs seem to know nothing about, they don’t even want to hear you it’s enough to make you you want to bust! Thank God I have self control. I wish I had the answers to why our heart rates are being so affected, it happened with the levo 75 but in a different way excessive sweating, when I switched to Amour thyroid 60 mcg my heart rate sky rocketed, I Lowered to 45 mcg and now I can’t have a decent nights sleep! Drs can’t even find my veins to draw my blood! Oh and she keeps telling its anxiety, she already knows I’ve been seeing a psychiatrist for 13 yrs and on meds. Nothing I say is right. I will see my cardiologist and if it’s not my heart I definitely will not see her again. Thank you for listening and any thoughts much appreciated.

Test results 10/23/19 -GP seen on 11/7/19

Milagroscrs615

Hello everyone I just go my blood work results and wondering if anyone can take a look and tell me what they think? My TSH looks optimal. And so does my T F 4, although I think my TF 4 should be a lil higher because times I feel hyperthyroid, my T F 3 looks on the lower side.

TSH 2.30 range 2.3-4.2

TF4 1.0 Range 0.8-1.8

TF3 2.9 Range 2.3-4.2

TPO 7 Range <9

Thyroid globulin <1 Range <0r=1 IU/ML

I have Hashimotos disease a know that 50% of people who have this disease ranges may not show up so even though last two ranges are showing I am clear I know I still have this disease. My question is that although these test seem like They are in range according to my Dr! I do experience a fast heart rate especially while in bed ready to sleep, still have some insomnia, and still very constipated this is why I feel maybe my TF4 should be a little higher. I would appreciate any thoughts. Thank you in advance. I am taking adaptenall to lower cortisol levels, 5K vitamin D, 2k vitamin B12 still waiting for the vitamin test. I am also diabetic and feel sometimes I loss control of my numbers. Meaning my sugar jumps high easily. I have been gluten Free for two months and currently on Amour thyroid 45 mcg. Thank you for taking the time to read any thoughts, I would appreciate it.

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shaws
shawsAdministrator

TSH 2.30 range 2.3-4.2 - Too high, if you're already taking levothyroxine.

TF4 1.0 Range 0.8-1.8 - this is near bottom of range.

TF3 2.9 Range 2.3-4.2 - this is also bottom of the range - should be nearer 4.

TPO 7 Range <9

I am not medically qualified but I think your FT3 is too low and as it is T3 which runs our whole system, your heart may be struggling, thus the higher heart rate.

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Milagroscrs615

I am only on Amour since feb 2019 first 60 mcg and last three months 45 mcg. Greyhoose told me the same as you, I am just sharing my frustration GPS just don’t want to hear it I am struggling to sleep, and then feel like crap durning the day. When I get ready for bed 🛌 I am back to the rapid heart beat I told her about the the T 3 being too low. They just want you to walk in sit down tell you what they know and won’t hear what you feel. I am so sick of it here in Florida I lived in NYC all my life worked in a hospital for 28 years medicine was nothing like this here! I had drs for 10-20 yrs who worked with me here it’s a disgrace. Being I know the field and I am assertive they say I am aggressive. I will go to the cardiologist because heart disease runs in my family and I’d like to know for myself. Once I am confirmed either way she will never she me again! Thank you for getting back to me Shaws I hope you are well. Much appreciated !

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shaws
shawsAdministrator
in reply to Milagroscrs615

I'm sorry you feel so bad. I note also that you are in Florida and Thyroiduk.org.uk had a wonderful, sympathetic doctor (now deceased through an accident) who lived in Florida and he invented his own NDT so that it would not need a prescription and his widow now deals with this part of the busines. I shall give you a link - just in case and am sure that Tammy will be helpful too although she's not medically qualified I believe.

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/relate...

naturalthyroidsolutions.com...

Dr Lowe even resigned his Licence so that he could still help people recover and not be brought before an Organisation who didn't approve of his method of healing.

naturalthyroidsolutions.com...

p..s. also it is important to make sure your heart has no problems.

Everthing in our body depends upon thyroid hormones to run our whole metabolism and the brain and heart need the most. (levothyroxine is T4 alone and has to convert to T3 and it is T3 which is the 'active thyroid hormone' and T4 is an inactive hormone and Dr Lowe would never prescribe it at all.

Thankfully, I am well now as long as I'm able to source my own as the UK will no longer prescribe T3 - due to its exorbitant cost.

naturalthyroidsolutions.com...

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you Shaws I will check my heart and thank for the information I will up load it and read it and will follow up! I appreciate it

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shaws
shawsAdministrator
in reply to Milagroscrs615

This is another excellent link:

hormonerestoration.com/Thyr...

We have to do our own research and try to find out what some of the 'professionals' seem not to understand.

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you Shaws will read! I appreciate it have a great day 🙏

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Milagroscrs615

Indeed I agree with you 110%

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Milagroscrs615

You guys are amazing I give you a lot of credit for all you do and for making a difference and changing the course of someone’s life when they have no clue what’s going on. Wishing you all health and peace 🙏

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Milagroscrs615

Meanwhile my 45 mcg is broken down like this T 4 -25 mcg and T 3 7 mcg lol

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Milagroscrs615

Shaws what a shame this doctor is gone I am going to sit at my computer and go thru as much as I can about him, thank you for sharing him with me, I will share with other people in need! He’s Brilliant a light gone out to soon 🙏

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janeroar
janeroar
in reply to shaws

Thanks for sharing this shaws. Amazing.

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Milagroscrs615

How can I raise my T F 3? And I don’t know but it seems weird to me that my TF4 is always 1.0 that doesn’t seem to change? Any thoughts I think your right because when I top the amour before my blood work I felt great! No racing heart but as soon as I took it boom my body reacts to it quick lol!

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shaws
shawsAdministrator
in reply to Milagroscrs615

To raise FT3 you either have to increase levo or whatever other hormone replacement you take. Slowly...........

If you get palpitations that could be due to either being on too high (or too low) a dose. So it is a fine line at times. Some people don't convert levo into sufficient T3 and a number of researchers have proven that a combination of T4/T3 can work for many hypo patients.

The majority of doctors seem to believe that once the TSH is in 'normal' range we're on a sufficient dose (that's not true if we have continuing symptoms) and do not increase dose, neither do they test the Frees (T4 and T3) very often, especially if we still complain.

They also seem to believe that a low TSH (below 1) means we've become hyPERthyroid and adjust dose down. This usually makes us feel worse.

Due to Dr Lowe's early demise, his website was closed and it had stacks of worthwhile information.

This is another 'good' doctor:-

hormonerestoration.com/

hormonerestoration.com/Thyr...

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you for this information it’s very much appreciated 🙏

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Milagroscrs615

It’s amazes me that all of you know more than the doctors wow. You should see how smug the drs are here and they don’t have a clue GPS don’t want to know it too much work to know! The endocrinologist sit in the ivory towers reading your labs and that it’s absurd!

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shaws
shawsAdministrator
in reply to Milagroscrs615

It comes as a huge surprise that initially doctors do not know one clinical symptom.

Before blood tests were introduced we were all diagnosed upon our clinical symptoms and given a trial of 'natural dessicated thyroid hormones'. No blood tests and if we felt an improvement dose was gradually increased - until all were relieved, and we felt our health was restored. We were prescribed NDT then (natural dessicated thyroid hormones which contained T4, T3, T2, T1 and calictonin and made from pigs' thyroid glands. That was in 1892 and no-one died from then on. Big pharma saw a good way to make profits by introducing levothyroxine (T4 alone and many do o.k. on it and they wont be on this forum).

I had to diagnose myself after a while after an operation which I was told due to me complaining about feeling desperately ill and sore throat. He diagnosed me with a 'web' and told me I'd choke to death if I didn't have an op. I went ahead but he didn't come to see me - which is usual after an op. So I went home feeling absolutely awful. It was the following week I consulted him and was told I didn't have a 'web' !!! What was on the barium swallow I asked. He couldn't respond. It was only months later I diagnosed myself and TSH was 100.

p.s. many thousands do o.k. on levothyroxine but those on this forum don't seem to, although there must be a few.

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Milagroscrs615

Wow that is absurd, every time you are exposed to anesthesia you are at risk anything can happen, if doctors are not thorough that is a nightmare. It must have been so difficult for you my heart goes out to you. Things like this should not be happening and I feel a real urgency to get on this train and be heard! Soon as I can move around with my heart trying to bust out of my chest! Thank god I know talking is not enough it’s doing and keeping people in the know. People need to wake up without your health you have nothing!

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greygoose

I have Hashimotos disease a know that 50% of people who have this disease ranges may not show up so even though last two ranges are showing I am clear I know I still have this disease.

What ranges are you talking about? What is clear? Antibodies? Antibodies fluctuate and there's really no point in retesting once you've had an over-range result. You have Hashi's, and that doesn't go away no matter what your antibodies level because the antibodies are not the disease. So, yes, whatever it is you're talking about not showing up, you do still have this disease.

They are in range according to my Dr!

Well, yes. You don't have to do seven years in med school to see if a result is in-range or not. lol But the point is, just being anywhere in-range is not good enough. Results have to be at the right point in the range for you. That's what doctors cannot seem to get their heads around. Your FT3, I think, would be in the wrong place for 99.9% of hypos. It's too low. Yes, the FT4 is too low, but it's low T3 that causes symptoms. So, it's the FT3 that is the most important number. Yours is saying that you need an increase in dose. You're only on a tiny amount of NDT, so it's not surprising you're under-medicated. And, your TSH is too high for someone on thyroid hormone replacement - especially TSH, where the T3 content tends to lower/suppress the TSH.

So, what about this cortisol, then? Have you posted the results somewhere? When is it high? All day? Or just in the evening? Or what? Taking something like adaptenall can be a bit dodgy. Adaptogens can be unpredictable. I know what they're supposed to do, but the truth is, they don't always do it. I would want to see a 24 hour saliva cortisol test before taking anything, myself.

Did you get your vit D and B12 tested before starting supplementing? How about folate and ferritin?

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Milagroscrs615

Man greygoose she won’t even let me speak on it, saying nothing seems to work for you meanwhile this is the first time I am on amour thyroid, the reason it’s a low dose is because on the 60 mcg it physically couldn’t do anything, if I stop for a few days my heart goes back to normal but I can’t do that because then I become symptomatic, that’s what I tried to tell her.

When I was seeing the endocrinologist last year before her! They use different ranges than the GPS . He said I was perfect according to the labs but I wasn’t I was sweating like a 🐷! Those readings were at me on 75 levo only T 4

This was 11/26/18

TSH 1.52 - range 0.4-4.5

T 4 1.40- range 0.58-1.64

T 3 2.7 - range 2.4-6.8 this is how the endocrinologist sees it but I was melting!!!! Drenched in sweat every second of the day. He did not want to hear it! I never went t back

I saw the GP 3 months later

2/20/19 with no medication from November 2018 The sweating stopped!

My blood work From another GP I saw before her

TSH 3.56 Range 0.4 4.5

T 4 1.1 Range 0.8-1.80

T 3 - 3.1 - Range 2.3-4.2

Went back in April 2019. 30 mcg Amour thyroid

TSH 3.44 Range 0.4-4.5

T 4 1.1 range 0.8-1.80

T 3 -4.3 range 2.3-4.3

I was symptomatic here it was increased to 60 mcg

On 7/17

TSH 1.0 - range 0.4–4.5

T 4 1.0 - range 0.8-1.80

T 3 3.9 - Range 2.3 - 4.2 this is when my heart started Racing and the insomnia kicked in! They left me on 60 mcg

On 8/16

TSH 1.84

T 4 1.0

T 3 2.7 ranges same as above

Here I requested meds be lowered to 45 mcg and I couldnt deal with the heart racing couldn’t do anything.

Came back 10/23/19

TSH 2.30

T 4 1.0

T 3 2.9 same ranges as above

Out of all of this the one on 2/20/19 was the only one not normal

Everything thing else was normal no matter what I said or say. According to the GP

In a nutshell

Yes I took the cortisol test it’s posted on here and yes she gave me the adaptenal supplement and it’s not working wasted money! I told her why are you not doing my vitamins you increase my dose how I am I supposed to know if my levels are good if you haven’t tested since February? So now she ordered them for January. I am going to get that done for my self hell with her! I know you know this frustration we all feel it. I feel like I am going write my Congress woman and bring some awareness to what is going on with those of us with thyroid disease. There’s not enough attention paid by the GPS and the endocrinologist want you on levo that’s all nothing else. It’s insane. I am not use to this thank you for listening and your help. I appreciate it .

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greygoose

Well, NDT doesn't suit everyone. It would appear it possibly doesn't suit you.

TSH 1.52 - range 0.4-4.5

T 4 1.40- range 0.58-1.64

T 3 2.7 - range 2.4-6.8

On 75 mcg levo only, you were under-medicated. Your TSH was too high. Your FT4 was 77.36% through the range, and your FT3 only 6.82%! So, you are a very bad converter. That much is clear. When people are that bad at converting, NDT doesn't contain enough T3 to make them well - there's too much T4. So, the solution is either to add some T3 to the NDT, or to go back to levo + T3.

However, your labs don't really tie up. They seem to go up and down irrespective of your dose. So, do you have Hashi's? With the changing levels and poor conversion, it rather looks like you do. And, NDT is often the wrong treatment for people with Hashi's.

Going to have a search for your adrenal testing. :)

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greygoose
greygoose
in reply to greygoose

OK, so the main problem, as I see it, with your cortisol, is that it's too high at night. So, why not try taking a little Holy Basil at night, to reduce that cortisol level, and leave the rest as it is. It will probably sort itself out when you get your thyroid levels sorted.

I hate these multi-type things. So much stuff rammed into one little pill. Only takes one little thing to disagree with you, and the whole thing becomes useless. So, personally, I would ditch that, and just take the Holy Basil - which isn't even in that multi.

The most important thing, now, is getting those nutrients tested. I think making you wait till January is cruel! They need to be sorted now! NDT will not work for you if you have sub-optimal nutrient levels. But, in the meantime, if I were you, I would start taking some magnesium. Try some magnesium taurate, which is calming for your heart. And vit C. Do you already take any vit C? Adrenals need lots of vit C. But, start low - about 1000 mg - and increase to gut tolerance. Take it in several doses throughout the day. But, don't start the magnesium and the vit C at the same time - leave a gap of about a week between starting them.

I think you should write to your congressman. I think more people should do that. More publicity should be given to the dreadful way we're treated, and the frightening ignorance of doctors that have our lives in their hands.

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you so much for all your words of wisdom I can only imagine the thousands of people you have all helped. I will get the Holy basil any specific mg? I have be taking magnesium since the l read it on here probably from you or another post I saw it sure dose help my GP certainly didn’t tell me about that I read here it makes you relax so yes! I am on that and I bought the K2-mk7 sublingual too! Started that right away. I take a multivitamin woman’s over 50 am over 60 lol. I had a bone density done and that gone there still there haha. I mean it’s good, I have also done a 7 day core cleaning thru the doctors office three months ago and have been on gluten free diet for three months I feel much better digestive wise, I am happy about that. I will find a cardiologist this week and get that out of the way since in runs on my fathers side. Honestly I think it’s the conversion as you said, I don’t take any calcium but I will get some. I am going to get my vitamins checked myself. I’ll pay for it I am not waiting until January! Thank you so much for your help May you get it black triple fold with great health! Once I get this sorted out I am going to take a seat a write a darn good letter to my congresswoman this experience has made me want to be an advocate for people who are suffering. I am already spreading the word and information to my friends and family. Even people I run in to in and out of the doctors office. People have to know what’s going on! To hell with Medicaid for all in the US. I tell people about health care in Canada and the UK they think we got it bad they don’t know 1/4 of the stuff I know on healthCare. A good friend of mine in Manchester lost his girl friend to cancer in the mouth, he told me they destroyed her Poor thing it destroyed him too and they sent her home with half a face. She suffered for 2 years and passed away in June of this year. For him to get mental health services you have to wait months and months it’s insane. Like we are animals. Something has to be done my eyes have been wide open, sometimes it takes a trauma to open your eyes and ears!

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Treepie

The regulars on this site do not recommend multivitamins as they contain too little of anything. Best to find what you are deficient in and supplement specifically.

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greygoose

I take a multivitamin woman’s over 50 am over 60

Sorry, but that's not the right thing to do. You shouldn't be taking a multivitamin anyway for all sorts of reasons.

* If your multi contains iron, it will block the absorption of all the vitamins - you won't absorb a single one! Iron should be taken at least two hours away from any other supplement except vit C, which is necessary to aid absorption of iron, and protect the stomach.

* If your multi also contains calcium, the iron and calcium will bind together and you won't be able to absorb either of them.

* Multi's often contain things you shouldn't take or don't need : calcium, iodine, copper. These things should be tested before supplementing.

* Multi's often contain the cheapest, least absorbable form of the supplement : magnesium oxide, instead of magnesium citrate or one of the other good forms; cyanocobalamin instead of methylcobalamin; folic acid instead of methylfolate; etc. etc. etc.

* Multi's do not contain enough of anything to help a true deficiency, even if you could absorb them.

* When taking several supplements, you should start them individually at two weekly intervals, not all at once as you would with a multi. Because, if you start them all at once, and something doesn't agree with you, you won't know which one it is and you'll be back to square one.

With a multivitamin, you are just throwing your money down the drain, at best, and doing actual harm at worst. Far better to get tested for vit D, vit B12, folate and ferritin, and build up your supplementation program based on the results.

I don’t take any calcium but I will get some.

No, very bad idea. Calcium is not as important for bones as they make out. Magnesium is far more important. And, excess calcium is very bad for a lot of things, bones included. It's rare to be deficient in calcium in the Western World. And, taking vit D increases your absorption of calcium from food. So, the last thing you want to do is take extra calcium on top.

I'm afraid I can't tell you how much Holy Basil to take, but maybe humanbean can help you with that one? :)

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you Greygoose my bad I meant Vitamin C I need that, like you told me yesterday. I have good bone density according to test so I don’t take any calcium sorry about that misunderstanding . I will up load the panel Of what I have I bought it two weeks ago so you can see what it has rather than trying to write down all the vitamins it has all the right ones you mentioned. I looked up the Holy Basil goes from suggested 500 mg per day or 600-1800 in Intervals i have to dig deeper! I was waiting for your reply before I bought I read the herb is better and tea! Thank you once again. I found a cardiologist today now let’s see how long it will take to actually get a call back and an appt!

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greygoose

I will up load the panel Of what I have I bought it two weeks ago so you can see what it has rather than trying to write down all the vitamins it has all the right ones you mentioned.

Is this the multi-vit you're talking about here? It's not just a question of having all the right ones, They aren't the right ones if you don't need them. So, you need to do the tests first before taking anything. It's also a question of how much, and the right type of nutrients - B12, yes, but is it methylcobalamin or cyanocobalamin? Magnesium citrate or magnesium oxide?

Then, most importantly, there is the question of the things it contains that you really do not need. Like calcium, for example. But also iodine and copper. Multis are never, ever a good idea.

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Milagroscrs615

I am going to do that first for sure because I need to know where I am at I can’t wait until January for sure! How do you insert a phot on here? I didn’t know all the different reasons for taking magnesium does that mean I take tatúate for anxiety and citrate for my constipation? I know I sound stupid now. I didn’t know gosh I have so much to learn thanks again!

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greygoose

Well, I suppose you could take two different types of magnesium for different things - but not a full dose of each, split the dose. But, personally, I'd get the constipation sorted first, if that were my problem.

The main reason for taking magnesium is because you need magnesium. It's extremely important for lots of functions in the body. And most people are deficient. But, you can't just have magnesium on its own, it has to be a compound. So, you chose your magnesium according to the properties of the other element its joined to. Like citrate if you suffer from constipation.

You cannot insert a photo into a response. We can only put one photo per thread, and that has to be in the main text at the top. If you click on 'edit' you'll be able to join a photo to your original post. :)

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Milagroscrs615

I see thank you that makes a lot of sense I take the citrate for the constipation I was taking highest dose of Lynsess it worked but it threw me in a donut whole with my insurance I couldn’t afford it, had a colonoscopy nothing so I know it’s my thyroid for sure !

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to greygoose

Hi GG. Usually I agree with you, and indeed you know far more than me about most things thyroid, but not sure about Holy Basil so looked it up.

It does apparently help relaxation but the article says:

webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingre...

"Hypothyroidism: People with hypothyroidism have low levels of the thyroid hormone called thyroxine. Holy basil might lower thyroxine levels. In theory, holy basil might worsen hypothyroidism."

So a slight caution there

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greygoose
greygoose
in reply to Jnetti

Yes, but that should be compensated for by an increase in dose. The important thing here is reducing the night-time cortisol to get a good night's sleep.

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to greygoose

"The important thing here is reducing the night-time cortisol to get a good night's sleep."

I wonder if that's my problem too, though not nearly as bad as many. I get very sleepy late afternoon/early evening, then often hot and wide awake when bedtime comes!

I do get a reasonable amount of sleep most nights, but it isn't quite normal, either going to bed or getting up. sometimes wake up very hot as well with pulse banging in my ears, and impossible to get back to sleep even if it's ridiculously early. As if the normal waking up process is exaggerated.

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greygoose
greygoose
in reply to Jnetti

You'd have to do a 24 hour saliva cortisol test to find out. But, it does sound like it could be.

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to greygoose

Will mention it to the doctor next time. Wonderful to have at last found one who is willing to listen and learn!!!

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greygoose
greygoose
in reply to Jnetti

OK, but you can't get the saliva test on the NHS. You'd only get an 8 am serum test, which won't tell you anything about what goes on at midnight!

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to greygoose

Thanks, didn't know that. Anyway, will see how it goes and if I can afford it this near Christmas!

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JumpJiving

I'd seen magnesium citrate recommended on the forum previously. Does magnesium taurate have additional benefit?

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greygoose

It depends what you want the magnesium to do for you. If you're constipated then magnesium citrate is good. It helps ease the constipation. Magnesium taurate calms the heart and strengthens it. Magnesium malate is best for fatigue. Magnesium chloride for detoxing and magnesium carbonate for indigestion and acid reflux.

The ones you don't want are magnesiums oxide, sulfate, glutimate and aspartate.

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Milagroscrs615

You know I wondered about that conversion if the GP would let me talk maybe I could have addressed that. That was one of my questions for her. Thank you greygoose I believe you are right I am going to find my cortisol

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Milagroscrs615

I do have Hashimotos disease!

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Milagroscrs615

The levo was worse Greygoose trust me I was at a point that I’d be sitting in church and I would be drenched in sweat even with the ac on it was so embarrassing

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Milagroscrs615

I had no life at all, I still don’t as I can’t be in the sun either my heart starts racing i was at the pool once this year in Florida lol! just relaxing under an umbrella and pow my heart rate went up that s when I asked the doctor to put me down to 45 mcg

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greygoose

Yes, because you weren't converting it. Levo with some T3 would be an entirely different matter. Also, you were low in vit D, which would affect your sweating.

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SarahLou30

Have you been checked for postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS)? It requires a tilt table test with a neurologist or cardiologist familiar with dysautonomia.

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you for your reply -and the information I will check Into it. I haven’t I will be scheduling an appt with a cardiologist this week !

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Batty1

I took 2 grains of AT for a year until suddenly my hands started to shake so bad 24/7 I had to stop them and go on a combo 100mcg synthyroid and 10mcg cytomel which I take 50 Synthyroid/ 5mcg Cytomel in early AM and the other 50/5 late Am or early afternoon and my hands stopped shaking and my joint pains aren't as bad.

I believe AT interacted poorly with some of my other medications even though I took things at different times.

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to SarahLou30

Is that yet another symptom of hypothyroidism? If I feel "Hypo-tired" and lie down my heart often seems to start beating harder

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humanbean

I haven't read every word of this thread - it's rather long. But I've noticed a few things that waved red flags at me.

TSH 2.30 range 2.3-4.2

The lower number in that reference range (2.3 - 4.2) is insane, and I simply don't trust it. Is there any chance it is a typo? If it isn't a typo then I wouldn't get thyroid function tests from this lab ever again, if I was in your shoes! And if your doctor didn't pick up on it, and made dosing decisions based on such a dodgy result I'd suggest changing your doctor.

See this thread for more information on TSH in healthy people with no known thyroid disease :

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

The lower number in this reference range (0.4 - 4.5) is far more believable, and most of us would expect to see a reference range something like the one with this result :

TSH 1.52 - range 0.4-4.5

...

You haven't mentioned any results of blood tests for iron, ferritin (iron stores), vitamin B12, vitamin D, folate. All of these affect conversion of T4 to T3. Several of them affect the heart too.

See this list of signs and symptoms of B12 deficiency. Folate is required for the body to make full use of vitamin B12, so both need to be at healthy levels.

b12deficiency.info/signs-an...

...

Low iron and/or ferritin can cause tachycardia (fast heart rate). Search for "iron and tachycardia" for more info on the subject. Low iron can also cause chest pain. See this page for a fairly standard list of symptoms for iron deficiency anaemia - I'm sure you can find many more :

hopkinsmedicine.org/health/...

There is a difference between iron deficiency and iron-deficiency anaemia but both should be treated. Some doctors won't treat iron deficiency but will treat iron-deficiency anaemia. Personally, I think this is sadistic. Iron deficiency without anaemia can make people feel awful, so waiting for the patient to become anaemic before treating is cruel.

Also, be aware that a lot of doctors will only supply prescriptions for iron supplements for one or two months. That may be enough to get results into the reference range for some people (although some doctors don't re-test they just assume) but there are many who can't hang on to iron and who drop out the bottom of the reference ranges or low in the ranges within weeks of stopping their supplements.

In my own case it took nearly two years of supplementing maximum dose iron to get my ferritin up to middle of the range. My serum iron was still low in range. I now take a maintenance dose of iron supplement to keep my ferritin as close to mid-range as I can.

For general info on anaemia (there are lots of possible causes, not just low iron) see this link and the table at the bottom of the page :

irondisorders.org/Websites/...

...

I am also diabetic and feel sometimes I loss control of my numbers. Meaning my sugar jumps high easily.

I'm not diabetic, based on the last blood tests I had done, but my HbA1c results have been uncomfortably close to the pre-diabetic range for some time, so if I'm not careful I will end up diabetic. From personal experience I know that if I eat a tub of ice cream all by myself - something I am perfectly capable of doing! - and obviously raise my blood sugar as a result, then I develop a fast heart rate which I find exhausting and very uncomfortable. There is no mistaking what happens and why it happens, because it happens every time I eat lots of any high-sugar food.

If you have poor control of your blood sugars, have you considered trying to put your diabetes into remission? People have been told for decades that diabetes is a progressive disease and future poor health is inevitable, but it turns out that was wrong and it can be put into remission with a change in diet.

Look into Low Carb, High Fat (LCHF) diets, or Ketogenic (Keto) diets. These are some good links on the subject. I don't have links specific to the US, I'm in the UK, so you'll have to bear that in mind. And always be aware of any mention of units of measurement. Most of the world uses different units of measurement to the US.

dietdoctor.com/

diabetes.co.uk/

diabetes.co.uk/forum/

youtube.com/user/lowcarbdow...

blog.virtahealth.com/revers...

lowcarbusa.org/

lowcarbusa.org/articles/

lowcarbusa.org/papers/

Look up the following people and read some of their articles and watch some of their videos. There are loads more names I could give, but I thought four was enough :

Prof Tim Noakes

Zoe Harcombe

Dr Jason Fung

Nina Teicholz

...

You mentioned cortisol and you are apparently trying to reduce yours. How do you know yours is or was high? Low cortisol and high cortisol have a lot of symptoms in common. It is not possible to decide whether your cortisol is low or high based on symptoms, it must be tested.

Doctors often do only a 9am blood test but it isn't very helpful. The best test is doing a saliva test, giving one sample at four specific times throughout the day. Some tests are sold that suggest doing five or six tests throughout the day, but it really doesn't add any really useful information, four is enough (and cheaper than doing 5 or 6). And you also need to buy a test which includes testing for DHEA as well as cortisol.

See these links for more info on how to get saliva cortisol tested :

stopthethyroidmadness.com/s...

stopthethyroidmadness.com/r...

stopthethyroidmadness.com/l...

With regard to Holy Basil...

This is the one I buy :

swanson.co.uk/p/swanson-ful...

I have never tried any other Holy Basil product.

Each capsule contains 400mg of Holy Basil Leaf. The recommended "serving" is 2 capsules per dose. At the moment it suggests 1 dose (i.e. 2 capsules), twice a day (i.e. 4 capsules in total).

I wouldn't suggest anyone tries Holy Basil until they have tested their cortisol. If it does what it is supposed to do (i.e. lower cortisol) and you already have low cortisol, you will make yourself a lot sicker than you are already.

...

I have no medical training and anything I write is based on my own reading and my own experience.

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Jnetti
Jnetti
in reply to humanbean

Just a caution, on this link it says that Holy Basil might lower thyroid hormones, or at least thyroxine:

webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingre...

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Milagroscrs615

That was a typo should of been 0.4-4.5 sorry about that!

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Milagroscrs615

I took my cortisol test so I know it’s part of the problem it’s high at night, which is why greygoose mentioned Holy Basil. Thank you 🙏

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vocalEK
vocalEK
in reply to humanbean

Low Carb works for reducing blood sugar (and weight). In Sept of 2014, my HgA1C was 6.1 (5.7-6.4% indicates increased risk of diabetes ). I started low carb 2 years ago, and in March of 2018, it was down to 5.9. Still too high, but better. (I wasn't tested in 2015, 16, or 17. ) In December of 2018, it was 5.6 (range <=5.6%. And my most recent test (done yesterday) has me at 5.6. Also, I have lost 15 pounds.

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humanbean
humanbean
in reply to vocalEK

That's great news! I keep trying keto or low carb but my carb addiction keeps getting in the way and I fall by the wayside over and over again.

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Milagroscrs615

It’s hard to give who I love bread sooo much I feel ya!

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aatrom

Although I don't post, I'm always reading, learning and cheering everyone on. In your case, though, I can offer my own little bit of wisdom because of the issues I ran into with NDT.

For a long while I was doing pretty well on NDT - that was, until the dreaded changes in manufacturing happened. Suddenly, my blood pressure and heart rate started sky rocketing for what seemed like no reason. Ended up in ER several times - my heart was in great shape but nothing would ease the anxiety and accelerated BP/HR.

Long story short, what I believe was happening was that the new NDT wasn't giving my body what it needed and adrenaline was kicking in to fill the void. My doctor prescribed T3 until my body settled - which took several months and the short term use of a beta blockers - then just a couple weeks ago my doctor added Tirosint (T4) to my action plan. Now we will work slowly to get both T3 and T4 optimal.

Right now I'm thankfully on the mend, no high BP or HR (on a blood pressure med but no more beta blockers, thank God!) Even though there's room to grow to reach optimal levels I'm feeling a hundred times better than when I was on (what I believe to be) bad NDT.

The whole point of the story is: maybe it's bad NDT causing issues (many many people have had problems since changes have been made to these medications) and it may help you to at least try synthetic T3 and/or T4. I insisted on 'natural' for as long as I could, but feel better on what I'm taking now (Cytomel, Tirosint) than I have in a very long while.

Note: all my issues began with tachycardia on slight exertion, then ballooned into a constant high blood pressure/high heart rate/anxiety nightmare!

I hope my 'little' story helps and that all works out for you soon!

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you for sharing your story with me I really do appreciate it and it’s also great to hear success stories too! I am very happy for you and wish you continued health. I started with the levo T 4 in 2017 the usual 25, 50, 75 even 100 but at 100 I was toxic too much meds. Although endo said I was hyper! It was at 75 levo that I started sweating profusely and became lethargic as I had no desire to be drench all day long everything move I made, made me sweat. According to my labs though en do said I was normal perfect even told me to consult with another endo. I simply never went back. I didn’t agree with him. Then I read about Amour thyroid and saw a GP who also works with hormone issues, so she was open NDT amour thyroid. Endos want you on levo only! With my new doctor I went 30, 60 it’s not been a year yet. At 60 mcg amour that’s when the heart palpitations started and the inability to do my routine chores because of the quick rise in my bpm. Now I am on 45 mcg and still the same insomnia, and rapid heart rate. My Fitbit says my heart is in excellent condition for a woman my age. Unfortunately that’s not what it feels like doctors dont want to explore with patients different medications options here in Florida and in a lot of places, unless we learn and bring it to the table and they are open to hear you and work with you. Most are not and sit on a Ivory tower, they don’t like being told by the patient what works, and so they dismiss you. Until Doctors learn more about our disease we will suffer something has to change. Thank you once again I have read about those two you are on, she did put me on a beta blocker metoprolol which I haven’t gotten yet! Wishing you continued health

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humanbean

I have also done a 7 day core cleaning

I spotted this earlier but forgot to mention it in my earlier post.

This idea that the body is full of garbage and poisons that needs to be cleared out in various, usually very unpleasant, ways is completely unscientific. The body is not a sewer that needs to be rodded out every so often, like a blocked toilet or drain.

As long as your liver and kidneys are moderately healthy then the body cleans itself out, and the bowel and bladder get rid of anything the body doesn't need or want.

I am sure there are some people who might need the help of the occasional laxative but that is as far as anyone needs to go - and they should do that as rarely as they can get away with. Better still would be to try and identify why they get constipated and try to get rid of it.

These videos are eye-opening on the subject of constipation :

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JAmanda

Just a thought... I couldn’t sleep for months till someone on here said I shouldn’t take my levo at night! Schoolgirl error. I don’t take any levo or t3 past 3pm and sleep well now.

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Milagroscrs615

The doctor should of told you that even the pharmacist you have to take it one hour before you eat, and if you take calcium you have to wait 4 hrs after you take your thyroid med meds this is what I was told of course you neeed to check with your doctor or pharmacist it’s makes a big difference! I take min at 7 am then go back to sleep!

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greygoose

There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't take your levo, or whatever at night if it agrees with you. As long as it's at least two hours after your last meal. :)

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Soozysoosop

Hi do you know what your cholesterol is? Just wandering with a family history of heart disease like that?

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Milagroscrs615

They check your cholesterol every time I go that’s every three months I will look up I think I posted them here will check

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greygoose

Your cholesterol level is more or less irrelevant - although high cholesterol is a hypo symptom - because cholesterol does not cause heart attacks or strokes.

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Soozysoosop

Hi, elevated cholesterol most certainly causes heart attacks and strokes through atherosclerosis , the reason I asked is because of the family history

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greygoose
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Soozysoosop

Sorry you may not agree with me but this article has no scientific evidence base. I however could post many evidence based articles . More importantly i an on the frontline I am a specialist nurse for familial hypercholesterolaemia and so drawing family trees which sadly show early heart disease from hypercholesterolaemia causing early heart attacks and stroke, sadly families devastated . It is not unusual to test a child and cholesterol hugely elevated, thankfully a statin will stop any damage being done and so that child can go on to Live a long and happy life .

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greygoose

And what about the damage done by the statin?

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Soozysoosop

What damage do you mean? Again I can only reiterate that statins quite simply save lives . However if people choose not to use them that is a choice they are more than entitled to make I just hope it is a informed choice. The ones who choose not to often will take them once they have had a heart attack or stroke. . . If they are lucky enough to survive , sadly some don’t and so I will then meet their relatives and hopefully help them to make a informed choice.

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greygoose

Well, that's not the experience my friend had with statins. But, in any case, why are you bringing up cholesterol in this case? Is there anything to suggest that the OP has familial hypercholesterolaemia? I think not. High cholesterol is, in any case, a symptom of low thyroid - you do know that, right, But having high cholesterol doesn't make you feel bad, and that's what we're talking about here: the OP's symptoms. So, why bring up cholesterol? It's a complete red herring.

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Soozysoosop

True ...the only reason I asked was because of her father and brother. However I did feel I needed to respond to your comment about cholesterol and it not causing heart attacks and strokes. . . I come across so many patients who are reluctant to take statins because of articles in the daily mail, I try to give information to help them make a decision that is properly informed. So I do hope you might think about making a comment like this in the future. Heart uk is a good website so by all means your entitled to your links to articles but maybe give some alternative ones so people can make a more informed choice.

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greygoose

You're asking me to post alternative articles when I don't believe a word they say? Rather a strange request, isn't it? I do not believe that cholesterol causes heart attacks and strokes, from all my reading - and, for your information, I DO NOT read the Daily Mail! - so there's no way I'm going to give links to articles that say it does. lol That's crazy! And, what's more, I will continue to say that cholesterol doesn't cause heart attacks and strokes, because that's what I believe. Nothing to do with Heart UK. And thanks for recognising my entitlement to my own beliefs!

Just out of curiosity, have you read Dr Malcolm Kendrick and Dr Broda Barnes' books? Might broaden your out-look.

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Soozysoosop

It’s more about giving the people reading your posts a alternative view so they can make their own informed choice.

heartuk.org.uk was my suggestion. As for daily mail I didn’t suggest that you read this paper but a lot of my patients do.

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Marz
Marz
in reply to Soozysoosop

Homocysteine is rarely tested in the NHS and is more of a marker for heart events and strokes than cholesterol. As you need only good levels of the B Vitamins to lower Hcy - it has not made it into mainstream medicine. Lower Homocysteine and cholesterol will also lower. Do look up Dr Malcolm Kendrick and his excellent blogs and as a GP specialising in cardiology he is on the ball and up to date. His grasp and interpretation of research is excellent. One of his latest Blogs is - What really causes heart disease ...

I have a great book of Research Papers from around the world - Thyroid and Heart Failure. Check it out on Amazon ! It's Low T3 that's the problem and yet rarely tested - it lowers the metabolism in all cells and things begin to go wrong - hence there being a pill for every symptom ! 🤔

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Soozysoosop
Soozysoosop
in reply to Marz

Interesting thanks , the research book is £140 though ... gulp

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Marz
Marz
in reply to Soozysoosop

You can 'Look Inside' and read details of each chapter. I saved up for it as I was living in the midst of an ex-pat community of a certain age taking pills and potions but not checking the thyroid !

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greygoose

Considering your job, you don't seem to be very well informed. Are you aware of the link between hypothyroidism and heart disease - and that thyroid problems tend to run in families? Do you know that low T3 causes high cholesterol levels? And do you know that taking statins lowers sex hormone levels leaving people vulnerable to hormone dependant cancers like breast cancer and prostate cancer? When you prescribe statins, do you check their hormone levels and prescribe replacement testosterone, etc.? I dread to think of the future consequences for a child prescribed a statin and sent on his/her merry way! The cholesterol won't kill them but statins probably will!

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Soozysoosop

I think maybe this discussion needs to end as you have become quite aggressive , would be good to see some evidence to the above claims though 😉 no patient is sent on their merry way rather very closely monitored by experts in their field . I would be more than happy to review any studies that you might be able to reference. I do not apologise for being a healthcare professional who will happily look at evidence based practice as I have done all my career. I personally do not prescribe the statins but work in tandem with medical professionals who again are evidence based in their practice and who I am grateful for their knowledge. . Who I am also not frightened to challenge use of statins in children is quite recent as opposed to the 30 plus years of statins in adults..studies so far are very reassuring though . . An interesting study was in 10 year olds who had carotid scans which showed a build up of plaque, they were scanned 6 months later after being on a statin and plaque had cleared . FH is 1:250 people so imagine how many lives we could be saving

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greygoose

No, not aggressive. Just asking questions. If you make a blank statement that cholesterol causes heart attacks, you must expect to be questioned by those that disagree. I'll see what I can find in the way of documentation, but I did suggest you read Dr Malcolm Kendrick and Dr Broda Barnes.

And nobody is asking you to apologies for anything - except maybe the inference that I read the Daily Mail! lol That's quite offensive.

And nobody is questioning the fact that taking statins will reduce cholesterol. The question is: at what price, and is it really necessary? Does it really save lives? How can you prove that?

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Soozysoosop

Ok I look forward to looking at the robust studies that show hypercholesterolaemia doesn’t cause atherosclerosis

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greygoose

You don't answer questions, do you.

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Soozysoosop

Feeling sad really when I’m working with this group of patients and lives could have been saved if wasn’t for the very minority of people who pay heed to books like you quote. Yes I know for sure statins save lives as I said in my post that I draw the family trees, and counsel as to whether a family member wants a test it can be incredibly heartbreaking when you look back through tree and see first second and third degree relatives who died at such a young age. . It’s the only genetic condition for which there is a treatment that is easily treatable

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greygoose

Have you even read those books?

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Soozysoosop

I have the Broda Barnes one somewhere in my book collection read it many years ago on recommendation from thyroid uk

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greygoose

He wrote more than one book. The one I'm referring to is: Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks.

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Soozysoosop

I feel your missing my point about allowing people on this site to make there own informed choice and giving them more than one reference . . . Your very entitled to your opinion but give people the tools to make their own as well

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greygoose

Why is it my job to give people tools to make up their own mind? I just don't understand what you're getting at, here. And awful lot of people on here have made up their own minds, but it's nothing to do with me. So, what point am I missing, exactly? At least I'm not trying to manipulate people with sob-stories. I think you're just being argumentative to cover up the fact that you don't really know that much about it. Which is also why you don't answer questions. :)

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Soozysoosop

What sob story exactly .... I know a lot more than you that’s very apparent ... sorry what were your qualifications I missed that one

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greygoose

Feeling sad really when I’m working with this group of patients and lives could have been saved if wasn’t for the very minority of people who pay heed to books like you quote...

You haven't even read the books but it's got to be them to blame! That sob story. And now you're resorting to sarcasm. And despite your qualifications, and my lack of them, you are once again avoiding all questions, so I shall just conclude you don't know as much as you think you do. I shall just bow out of this exercise in evasion - sorry! - this 'conversation', now. It's obviously pointless.

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Soozysoosop

acc.org/latest-in-cardiolog...

Oh and maybe I should recommend the book to one of my families who lost their son at the age of 3 from a myocardial infarction due to hypercholesterolaemia. Absolutely not a sob story but sadly plain truth. As I have said there are so many family stories that I have personally listened to. When drawing family trees.

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Soozysoosop
Reply
Marz
Marz
in reply to Soozysoosop

Seems Astra Zeneca were involved in the research - oops !

Did you read the articles in the BMJ when Fiona Godlee - Editor - insisted on transparency re Statins trials. Prof Rory Collins runs the Clinical Trials of Statins and refused to release the research revealing the side effects. Have moved countries so lost lots of links - but a quick google should find it. Might be worth finding out who pays his salary ..

Dr Kendrick covers it well ...

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Soozysoosop
Soozysoosop
in reply to Marz

No but I will look up ....hm what about 20 plus medics above Astra’s zen

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Marz
Marz
in reply to Soozysoosop

Follow the money !

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vocalEK
vocalEK
in reply to Soozysoosop

I had to stop taking a statin because it was destroying my muscles. See Table 3 in this research report on the National Library of Medicine web site: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Being hypothyroid is a risk factor for statin-induced muscular myopathy.

Edit: One more point. They tell you to follow a low fat diet when you have high cholesterol. Sorry. That's wrong. A low CARB diet often straightens out high cholesterol numbers. It sure did mine.

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Soozysoosop
Soozysoosop
in reply to vocalEK

Hi it’s great your diet sorted you out , unfortunately diet alone will not sort out people with familial hypercholesterolaemia diet only reduces levels by about 15-20% . Absolutely myopathy can be a problem with some statins, we swap to other statins and reduce dose slowly increasing over time. I must say it’s rare though the majority of people tolerate statins well.

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Milagroscrs615

I know high cholesterol causes heart attacks and when you have diabetes, high cholesterol, and it’s runs in your family like me the drs will put you on medformin and a Statens. I started taking meds for both 2017. Since then I am no longer diabetic, and no longer have cholesterol issues due to me changing my diet I still have Hashimotos disease though for life. I will check my heart because of my dad he died too young. Thank you for your insight.

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Soozysoosop

Hi I am sorry your post got hijacked , I really was only trying to genuinely help , I hope all goes well with your heart check and you start to feel better soon. Hypothyroidism is a rubbish condition , this site is a great one with some great people helping and supporting.

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Milagroscrs615

No worries here no judgments we are here to learn I’ve learned so much, as we know we are individual beings and may react to meds differently every case is individual based on how you feel, I wish doctors could see that just because test say it’s normal it doesn’t mean it’s normal. I believe a lot of us here have had this experience. I thank you for your input 🙏

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Milagroscrs615

I have to check last cholesterol last test was 155

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Soozysoosop

Hi was that total cholesterol ? Do you have any of the other numbers ie hdl, ldl, ratio. Are you in a statin?

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Milagroscrs615

Cholesterol is 155, Range less than 200, HDL is 63, range more than 50, LDL is 75 range under 100, and cholesterol/HDLC RATIO is 2.5 range less than 5.0. These are as of 10/23/19

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Milagroscrs615

I appreciate everyone’s response and I am grateful to have it good to know persons perspectives as everyone has had their own experiences. It’s up to individuals to do the research and understand their labs. For me I can tell when a medication feels toxic to me and I feel no one knows their body better than you. When in doubt I layout until I am sure and draw my own conclusions based on shared information so I appreciate you both for sharing your knowledge with me. Thank you #greygoose 🙂

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Soozysoosop

They look great certainly not an indicator for FH

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vocalEK

Those are very good numbers. Congrats!

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Milagroscrs615

Thank you I have learned a lot here and I am grateful to greygoose, shaws, slowdragon, humanbean and so many more! Thyroid disease and Hashimotos disease has caused much harm To humankind. I have been sick for years and didn’t even have a clue of what I had, I had three miscarriages which now I am sure was due to this disease. The bottom line Is Doctors are way behind, don’t care and not taking responsibility but want to get paid! We are suffering thank God for forums like this where your hearing first hand experiences. It means a lot to know you are not nuts!

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vocalEK

I am currently reading Tears Behind Closed Doors by Diana Holmes. Ordered via the Thyroid UK web site. You would find it interesting. She has collected thousands of stories of people (mostly women, but a few men, too) who were either not diagnosed (told their blood test was "normal") or diagnosed and treated, but remained ill (because they were undertreated.) She did not put all of the stories she collected into the book, but there's enough to recognize numerous similarities to the ones we have seen in here.

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JumpJiving

Regarding the beta blocker. I had been prescribed propranolol by two different doctors, one for hyperhidrosis (excessive sweating), the other for migraines. I was very wary of taking beta blockers based on the experience of others I know, in particular a very experienced critical care nurse whose judgement I never had reason to doubt. In the end, having not taken it when first prescribed, I recently went on a starter dose. I gave it a reasonable go - taking it in syrup form (I am allergic to lactose), I got through three and a bit bottles on the starter dose before stopping it. Yes, my resting heart rate dropped by 9bpm even on the starter dose. However, I was constantly cold, particularly in the evenings, absolutely exhausted, to the extent that I couldn't stay awake from 7-9pm. Muscle aches and pains came back. Taste sensation completely stuffed. Increasingly dodgy insides. Felt like my immune system was struggling, suddenly getting cold/sinus symptoms that I haven't had in at least a year. It didn't reduce my sweating at all, nor stop migraines. Having stopped taking it a couple of weeks ago, my resting heart rate hasn't gone up again, but I am already starting to feel better in all other ways (other than taste sensation, which is still stuffed). As of yesterday, I have started taking magnesium citrate. My magnesium levels were mid-range the last time I had them tested, but as magnesium is supposed to help with sweating, migraines and sleep, I figure I'll give it a try. I'm only supplementing with 100mg per day currently as I was already mid range, but will see how it goes.

Based on my experience, I think you're wise to wait until you see the cardiologist before starting beta blockers.

BTW - did your doctor tell you that beta blockers (certainly the ones in the -olol family) can interfere with conversion of thyroid hormones? Mine didn't know about that.

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Milagroscrs615

Nope she did not but I read it I looked them all up before I saw her because I knew she was going to prescribe a beta blocker if my heart rate did not improve, I read the side effects and those the side effects are it’s the same symptoms as being hypo!!! That’s why I said I am not doing it until I see the cardiologist! Thank for the heads up though I appreciate it!

Reply
vocalEK
vocalEK
in reply to JumpJiving

Propranolol inhibits myocardial infarction-induced brown adipose tissue D2 activation and maintains a low thyroid hormone state in rats ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

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Soozysoosop
Soozysoosop
in reply to vocalEK

Not v well referenced

Reply
Marz
Marz
in reply to Soozysoosop

There are 40 references. Are you familiar with the work of Bianco ? Top Man ! I saw his name mentioned in the references. Also look up John Iaoniddes and his thoughts on research.

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