Thyroid UK
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Sleep anyone?

Sleep anyone?

I have been using antihistamines to sleep for a while. But i want to stop using them. I also read they prevent weight loss. Urgh. So i have been trying to get under the histamine issue as i do wake up at 2 am almost every night. So i estimate that it is partly because my lower intestine just hit “empty” because i usually dont eat breakfast and take vitamins with coffee. i eat pretty clean already but maybe my gut bacteria start to bang their mini-cups for food? So today i ate some veggies for breakfast and delayed my vitamins to lunch. I have ordered some gluthathione supplements. What else can i do?

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Magnesium? Perhaps you already take it but could be useful

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I have been Taking magnesium. Thank you for the reminder. Also potassium helps.

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Magnesium is good also valerian tea. Smells like bad socks but works a treat also Epsom salts baths are good and meditation. Also lavender and valerian in a oil diffuser are good. Try make a good bedtime routine helps to without the iPhone or computer as the blue light absolutely canes sleep

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Yes i use valerian. I could increase magnesium.

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I snack (between 8pm and 9pm) - Gluten free porridge (for the tryptophan) with some inulin fibre and blueberries / banana + Magnesium+ Zinc + low dose Niacin (the flushing kind) + Menopause Supp. The niacin is really helpful as it helps the body convert tryptophan to melatonin.

Now, this is the weird one. If I should wake up which isn't happening that often now, I take a Betaine HCl with glass of water so it goes down properly and I settle on my left hand side to be safe (to help the tablet go down properly). Sounds mad, but it works and I'm sleeping within half an hour. There could be (hypothesis) some feedback thing with stomach acid levels to lower TSH which may switch off the night-time cortisol?? Anyway it's not causing any side effects in me (yet). I would not recommend to anyone with sensitive tum though.

N.B. My iron levels are improving and that helps too.

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Thank you! I take melatonin. Unfoetunately my sleep issue is at a deeper level.

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Very interesting. I will try the hci for sure.

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I do things similar to this. I believe this waking after a few hours is to do with the adrenals and the sugar metabolism.

Effectively your body becomes hungry in the night, too hungry to stay asleep. Adrenals are supposed to be covering this system for you, to allow you to sleep through. But when they're tired they can't.

My solution is less detailed than HLAB35, I just make sure to eat a substantial snack before bed, and have oatcakes by my bed that I can eat if I wake up.

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SilverAvocado,

What do you call a substantial snack. I do have a snack at 9ish, but I'm now wondering if it's "substantial" enough. My sleep is poor because of my tired adrenals, so I'm looking to improve my night time routine. And actually hadn't thought of eating in the night. I take it the oatcakes are eaten dry ( without anything on them)?

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I think the question of 'substantial' is how long is a piece of string. I tend to eat about a third of my food for the day just before bed. But usually will have it as nuts, cheese, milk, or leftovers. Probably this is not the best thing to eat, but it's what I've ended up with.

Yes, I have the oatcakes dry. Just because I am quite disabled so it's hard for me to prepare anything better. At one time I used to put a bit more work in and leave a little dish of dried fruit and nuts by my bed. In those days I used to eat it unis nights, but now I rarely do.

Probably the main thing is that if you feel hungry, have something to eat. I think I was quite aware of the hunger. Maybe not every day, but at one time I was downstairs in the kitchen at 4am every day trying to find something to eat.

People who are more on the ball than me tailor what they eat better. For example having an adrenal cocktail consisting of orange juice, salt, and perhaps other things. As vitamin C and salt are supposed to help the adrenals.

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The snack that I use that that helpis is string cheese.

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That's interesting, I also tend to find cheese one of the things I want to eat late at night.

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Yes thank you. I’ve worked along these lines. Blood sugar does drop the body does wake up. But going back to sleep is an issue after eating. I am deeply looking into gut inflammation, SVIO and even gum thickeners in coffee creamers as being aggravators.

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I find that once I eat I drop off much more quickly, and feel more comfortable and relaxed than I did before eating.

Although the reason I go for the oatcakes is so I can pick them up and eat without having to move my head from the pillow. I find once I've sat up or got out of bed it can be a lot more difficult.

I'm also talking about several hour periods. I used to be awake for about 8 hours, I'd sleep for a couple of hours in the evening, then I'd fall back to sleep early the following morning. So if I get back to sleep within about 2 hours I consider any intervention a success.

But if you don't feel a change after eating, then maybe it's something else that's the issue.

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Hello,

I empathize with you whole heartedly, I am using biovea.net/uk/product_detai...

3mg might be too much so split the tablet, also don't have alcohol and take breaks.

Best wishes :-)

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How are your thyroid levels ? When do you take your medication ?

Have you had all your levels checked for B12 - Folate - Ferritin - VitD ?

Adrenals spring to mind :-)

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I take natural supplements for thyroid, I’ve been looking into histamines in particular because the Antahistamine is what helps me sleep. I am looking into glurhionine as a way to heal the gut per somebody’s post which I thought was brilliant. Also I took charcoal last night finally and it actually let me sleep so there’s a toxic things going on which I need to get under

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Maybe look at your Thyroid Supplements to see if they need a boost. You are Hypo I presume - so not being able to sleep is a symptom - so perhaps your levels are off. I live in Crete and was told by a Greek Doctor that two necklace crinkles on the neck always alerts him to a thyroid issue. I can see yours in the picture :-) My sleep issues only resolved once I was optimally treated.

How are your levels of B12 - Folate - Ferritin - VitD ? They are quite important when it comes to Thyroid metabolism even when it's healthy ....

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I am 63. I think neck wrinkles are rather normal at my age. Although I will keep this in mind. I do take a ton of supplements. maybe too much.

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What do you mean by 'natural supplements'? I would suggest that it's being hypo that stops you sleeping.

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Concept.

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Pardon?

Do you mean this?

dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailym...

A multivit? If so, that's not going to be of any help whatsoever.

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I thought you meant a Thyroid supplement - so agree with greygoose a Multi- Vit won't help. Do you actually have a thyroid problem ?

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i dont have a thyroid problem on the medical scale. I have a thyroid that needs some supplemental help on the I want to be healthier scale. I still am leaning towards leaky gut and inflammation.

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Which medical scale do you mean ? If you were tested in the NHS then it is possible you only had the TSH tested which tells you little. You need FT4 & FT3 & anti-bodies tested to rule out Hashimotos.

T3 is the active thyroid hormone and needs to be high in range as every cell in the body needs T3. The brain has the biggest demand followed by the gut/immune system. So trying to heal the gut with low levels of T3 will be challenging. I was diagnosed with Crohns after gut TB around 45 years ago - so know a thing or two about the gut ! Also have learned a great deal about the thyroid having been a member here for over six years ..... so many knowledgeable people to learn from. 😊

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Not having a thyroid problem on the 'medical scale' doesn't mean you don't have a thyroid problem! You are actually hypo when your TSH hits 3, but the sadists in the NHS like it to reach 10 before they will diagnose!

Thyroids actually don't need supplements. In fact, supplements are often a very bad idea, as far as your thyroid is concerned. And you can't replace a hormone with a vitamin. It's possible that you do have leaky gut, which is often the cause of Hashi's, and Hashi's causes inflammation. So, I would suggest you have a closer look at your thyroid blood test results, and revise your conclusions. :)

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Thank you borh. I am focused on histamines right now. I cut the creamer which had gums that harm the gut, increased my protein and started gluthionine. Slept much better last night

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Good. But, you ignore the thyroid at your peril.

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holtorfmed.com/leaky-gut-li...

This has just popped into my Inbox - illustrating my concerns mentioned earlier about the gut and the Thyroid - so Hashimotos needs to be ruled out in my non-medical opinion !

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Useful! Here is a quote from what you just sent me and this is what I am focused on right now:

"Poor glutathione levels can also be a factor in leaky gut. Glutathione is often called the master oxidant. It is necessary to repair and defend the gut lining."

Note: The gut problem can lead to thyroid problems. I am working on the gut problem. This requires diet changes and special supplements. My energy level during the day is fine with what I am doing. Sleep and food sensitivities are what I am looking at.

You seem to be focused on thyroid for yourself. I may suggest you also make sure you are not eating aggregators and so forth. I understand thyroid issues. I also understand underlying causes.

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If you have read my Bio you will know that I have come a long way and gut healing has certainly been part of my journey. At almost 72 I am teaching yoga twice a week - swim a kilometer daily in the summer in my pool - and am still running a business. Something I could not have contemplated before my diagnosis back in 2005 - I do have an open mind and happy to learn from others ....

Yes of course gut issues can lead to a multitude of health problems - but sadly without adequate levels of T3 various aspects of our health will not recover - I think I could well be an example of that scenario ! Of course there is a chicken and egg situation too ....

Check out the book on Amazon - Thyroid and Heart Failure ! Research papers put together in Italy by an Endocrinologist and a Cardiologist with Research Papers from around the world - coming together for the first time for the purposes of research. Liothyronine is the star of the show !

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Well you are certainly setting a good example. My understanding of thyroid supplementation is that it is very tricky. Hashmotios runs in my family. There should be a gene test for that now?

I currently commute la freeways twice a day for an hour each way, i work a high pressure job 8 to 5 five days a week and walk 5 dogs rvery night. Surviving my own life is the challenge.

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They say stress causes so much illness - sounds as if you have more than your share :-)

You could just have the anti-bodies tested to rule out Hashimotos - TPO & Tg - as it is a family thing - then at least you would know what you are dealing with rather than speculating ....

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Hi

Yes agree with marz low adrenals can cause insomnia.

Antihistamine absolutely no they mess up your sinuses.

And I quote my specialist here

Don’t eat past 7. I have sleep issues following glandular fever and a second more severe illness- timed melatonin or l -tryptophan are useful.

Epsom salt topically is better as you need a bucket full to make much difference. Sorry can’t see the science behind the betain. Your tsh spikes at 3am.) according to my specialist again)

so id check your adrenals and dhea. Eat enough earlier and have a decent breakfast- that should be your best meal of the day.

Best wishes

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I do agree with Marz and yourself about the adrenals. I regularly take p-5-p and b5 and this has done wonders for stress levels.

I also agree that Epsom salts are great and eating a good breakfast is vital.

Yes, science can't yet explain the Betaine HCl, but for some reason it helps - admittedly, just for me and also someone who reviewed it and said it helped with their insomnia - which they believed was due to sinus issues. (I also no longer have chronic sinusitis since following lots of advice to treat my thyroid) N.B. I only use it when I wake in the night - which isn't often now (maybe once or twice in a month). Generally though, I take it in the morning with breakfast and also with dinner to aid digestion.

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I had chronic sinus issues but they improved the moment I went onto ndt. Betain made no difference for me and I had a stool analysis which showed 0 hcl.

By adrenals I mean testing dhea and cortisol with a saliva test. Again I’ve swapped to a natural but v effective supplement - no additives.

For sleep to be effective you need to be in bed by10.

Melatonin is only produced for two hrs 10-12.

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I’m normally in bed by nine. Because I need nine hours to get eight hours with my sleep issue.

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Could you please tell me what p-5-p is?

I am struggling with my adrenals and of course low thyroid function at present , so I'm looking at everything that can help my sleep, which is poor because of the above

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Could you please tell me what p-5-p is please ?

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Hello C70rol, I'm back. P-5-P is the most bioavailable form of b6. It seems to work well with b5, magnesium and zinc to help adrenals. Vitamin d levels need to be optimal as well, I hasten to add, as vit d is actually a 'pro-hormone' according to the latest science and helps with everything hormonal.

There are adrenal specific B supplements out there which include extra of both (one by Thorne comes to mind).

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Thank you for that information . I shall look up tha p-5-p. Anything that helps the adrenals is well worth looking at, as far as I'm concerned. I do take a good zinc and plenty of magnesium, and just had my vits and minerals tested and all came back good..... So important as we know !!!!

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Hello HLAB35, I'm sorry to be contacting you again, but I'm really interested in starting the P-5-P supplement, especially as you seem to give it such a ringing endorsement ! I presume you take the Thorne Research product ?

Firstly has it improved your sleep ? Plus I was wondering if you take the Supplement every day , as my naturopath once told me that you have to be careful not to take too much B6 as it can be very toxic.

I also checked my B complex capsules and they don't contain any B 6, and they only have 20mg of B5. So the P-5-P may well help me !

Thank you !

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Your Naturopath is right about B6 if it's not in p-5-p form. It puts a strain on the liver and has some weird side effects (weird neuropathic symptoms). I used to take the 'cheap' sort for PMS when I was in my twenties and although it helped a bit it left me with some unpleasant tingling sensations and I found out it was the B6 so stopped!

Several companies do it - either on it's own or with co-factors:- Thorne, Biocare, Igennus, Terry Naturally and Swanson. Take your pick - it depends if you prefer to have the magnesium already with it!

One word of warning (I've done some homework) B6 (any form) is suspected by Dr Cheney (CFS Fibro doctor) to enhance histamine production which is fine if you're avoiding triggers and don't have histamine intolerance, but as you were taking antihistamines before, it's worth bearing that in mind.

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I'm not quite certain about this histamine problem (having read a post written by Dr Cheney) actually .... seems on further investigation and other sources that b6 could help provided there's plenty of magnesium around ... that must be the key to its success. I think taking a p-5-p with magnesium and zinc included is probably your best bet. There are certainly some posts by people with histamine intolerance that struggled with b6, yet other websites recommend it.. most confusing!

alisonvickery.com.au/why-yo...

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Yes I am doing a three prong attack. I am taking Glutathione both in liquid and tablet form (see Glutathione - Wikipedia), I have changed my probiotics to non-distamine ones, I am directly taking DAO Enzymes (metabolize histamines) AND the p-5-p with B complex, etc. It seems to be improving.

this person went to extremes on the subject but it is good research:

mybiohack.com/blog/treat-de...

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HLAB35,

Thank you very much for coming back to me, plus the amount of research you've you've done on the B 6. I have spent this afternoon doing similar, which has resulted in my ordering the Biocare P-5-P. This does contain zinc, magnesium, and B2.

I spoke to a very helpful nutritionist at Biocare and when telling her of my adrenal, and resultant under active thyroid problems, she felt that the p-5-p would be a helpful addition to my other supplements. We also totalled the amount of magnesium that I was already taking in other supplements and I came under the maximum we should take.

So thank you very very much. I really appreciate your efforts on my behalf !!!!

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Definitely. I’ve done breakfast and not done breakfast it doesn’t seem to be the factor here. I am more a warrior eater and I eat at night. What’s ironic is that if I’m gaining weight and I over eat my body is perfectly happy to sleep when I want to lose weight all the sudden it’s in an uproar.

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Can I also recommend leaving out the caffeine all together? A lifelong sufferer from sleep problems, I now go to bed by 11 and get up by 7, have had no caffeine for a year and a half and take Epson salts baths if I am not dropping off. For the first time in my life I am sleeping 8 hours most nights . I had no idea how wonderful sleep could be until I experienced it. You just have to try things until you figure out what works for you. Its like solving your own personal puzzle. Good luck.

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Your suggestion to drop out caffeine is for me a last resort. I am Italian and we invented the espresso! But it’s definitely on the list if I cannot get other stuff to work

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I agree that this is the very obvious thing that jumps out of your story. Even completely healthy people with working thyroids get big benefits from giving up caffeine.

There's little point in working on deeper measures, when you are taking one of the most well known disruptors of sleep! I believe caffeine is bad for the adrenals, too.

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I have drank coffee my whole life. I have slept most of my life as well. Maybe some are coffee sensitive it has not been an issue for me until now. So it is like #5 on my list of probabilities not #1

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I love my coffee but don’t drink it after 4pm maybe it’s worth just limiting it so you don’t drink it close to bedtime

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That is exactly what i do!! It is nice to see that someone else figured out the same thing. Thanks.

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Hopefully this may help. I have just discovered i am carb sensitive and it causes night time hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) For years i have been having disturbed sleep by what i thought were panic attacks. I bought a fitbit and started keeping an eye on my heartrate and sleeping patterns and finally realised it was dependant on what i had eaten at tea time! My heart rate has settled way down, im losing weight and im sleeping so much better!

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Hi

I am coeliac and eat a ketogenic diet. I’ve really had to work on my sleep but I am never hypoglycaemic. That too is linked to adrenal issues.( see dr Sarah Myhill.co.uk under adrenal gear box)

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Yes I’ve been low-carb my whole life. And I have been Keto. It’s looking like I have to actually fast every day intermittent in order to bring down the insulin and the leptin enough to actually sleep this is a very annoying factor but I’m looking at it

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Hi Catrinafirstman, sounds like you are already doibg a lot of things I usually suggest. I used to have terrible insomnia, but I have now got it pretty good.

You mention magnesium, but have you tried Epsom Salt baths, this gives a big top op of magnesium. As another poster mentioned, you need to use a lot. I put in 500g-kg, and stay in the bath for half an hour or so. You can buy big buckets online, in the supermarket they treat it like gold dust ;)

Besides melatonin, which you've mentioned you take, Mindfulness has had the biggest impact on my sleep. It's the thing that really makes the difference with waking up later in the night. I now do 15 mins every day, and my sleep will be disrupted if I skip it. I started off doing it occasionally and built up slowly until I felt I needed it every day.

There are several good apps available, and you can get recordings on YouTube. I started with this great book: Mindfulness: Finding peace in a frantic world by Mark Williams and Danny Penman. The book is an 8 week course, and includes a CD. They have released about 5 sequels now, focused on different things. There is one about chronic pain, so go for that one if pain is part of your problem - that's also an 8 week course with CD.

I think the only thing from my own list that hasn't been mentioned is audio-books and recordings. I find these great for keeping my mind clear when I'm struggling to sleep, and gives me something valuable to do. If you want to try out the Audible service I suggest using your free trial book to get something nice and long. I like the complete Sherlock Holmes, as it is over 30hrs long and all short stories. Stephen fry has recently redone the whole thing, with his own commentary between sections. Some books are so short they barely get you through the night!

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Oh yes, one more thing is to try out all the conventional advice like having a good routine, keeping the bedroom for sleep only, etc. I found bits of that helped me a little.

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Definitely worth dwelling on something outside of your normal worries and cares before sleep. For me, sometimes historical fiction, sometimes history books - anything on ancient civilisations sparks my imagination (I've been watching the Civilisations T.V. series).

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Yes, I usually set up 2 hours on a sleep timer when I get into bed - podcasts at the moment, but sometimes audiobooks. Then I like to know I've got at least 8 hours available in case I need it in the night. I used to use 8 hours every night, but now it's very rare I start up my audio again.

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I like your ideas, I actually listen to boring lectures on YouTube sometimes because it it is soothing to have a voice in the background. I will clear my mind at night if I remembered to do it I should do it more. I can’t do a magnesium bath I just don’t have the time but I can take magnesium I think I need to handle gut. inflammation. I just researched whether the gums in my coffee creamer are irritating to the gut and there seems to be some agreement that it is an irritant and creates leaky got.

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Do u an under lying issue for not being able to sleep?

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Maybe. Gut issues. Insulin and blood sugar. Maybe gut biome at war.

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Firmness of the mattress, has anyone found that to factor in too?

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When I realised my sleep problems were here to stay, I bought an expensive memory foam mattress. I was getting quite a lot of joint pain during the night, and felt like I was lying on rocks.

I was actually a bit disappointed with the new mattress, because I couldn't tell much difference. But I've now had it for a few years, and if I sleep somewhere else I notice the mattress is much worse! So I guess my own must help a bit!

The thing I found made a big difference was a new pillow. I tried a few different ones until I found out about birch pod (that's not what it's called. I'll look it up in a minute) pillow. I hated it at first, but kept coming back to it and eventually like it a lot more. It's like a beanbag of soft seed pods, and you can mold it with your hands to whatever shape you need. I found it recommended for back pain. It really cradles your head and supports it all around. Whereas a traditional pillow just squashes and the support is very uneven.

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The pillows are buck wheat husks.

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My father had this plush New Zealand sheepskin we discovered. He always slept in a chair so I have no idea if these would help.

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That sounds fantastic. I have a sheepskin that Iie on to meditate, and it gives wonderful support. I noticed when buying it that you can get medical sheeoskins, intended to sleep on to avoid bedsores and things like that.

The one I have has got quite a lumpy seam, so I think you'd have to seek out one that was specially made to be large enough to sleep on.

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I do take. I could try more. And potassium

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Have u had labs. Antihistimes r not addictive. My doctor gave me that for sleeping to. I suffer sleep problems due to my graves disease.

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I haven’t done labs as in bloodwork I have been to a nutritionist. Anna histamines are not addictive but they do prevent weight loss and I don’t want to be using them every single night to sleep. I need to handle the underlying problem with why do I have histamines that my body is not dealing with.

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If I wake up in the middle of the night, I drink a glass of water. I fall back to sleep after about half an hour. If I don't drink water I'm up forever and am like a half dead the next day.

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Wow so dehydration is a factor. I drink all the time. Upped my protein and took guthionine. Sleep much better

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I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the wonderful Melissa ... or Lemon Balm !

It is a great help to those who cannot get to sleep .. and if you waken during the night , you can take it again.

Passionflower or hops can be taken with Melissa too.

I take mine in tincture form followed by a glass of water .

Mixed with

Bugleweed and

Motherwort

Melissa is amazing for treating anxiety I have Graves‘ disease

( tho now in remission ) and it has helped me immeasurably since my diagnosis .

Mx🌹

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Wow yes i use a tictuure here called Deep Sleep.

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Very interesting! Did not know about this.

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Have you considered meditation? I’ve always been sceptical but desperate times have meant I’ll try anything.

I use an app called headspace which talks you through the process. I am trying to use it more and more as it really helps with my anxiety and stress levels and relaxes me. At bedtime I use it and sleep like a log straight through.

I’ve always had issues sleeping. I think we have to find what suits us but I’ve tried lots of drugs and it turns out meditation has worked whereas the drugs etc didn’t 💤

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I do a simple form of being aware of the room and not thinking for a period of time. Not easy!!. Sometimes i imagine the beach.

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I woke up at 3am like clockwork every night prior to taking thyroid medication. & was wide awake for 2 hours. I also crashed every afternoon at 4pm. I read somewhere that low thyroid hormones cause the adrenal hormones' circadiam rhythm out of kilter , which seemed to make sense of my experience & why it stopped. Maybe you need to tweak your dose of THs up a little, & see how you sleep.

I stick to restrictive eating times now, which my body is used to, & I don't seem to get hungry at night as long as I've eaten enough during the hours I eat, & mostly I sip water from evening to late morning. I drink kefir every day which I recommend for everything, & take chelated magnesium at bedtime, which helped me get to sleep pre-THs. If I know I'll have trouble getting to sleep I take melatonin, but that didn't help my nightly wake up issue. Perhaps try something like 5-HTP from griffonia seeds or st john's wort.

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