Morningside T3 Disaster Daaahlings! *Help please? (Reverse T3??)

[OzoneGirl]

Apologies for the Strictly reference – at least I have not completely lost my sense of humour?!

As I said in my earlier Post, I swapped to my new Morningside T3 two weeks ago and it has been an extremely rough ride:

Unfortunately I made a straight swap from my Mercury Pharma/Concordia T3 tabs, which in hindsight was probably a bad idea, i.e. I should have phased them in, but hadn’t anticipated that they could be soooo different, when they’re supposed to be exactly the same dose of T3.

I think that they must be much ‘stronger’:

On the positive side I found that my brain worked slightly better & that I had a bit more energy. I also felt much more cheerful (when I wasn’t fuming with anger!!). I had tantalising glimpses of feeling more like a ‘normal human bean’! [Also leads me to believe that the Mercury Pharma/Concordia T3 has gradually been getting weaker over the past couple of years.]

That would have been great apart from the extremely negative side-effects:

On the negative side I started to feel a bit shaky & ended up with extremely high blood pressure – up one third, & after 4 days when I woke (unusually early) in the morning my heart was pounding and my pulse was already 100bpm, up from the usual low 80s – v. scary. {I realise that our T3 is naturally at its highest in the early hours, so wonder if that’s related to it?}

To rectify, I firstly tried substituting a bit of the old Mercury Pharma/Concordia (MP/C) T3 instead of some of the Morningside (MS) T3, but in the end it was so scary that I had to go back to a low dose of completely MP/C T3.

Then I went back to my usual does of MP/C T3 = felt completely rubbish – all the symptoms of being under-medicated. 

Now I’m trying a combination of about 1/3rd MS T3 and 2/3rds MP/C T3, but the result is very up & down. I expect that I might have done too much when I felt more energised and more cheerful, & that now I’m just suffering from the slump following over-exertion?

Today I still feel rubbish, but with a slightly raised heartbeat.

I did ask the Pharmacy if they could get more of the MP/C T3, as although I feel a bit low & under-medicated on them at least I don’t feel like my heart is going to explode. Rather worryingly, they said that it depended on what the central supplier has, so one could be prone to getting either one or the other without any say in the matter because they are both ‘generic T3’. [N.B. I do know all about the cost issues.]

Although Pharmacist was sympathetic and will try to get me MP/C T3 when it's available.

So I am really trying to work out if there is an optimal dose of the Morningside (MS) T3 that I could take, in case it’s the only one available. And I rather liked having some brain function and a joyful outlook back, but that needs to be without the raised blood pressure & pounding heart, & other negative symptoms……..more on that:

The Morningside T3 also made me extremely angry – not just annoyed, but furious! And I had to forgo any social contact to avoid permanently damaging my few remaining relationships! I had this sort of unjustified anger issue with T4 in the past. I’m sure that I read on here somewhere that such anger can be a sign of too much Reverse T3. And that in turn too much Reverse T3 can be caused by poor conversion of T4, which entirely fits with my anger issues on T4. **Could someone please confirm if I have that right? Thanks.**

I’ve also read on here that Reverse T3 can be a ‘good thing’ in that it causes a reduction in energy & thus makes one rest when one needs to heal. That’s very interesting, as another side-effect of the Morningside T3 is that I’ve felt extremely tired often from midday (or early evening) onwards – I mean fall-over tired and having to lay down & go to bed very early. I’ve also noticed in the last few days that that seems to be associated with a drop in blood pressure, to below my normally low blood pressure.

So I am wondering if these Morningside T3 tablets could perhaps contain some (unconverted) T4? Or whether it’s possible that they contain Reverse T3? **Any ideas about how I can get them tested?** I am going to fill in the (green?) form at the pharmacy for them, but don’t know how many people have to comment before something happens? [I also intend to fill one out for the MP/C T3 to say that it’s become too weak.]

“”Any comments and suggestions for help would be gratefully received – Thank you. **

[Just to mention that I also take a tiny bit of NDT as well as T3 – but no T4 as it makes me very angry!]

[Clutter]

OzoneGirl,

There won't be T4 medication in Liothyronine tablets but there is T4 in NDT.

There's no point in taking a medication which doesn't suit when Mercury Pharma is still available. If your pharmacist is having difficulty obtaining MP Liothyronine ask pharmacist to contact Concordia customer services who will assist them.

Tell your pharmacist that Morningside doesn't suit and that if they can't guarantee you Mercury Pharma Liothyronine you would like your prescription back and will take it else where.

[OzoneGirl in reply to Clutter]

Thank you for replying Clutter.

Yes, I'm aware that there is T4 in NDT, and T3, T2 & T1 etc.. My dose of NDT: 1/4 twice per day, has remained the same for 5 years, alongside the same dose of T3 (MP/C). I've always felt more balanced with that tiny dose of NDT alongside the T3 - I presume that all those other Ts: T2, T1... actually do something positive and important!

Although there obviously shouldn't be T4 in T3 tablets!, I think I have read somewhere that sometimes the manufacturing process can result in there being some Reverse T3 in T3 tabs - that's partly what I was getting at - is it the Reverse T3 that might cause the anger, or excess T4?

I have never had the side-effect of anger from this dose of T3 (+NDT) before, so I'm just exploring what might be happening, as it is only the T3 (MS) that has changed.

Thinking about that, I guess that if the MS T3 IS stronger, then less of the tiny bit of T4 that's in the NDT is needed to be converted into T3, so perhaps some unconverted T4 is hanging around & causing the anger issues?

That is worth exploring - I think I'll try reducing my NDT tomorrow for a few days & see if the anger diminishes. Thank you for making me think on that.

It's just so difficult having to play around with something that was 'working' relatively OK.

The Pharmacist has been pretty helpful so I will push him a bit. However, I think that there may be a general supply problem with Mercury Pharma/Concordia T3, probably related to the cost issue & people being taken off T3, & there therefore being less demand, hence the new suppliers Morningside and TEVA being licensed in the UK. My last lot of MP/C T3 was very short-dated & I suspect that the reduced UK NHS demand for T3 means their (Concordia's) stock wasn't moving fast enough - I've seen a post on that somewhere.

Also, the Morningside T3 is a few pence cheaper than the Concordia T3 so I'm sure that the pharmacies will be steering towards the 'cheaper' option, particularly if they have a better 'shelf-life'. Not sure yet how TEVA's price will compare? And maybe TEVA will be better???

The other thing that worries me is that it's clearly shown that the MP/Concordia T3 is too weak, so I really need my dose increased - something that my GP is not going to want to sanction due to the cost, unless I can prove that it really is weaker than it should be.

That glimmer of normality I got from the Morningside T3 was something that I was hoping to be able to keep, hence why I've been persevering with the Morningside T3, i.e. to adjust the dose enough to keep the good but to banish the bad side-effects.

Of course, it could simply be that the different formulation of the Morningside T3, i.e. fillers etc. is what's causing me all the problems.

Thank you for your help,

[Clutter in reply to OzoneGirl]

OzoneGirl,

rT3 isn't a hormone so it can't be included in Liothyronine (T3) accidentally or otherwise.

The MP T3 has certainly had short expiry dates in the last year but as long as you will finish the tablets before the expiry date what does it matter?

Why do you think MP T3 is weaker than it should be? I take MP T3 and haven't found it has lost potency. If your dose is too low that's a separate issue.

You can compare the ingredients of Morningside and Mercury Pharma to see the difference in the ingredients.

Teva will probably pitch their price close to Morningside and Concordia's MP.

[wightmouse]

If you think the Morningside t3 is stronger why not take half and see how you go? What dose you taking as you don't say?

When you say a tiny bit NDT? How much is that? As it contains t4 and t3.

[OzoneGirl in reply to wightmouse]

Thanks WightMouse,

That's pretty much what I tried doing:

I have tried with a lesser dose, & with combined MP/C & Morningside, which unfortunately results in the negative side-effects of them all!

Had to go back to just Mercury Pharma T3 to allow things to settle - now just feel low & rubbish, with up & down blood pressure, that sparkle from the Morningside has dissolved!

[SeasideSusie Remembering]

Same thing happened to me when changing from Unipharma to Grossman Cynomel T3. I just did a straight swap. Very high BP and racing pulse hitting about 120.

I stopped T3 for 2 days, started again (Grossman) at 1/4 tablet, built up over a couple of weeks to a whole tablet. Still slightly high BP/pulse so now down to 3/4 tablet to see how that goes. I was taking 1 and 1/4 Unipharma T3 tablets and was fine on that.

[OzoneGirl in reply to SeasideSusie]

Dear Seaside Susie,

Thank you so much for your reply - it is so heartening to know that it's not just me! Though of course sorry to hear that you had the problem in the first place.

I guess in hindsight, it would only take them being a teeny tiny bit stronger to have a huge effect!

I shall never do a straight swap of any thyroid meds ever again!

Thanks for mentioning that you stopped them completely for a couple of days - I went back to 3/4 dose of Mercury Pharma/Concordia T3 for one day & felt terrible (under-medicated), so was scared to stop completely. I think that I'll take a step back & define a more gradually phased approach - it's difficult to think when one's brain doesn't have the right amount of thyroid hormones!

Thanks again for your help.

[Zephyrbear in reply to SeasideSusie]

Can you tell me please whether this was recently SeasideSusie? I have just bought some Grossman Cynomel and was going to swap over from MP T3. I'm currently taking 45mcg in two doses (25mcg at 6am and 20mgc at 4.30pm) which is keeping me going. However, my blood pressure is normal (120/80), but I do have a faster heart rate (around 84bpm resting) which, when I have to take Fostair for my asthma will start racing and pounding up to 100bpm! Have reported this effect to doctors who shrug shoulders and say 'continue taking it... Nothing to worry about.'

Would definitely appreciate a bit of advice on the switch-over to Cynomel though...

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to Zephyrbear]

Zephyrbear

Yes, very recently, towards the end of June this year.

[pffft2017]

Hi are you still an active member? I've just had to report some side effects about Morningside liothyronine - sleep disruption, weird vivid dreams, mild headaches and grogginess. Never experienced any of this with Mercury Pharma or Teva. Btw I was palmed off many times by the chemist with out of date Mercury Pharma.

[kerrylouisa1966]

Really interesting to read this as I have had the opposite. I have been changed from Concordia T3 to Morningside and all my old symptoms have returned. Extremely tired and groggy, weight is going up, all the old hypothyroidism symptoms. I have only just realised that this could be as a result of the change of manufacturer but assumed all tablets were just the same? I think I will have to return to the doctors but like you all I just swapped immediately from one to the other as nobody informed me there could be side effects.

[pffft2017 in reply to kerrylouisa1966]

Sorry to hear that, just goes to show we're all unique. I've learnt to live with the weird dreams it was a good trade off to be able to maintain my weight but have now gained some weight for no apparent reason. These lio batches rarely seem to be consistent, or perhaps I build up a tolerance to different brands, but Teva never worked from the off. Hope you find your Holy Grail.

[kerrylouisa1966 in reply to pffft2017]

Thank you.

[HappyHealthyGirl]

Just looking for historical problems with Morningside

[pffft2017 in reply to HappyHealthyGirl]

Please share, you've piqued our interest.