Who is telling the truth?

Hello everyone,

I have been going through an early menopause - so started taking Natural Progesterone Cream, this went dreadfully wrong, I was told (by the supplier) I must have a bad case of estrogen dominance and once the flare up has calmed down to slowly start back on it.

I then saw the specialist at the hospital this morning - he has said the mirror opposite - that I must have an estrogen definancie and as my bone density scan was very low - near to osteroposis setting in I must have treatment - HRT - he said the risk of breast cancer is not that high in people who have gone through the menopause at my age but not having treatment will increase this. He suggested having a coil fitted that realises progesterone and an Estrogen Patch or cream.

What is the truth please?

38 Replies

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  • Kitten-whiskers Who knows what the truth is, they all seem to have their own agenda and to be honest you can't trust any of them!

    What I would do is ask for a complete hormone profile to be done including all the sex hormones. You can't just guess that you are oestrogen dominant but you don't want to take HRT unnecessarily (well, I wouldn't take it at all but that's personal choice), you have to weigh up the pros and cons, look at the risks, etc. Read up about all the options before agreeing to take anything but insist on knowing what's going on with your hormones first.

  • Thank you SeasideSusie : >

  • I have been using natural progesterone cream for twenty years now, approx. 7 - 10 mgs applied transdermally, for 10 - 12 days out of the month (starting 10 days from start of period). If adrenals and other hormones are okay, addressing the body's natural drop in progesterone production as one become perimenopausal or menopausal can be very helpful. It cured my insomnia, anxiety, brain fog. It might be a good idea for you to read the book 'What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause' by Dr. John Lee. Educate yourself and decide for yourself. I think the book is available on Amazon.

    Also have your D3, Iron, B12, Thyroid and hormones measured and any problems, address them. It can be difficult to stabilize and optimize hormone supplementation and thyroid dosage if other things aren't normalized. Just speaking for myself but I would refuse ANY artificial, synthetic hormone supplementation, the things that mainstream medicine seems to peddle.

  • Thank you Phoenix, I have ordered that Dr John Lee Book. I was taking the progesterone cream twice daily 24 days out of every month - which are the guildline for normal use, I clearly need to tailor it to my needs.

    D3 was a little on the low side so I have been supplementing and B12 was really high so I have stopped that.

    I don't want anything the doctor gives me really, I will stick with the progesterone cream.

    Thank you very much

    Debs

  • Wow.. 24 days a month? The female body only produces 20 - 25 mgs daily for a 10 - 12 day span out of each month. I tried to take the full 20 mgs suggested by Dr. Lee but it made me too sleepy and gave me a heavy, draggy sensation in my lower back, kinda like I would get that day or so occasionally before my period would start. I was grateful that the natural progesterone cream 'cured' my sudden-onset insomnia but I didn't want to be sleepy all the time... lol. I only take one dose of the cream at bedtime.

    Just a heads up... some creams are useless yam cream and others have oils and ingredients in the cream that can hinder absorption of the progesterone (assuming they contain the amount of progesterone they are supposed to have) so try to stick with the better, well-known brands and don't go just by price. Glad you have ordered Dr. Lee's book. It will be a huge help to you.:)

  • Morning Phoenix, Thank you for the info, very helpful indeed.

    I use Wellsprings as it has been so helpful to many, I guess the normal dose is just too much for me. I am sure the book will be just what I need.

    Best wishes

    Debs

  • One thing that I find really strange in this context is that Wellsprings for instance (producer of progesterone AND combined progesterone + estrogen cream) recommends that peri- and postmenopausal women use the cream from day 14-28 of cycle...even the cream containing both estrogen and progesterone. That is the opposite of what all so called hormone doctors and other doctors recommend; that is, to take estrogen (if needed) from day 5-25 of cycle, and progesterone from day 15-25 of cycle. That is supposed to mimic how the menstrual cycle works...

  • But what about estrogen as you approach peri-menopause...? The Hertoghe doctors in Belgium (I am seeing one) prescribe both E and P, whereas many conventional doctors (including gynecologists) seem to think that P is enough unless you have had a hysterectomy. I have not been able to figure out the exact relationship between estrogen therapy and the increased cancer risk...thanks for the tip about the book, it sounds very interesting and I realise I need to read it even if I am seeing a so called "top doc"...because all this conflicting advice is really confusing:-(

  • anna... It can be a complicated subject. Most of us have and make plenty of estrogen. We never stop making estrogen. It's levels just drop enough so that we don't have periods any longer (perfectly normal if we live long enough). It is unopposed estrogen that gives us problems and leads to estrogen dominance. Tests may show that our estrogen levels are just fine (not high at all) but we experience symptoms of estrogen dominance since we are no longer producing any progesterone to offset the estrogen... to blunt it's effects. Think of estrogen as the 'fire' and progesterone as the 'water'.

    Progesterone seems to slowly start to balance out all our hormones. Thus, insomnia can be one of the first symptoms that is 'cured' by supplementing natural progesterone cream since melatonin, the sleep hormone, is one of the body's hormones and progesterone will help to bring it into balance.

    It is also found that often, progesterone supplementation helps to sensitize our body's cells to the effects of the various hormones. One can even find one experiencing estrogen dominance the first few months of progesterone supplementation because the progesterone is re-sensitizing our cells to the effects of estrogen. So, being patient, observant and not overdoing anything for that first few months might be valuable in determining progesterone dosage and whether or not estrogen supplementation is necessary.

    As you noted, progesterone/estrogen supplementation may be a necessity for some women but not all.

    Edit ... ** Not to knock all docs but some don't even acknowledge the condition of 'unopposed estrogen' or 'estrogen dominance' and just want to throw more estrogen at us.... the last thing most of us need.

  • Very well explained Phoenix,

    Thank you.

    J 🍀

  • So true...it's like once you hit 40, you need estrogen, no matter what your symptoms are...and they could be screaming "estrogen dominance" or "unopposed estrogen" right back at you....

    Before I went to see my current doc, I was on Thyro-Plex for women for a couple of years, and sure enough...it's intended for women over 40, "because that is when your glands start to slow down" as stated on bottle, and it contains both estrogen and progesterone (bovine ovary). So it's really difficult to resist...

    I have also read what you say; that is, that we never stop making estrogen; that even the liver can produce estrogen, so that we never really end up estrogen deficient (unless we have had our ovaries surgically removed)...

    I am tempted to go off estrogen this time, and just stay on progesterone and see what happens...

  • So funny...I have been suffering from insomnia lately, after never having any problems going to sleep whatsoever...I used to be able to fall asleep anywhere, anytime...! So very interesting info, thank you so much!!!:-)

  • That is what happened to me. I used to laugh that you could hang me on a hook anywhere, anytime and I would sleep like the dead. Suddenly, I was tossing and turning. Then I would wake up every few hours, ready to go to work and have a devil of a time getting back to sleep. When it got really bad, I would just give up and get up whether it was 4 - 5 - 6 am. I would wake up more tired than when I went to sleep. Taking melatonin tabs would help a little with getting drowsy and getting to sleep but did little or nothing about getting back to sleep.

    After a few days/weeks of taking natural progesterone cream, getting drowsy again and getting to sleep was absolutely delicious..lol.. In so many ways, natural progesterone cream gave me my life back. Hubby could just walk in the room and breath and I was ready to take his head off. Poor guy. He, especially, was grateful for the progesterone cream.

  • I find this article pretty interesting, with a comparison of symptoms in estrogen deficiency and dominance respectively:

    cycleharmony.com/remedies/h...

    For as long as I can remember, I have had dark clots during periods, but never made the connection to possible estrogen dominance...

    I take it that if you are in fact estrogen dominant, and not estrogen deficient, taking estrogen will only make matters worse, even if you take progesterone as well...?

  • anna... good article but I had symptoms of both estrogen dominance and deficiency...lol. That is the beauty of supplementing natural progesterone. It sensitizes the cell receptors so that the estrogen that we do make is more effective.

    Years ago when I was researching all this, I ran across a doctor's article in which he likened women becoming perimenopausal and their emotions being all over the place to a similarity with what teenage girls exhibit.... heightened emotions, inability to cope and just being a pain in the behind generally..LOL. I always remember and think of that when hearing women bemoan the fact that they don't recognize themselves anymore (this would be before hormone supplementation).

    To your question, yes. Supplementing estrogen can make matters worse. I just think it is wise to go low and slow with natural progesterone. After a few months, if most symptoms haven't resolved using the progesterone, it might be time to have the sex hormones lab checked. Saliva tests are more accurate than blood tests.

    Do read Dr. Lee's book. It gives a great overview of our hormones and how they work and it isn't just for menopausal/perimenopausal women. With all the xenoestrogens (fake estrogens) in our food/environment, women are experiencing hormone problems at earlier and earlier ages.

  • I also have symptoms of both...after finding this article, things made more sense:

    johnleemd.com/hormone-balan...

    I filled everything in without having looked at the answers first, to avoid being influenced by them. The result, based on the number of boxes ticked: I suffer from excess estrogen and cortisol deficiency. The latter I am aware of; I spent a few years on Medrol, prescribed by my hormone doctor, but managed to wean off it earlier this year. Unfortunately, it seems difficult to find a good OTC product to effectively deal with adrenal fatigue...thinking back, even though I felt good on Medrol, I wonder if it ever really did anything except suppress my own adrenal glands...I did not like the idea of staying on it indefinitely, which is why I decided to wean off it.

  • I wish I was more knowledgeable about adrenal conditions but I plead ignorance. I do know that balancing hormones and optimizing thyroid med dosages can be a real challenge if one suffers with adrenal problems and/or inadequate iron levels. Some use hydrocortisone cream (over the counter) to help with adrenal issues once they have taken the 24 hr saliva cortisol test and confirmed the diagnosis. Adrenals run on salt so some folks consume an adrenal 'cocktail' that helps support adrenal function. I think you can google/search 'adrenal cocktail' and see what is said. :)

  • What an excellent response Phoenix - superb

  • I am on natural progesterone cream ,day 5, check out info on the site wellsprings , they sell 2 creams ; one is natural progesterone and the other is 20-1, with a little estrogen, and a chart explaining the two creams .My spirits lifted as soon as I started the cream.

  • Thank you Linda

  • I have been looking into the combined cream (20 to 1) by Wellsprings as I take both E and P; E as cream day 5-25 of cycle and Utrogestan pills (progesterone) day 15-25 of cycle. But the instructions on Wellspring's website say that if you still have your periods, you should use the 20 to 1 cream from day 14-28 of cycle, which means you start P and E at the same time. Normally, you start taking E in the first week after your period, and P only at the end of the second week of cycle. Has anyone tried this product and can explain a bit more in detail how it works...?

  • The Mirena coil does not contain progesterone. It contains a synthetic, patentable copy called progestin and the medical profession and freaking big pharma have done their very best to confuse the two so that finding out information about what you're putting in or on you body is well nigh impossible. Be very careful K-W; progesterone is a powerful hormone and I have paid ( Lordy) money to be told by an HRT mad 'specialist' that progesterone cream is sooo mild I could take it every day if I wanted...and why don't I have some of this nice HRT instead ? Hmmm? I know your mum and aunt had breast cancer but you're young for menopause and it probably won't do any harm, the statistics are on your side. Whaaat? You freaking take it then, you buffoon. The books of John Lee are an excellent starting point for your journey.

    Can I just add - this is a cruel and horrible world K-W and you have to find your own truth in a sea of lies. Good luck. Best to you xx

  • Thank you Ranpunzel, I really appreciate your honesty. I have ordered the book.

    I was told have as much progesterone cream as you like as it has no side effects, which does seem to be true, but for us poorly souls that receptors have fallen asleep, all hell lets loose.

    I will be declining the treatment from the doctors

    Thank you

    Debs

  • Do you have blood test results for sex hormones? You can be both oestrogen and progesterone deficient, but they need to be in the correct balance (also testosterone and DHEA). I wouldn't get a coil fitted - it'll be horse pee and fake progesterone (the really nasty stuff) and coils are horrid to your insides. I'd get a consultation with a specialist in bio-identicals and get a prescription made up to your needs. Or, if your symptoms aren't that bad, try herbal/traditional remedies.

  • Hello Angel-of-the-North,

    I won't be having the coil fitted thats for sure. The Luteinising Hormone and the Foilicular Stimulating Hormone were what was tested.

    I would have put up with the Menopause symptoms but the specialist said I must have treatment because of the low density scan showing that I was very near to osteroposis, of course now i will need to have progesterone if I do have estrogen dominance.

    Best wishes

    Debs

  • LH and FSH only tell you if you are menopausal or not. You need oestrogen, progesterone, testosterone and DHEA tested to see what treatment you need (if any). What about vit D, K2 and weight bearing exercise?

  • Hello Angel_of_the_North, Will a GP test the Progesterone, Estrogen etc, I had DHEA tested privately about four years ago and it was fine.

    I now take a liquid vitamin D3 & K2 supplement and do quite a bit of walking

  • I don't know what the NHS test as I get mine done privately

  • Thank you Angel_of_the_north, I think I will get tested. I see the homeopathic nutritionalist Wednesday - she maybe able to help

    Best wishes

  • I agree with many of the previous posts. I'm forty and was diagnosed with early menopause last year. My symptoms came tumbling apon me and were quite horrible. I take bio identical estrogen, progesterone and testosterone. It was the best decision I ever made. When you go through early menopause it's ok to take HRT, because your body would have normally been making them at this age any way.

  • Thank you Hormone-mess, where did you get the testerone from?

  • I'm in the states! I go to a naturopath in Boulder Colorado.

  • Oh I see, I will need to seek out a professional in uk then.

    Thank you for your help

  • I suggest you have a doctor who specializes in female hormones do a blood panel before you change anything. I was estrogen high, progesterone low, and have been taking bioidentical progesterone for a couple years. I would not to anything synthetic or take any estrogen product without knowing you need it and without a panel to show you, it is very risky to take if you don't need it.

  • Hello Sandy,

    Thank you for your reply. I won't be taking anything the doctor has to offer thats for sure. I was taking natural progesterone, it has appeared to have brought on estrogen dominance but without tests its very difficult to say what exactly is going on. I did see a test but it was very expensive :<

    I will keep searching

  • I have never really read about natural progesterone bringing on high estrogen ( and I did tons of research and reading) before I took mine, it helps balance out the high estrogen, usually. Grab any of dr. Lee's books, and read read read. My high estrogen came down when I balanced it with my progesterone, but I also made sure to get my vitamin d up, took an over the counter supplement to help bring estrogen down, but also watched little things like checking ingredients I use on my body that are estrogenic, like perfumes, body wash, regular sunscreen, soaps, language ingredients that increase your estrogen, but if you don't research, you wont know.

  • Sorry, my hormones levels were only just done with regular blood tests, which are covered in Canada, my bioidentical progesterone is also covered by my insurance.

  • Hello Sandy,

    Thank you for your reply. I think that was me not wording it correctly.

    I was told that if my receptors had gone to sleep as it were then taking progesterone cream would wake them up causing estrogen dominance - if my receptors hadn't gone to sleep this never would have happened.

    I am reading one of Dr Lees books at the moment, It is all been rushed into because I am very near to having osteoporoisis. That has clearly back fired, so i have had to stop the progesterone cream til things settle down, apparently it can take up to 3 months.

    Best wishes

    Debs

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