60 years old, not on any tablets, but..

[claretsmad]

Hi everyone,

Fairly new to this, but I would like your views and opinions on my situation,

I would rather take notice of normal real people like you who have experience in these kind of things.

I've always been against just taking tablets and drugs for a long time, antibiotics , vaccinations, flu jabs, all that kind of stuff, I just don't have a lot of confidence in the NHS, the way they just go with the flow with the pharmaceutical industry, pushing these chemicals into us.

However it's looking like things may have to change.

But then maybe not!

As the title said, I'm 60 years old, and about 2 years ago I somehow caught a urinary tract infection, I drank plenty of fluoride free water, and loads of cranberry juice and it cleared up,

But it did start me checking one or or two other things eg. Blood test, urine test and other stuff.

Anyway cut a long story short, in the last 12 months TSH and TP antiodies been up and down, so I've just been watching them,

Last 3 months I have put on 2 stone in weight, and become a lot more sleepier than normal, and not as much energy about me.

Anyway the situation at the moment is

Silava test on adenals with Genova, all within range but on lower end

Blood test on thyroid function with Genova, TSH...11.5, T4...73 in range but lower end, Free T4.... 12.8 again just in range but lower end, all T3s in range,....Free T3.... 4.4, Reverse T3...0.26, T4.T3 ratio.... 2.9,

Thyrogobulin TG..... 305 high.

Thyoid peroxidase antibodies TPO.....781 high.

Just been to see a thyroid specialist

He's said I have a thyroid problem, and has recommended, I take nutri adenal supplements for 10 days to sort out adrenals, then start on

Nature-throid 2 grains, and asked me to get back in touch after the 10 days

or before if there's any problems,

It's been 4 days now, I seem OK in general, but have been short of breath after short brisk walks the last 2 days, which isn't normal for me.

Anyway what do you think?

The only symptoms I have, are that Im feeling tired more than usual, and the weight gain thing, nothing else, do I really have to start taking drugs, or if I'm catching it soon enough is there another alternative?

Somebody mentioned Naltrexone, can help to reverse high TPO, and TSH, does anybody know anything about it, or have had any experience of it?

If anybody as an opinion, or views or can help in anyway,

Please let me know.

Thank you.

Ken

P's I have to keep fit and strong, I have a beautiful little 11 month old daughter,,,,,,, yes I said daughter, not grand daughter.......everything's fine in that department, not bad for 60 eh?

[CarolineC57]

Hi - sorry it's a quick response. I'm relatively new to all this too so there will be people who can better advise you than me. But I just wanted to say one thing ... Neither Nature-throid nor nutri-adrenal are "drugs". They're both *natural* thyroid/adrenal support. So these are probably the non-drug/non-chemical alternatives you're looking for!

[claretsmad in reply to CarolineC57]

Thanks Caroline, it would be good to think I'm not taking anything synthetic... although who knows, hopefully I will be able to manage with the natural stuff if I do the right things.

ken

[ROMM53]

Hi, I agree with rfu, 2grains is a very high starting dose-equivalent to 200mcg Thyroxine. Usually start at 1/2 grain and increase by 1/4 grain every fortnight. You are probably over-medicated hence the shortness of breath.

Also, Nature-throid is definitely NOT a thyroid support -it is a medication-it replaces what the functioning thyroid gland should be making in a "well" human-being.

You definitely need it, with a TSH that high, but 2 grains is way too large a dose to be commenced on

[CarolineC57 in reply to ROMM53]

Isn't Nature-throid a brand of NDT? What I was trying to say is, it's a natural thyroid hormone replacement, not a drug.

[CarolineC57 in reply to CarolineC57]

... although now you've got me thinking I might be wrong.

[claretsmad in reply to ROMM53]

Hi Rachel

The only thing I'm taking at the moment is the 40 mg natural bovine whole adrenal, half a tablet, I'm not taking thyroid stuff at the moment.

thank's

ken

[CarolineC57]

Nope. Just checked, Nature-throid IS a brand of NDT. NDT stands for natural dessicated thyroid. It's a natural form of thyroid hormone replacement - as opposed to levothyroxine, which is a synthetic form.

So, as I said, both nature-throid and nutri-adrenal are natural forms of thyroid and adrenal treatment - you aren't putting "drugs" in your system when you take these.

[ROMM53 in reply to CarolineC57]

Hi.

Nature thyroid is definitely a NDT drug / medication, manufactured by the pharmaceutical company- RLC labs in the US. It is a prescription only medication, drug , etc. Yes, it is derived from porcine thyroid gland, so you can think of it as a "more natural" medication, but it is still a prescription only hormone replacement drug, as are the other NDTs armour, erfa etc. They replace the thyroid hormones that the body is incapable of producing anymore in hypothyroidism.

Comparable to the historical treatment of type 1 diabetes with porcine derived insulin.

There are ways of obtaining prescription only thyroid medications without a prescription, but that is a different topic.

Nutri-thyroid and Nutri-adrenal are some sort of supplement. They are not hormone replacement therapy, not medication or drugs; and of dubious efficacy.

[claretsmad]

Ps my names ken

[bobsmydog in reply to claretsmad]

[Clutter in reply to claretsmad]

Claretsmad, Ron Moody married at 61 and had 6 children

It may be the adrenal supplement making you breathless or it could be low thyroid hormone.

2 grains Naturethroid is too much to take, start with half a grain (30mg) and increase by half a grain every two weeks.

thyrophoenix.com/adjusting_...

NDT should be taken with water on an empty stomach one hour before, or two hours after, food and drink, 2 hours away from other medication and supplements and, 3 hours away from calcium, iron and vitamin D.

[claretsmad in reply to Clutter]

Thanks clutter

Active hormone T3s is ok, and still just on whole adrenal by nutri- meds at the moment up to 60 mg 8am and 1 pm. maybe it's just a transition period.

thanks keep in touch clutter, I will let you know what's happening.

Cheers

ken

[claretsmad]

Rfup123 and Rachel you both say I will be taking them for life yet I haven't started taking anything for thyroid yet.

do I have to start taking them, just because of blood test and silava test, even though physically I've only put on weight and feel a bit tired, is it definitely just the start, or can I stop it evolving or improve myself by other means?

thanks

Ken.

[ROMM53 in reply to claretsmad]

Hi Ken. Sorry assumed from your post that you had started on the nature-throid. Looking at your TSH of 11.5 that would seem a clear hypothyroidism diagnosis but it's really difficult to interpret without the range. Would it be possible to give your ranges?

[claretsmad in reply to ROMM53]

Yes Rachel

I will put the range on here later today.

itsthe same range as genova though.

thanks.

[Hidden]

No one can be in any doubt that you need treatment. The only mystery is that you are not feeling worse. And personally I wouldn't worry about whether it's a drug or not - what matters is that it works for you.

[Hidden]

Others will comment who are far better qualified than I. You should get your serum ferritin checked and B12 and Vit D if you haven't already. If you improve those you might help your body. But your realistic course of action is to take the pills.

[claretsmad in reply to Hidden]

Aspmama, yes with everything I read on here with that TSH, those TPO, you'd think I would be suffering big time, but no I feel fine, just a bit tired than usual, but body clock's running OK and everything, no hair loss no nail damage, sleeping OK, its strange. Did you look at my full test results from genova, T4 reading's are quite low even though they are in range, T3s are OK, TSH and TPOS are high.

Checked Vit D and b12. Ferritin all fine and within range.

Did get another test for TSH and TPOs they also came out high

Not grumbling, but it's strange

Hope tomorrow some others may know more a will respond to my plea for knowledge of some kind.

[Hidden in reply to claretsmad]

"Within range" unfortunately means little because the evidence range for nutrient levels is p*** p***. Can you find your actual ferritin reading? But my guess is that it is fairly optimal, 80 or over, because you have no hair loss and few symptoms.

Did you have a massive bout of viral infection shortly before your antibodies appeared? And how did you come to test for TSH and antibodies if you were only feeling a "bit tired"?

When did it start, do you think?

It could be that you are reacting differently to the antibody assault from most people here because you are male.

It could be that you have some signs, like foot pain, that you haven't linked to the thyroid but are putting down to a sports injury, for example.

Or it could be that it is a fairly recent "molecular mimicry" antibody reaction and it hasn't hit your body big time yet.

Clutter and Reallyfedup are the business, (I'm sure the others are too, but those are very familar names from the boards) and they Will Be Right.

You are a very interesting puzzle though!

[jimh111]

I'm not very impressed with your doctor. In hypothyroidsm the adrenals can sometimes underperform but whilst you are hypothroid clearance of adrenal hormones (and other substances) is impaired. Thus although your adrenals might (rarely) underperform the clearance of the hormones is reduced and in general such patients have mildly elevated adrenal hormone levels.

A problem can (rarely) occur when a patient who has been substantially hypothyroid for a long time (and so has weakened adrenals) starts to take thyroid hormones. The clearance problem clears up quickly but the adrenals take time to recover. The net result is that adrenal hormone levels can fall rapidly leading to what is called an Addisonian crisis. This is very rare. The best solution is to start the patient on a low dose of hormone. For people under 60 this would be 50 mcg levothyroxine (or half grain of NDT) and for over 60s or those with a heart condition 25 mcg levothyroxine. In any event two grains is far too much and in most cases of simple hypothyroidism would be more than the optimal dose. (Many people who do not do well on levothyroxine, or have complex forms of hypothyroidism do need two grains or more). In the majority of patients any adrenal weakness will resolve naturally when their thyroid hormone is increased gradually.

Your blood tests and high antibody counts suggest you have autoimmune primary hypothyroidism which should respond to thyroid hormone supplementation.

As an aside I don't believe the total T4 or reverse T3 figures are of any use, so if it will save you money I'd not bother with these. Also Nature thyroid and levothyroxine are not really drugs, they are hormones that we produce naturally, but of course how much you take matters.

I'd strongly advise you not to start on more than half grain and wait a few weeks before increasing it, if you need to. Two grains is far too much to start on and could lead to a cardiac event, especially as it contains 'T3' the active hormone which will accumulate rapidly.

[claretsmad in reply to jimh111]

Sorry for miss information, just double checked, his handwriting is terrible like most Doctors, I'm sure its part of there training st medical school but after second check it does say 1 grain to start, I can only presume, he's weighed everything up a believes that I will be OK on 1 grain to start, maybe it's because I'm a biggish chap at 5.10 and 17 stone. Don't know really, but I'll ask him before I start, if I start, I'm still reluctant., and want to be sure before I go on this roller coaster.

[jimh111 in reply to claretsmad]

Your history and blood test results point to primary hypothyroidism, that is a failing thyroid gland which will progressively get worse. If you were prescribed levothyroxine it might be reasonable to start on 100 mcg given you are 17 stone because levothyroxine has a long half life and takes many weeks to build up in your system. The T3 in NDT has a half life of a day or two and so reaches a plateau within about a week. For that reason I'd start on half grain. Although some people need NDT I'd prefer to try levothyroxine first as it has the longer half life but more importantly it is easier to interpret the blood test results when taking levothroxine (although symptoms are just as important).

It is most likely your thyroid gland is failing and will eventually stop producing. So there really isn't an alternative to replacing the hormone your gland is not producing. The way to avoid a roller coaster is to start off on a modest dose and gradually increase. I can understand your doctor wishing to jump in at a full replacement dose which is a strategy conventional endocrinologists take when the bloods show more severe hypothyroidism. I'd prefer a more gradual approach which would remove the need for any adrenal supplements. Although you may notice an improvement within a week or two it usually takes around six months for a hypothyroid patient to be back to normal.

I am a patient not a doctor.

[claretsmad in reply to jimh111]

Jim thanks for those comments, very much appreciated.

[ROMM53 in reply to claretsmad]

Hi greygoose+jimh have given you some really good advice there. Quite a few of us on this forum started off with thyroxine , went downhill and had to resort to this forum to find alternative medication/information to recover our health. But we are a minority; the fact is that most people with hypothyroidism do fine on replacement with thyroxine. So that should be first line treatment.

[claretsmad in reply to ROMM53]

Thanks Rachel,

your input is much appreciated.

Take care

ken

[claretsmad]

No rfu123 , the b12, vit d, and ferritin are all about mid range or more, but not to high thankfully.

ken

[greygoose in reply to claretsmad]

Vit B12 should be at least 1000 - to hell with the ranges, they're a nonsense. The Japanese range starts at 500! You can't overdose on B12, but the symptoms of low B12 are horrendous and permenant, so get supplementing now before it gets any worse - which it probably will as you get more hypo and the level of your stomach acid drops.

About 1000 sublingual methylcobalamin daily should do the trick, and take a B complex with it because the Bs all work together and need to stay balanced.

Do you understand what those TPO antibodies signify? It means you have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. And the antibodies are attacking your thyroid gland because they mistakenly mistake it to be the enemy (put simply). If unchecked, they will just go on until the gland is destroyed and you can no-longer make any thyroid hormone. And you cannot live without any thyroid hormone. However, if you start taking the thyroid hormone replacement now, you can restrict the damage done. Your TSH needs to be suppressed. No gland activity = no antibody activity. And, although you Don't have much in the way of symptom - although, personally, I would consider weight-gain to be THE worst possible symptom - the antibodies themselves can make you feel ill.

There is no 'natural' replacement - like vitamins or minerals, although you need them, too - for hormones. So many people ask that question, and the answer is just no. You cannot repair a damaged gland with vitamins and minerals. You have to replace the hormone that it can no-longer make.

NDT is so-called Natural Desicated Thyroid, but what does that mean? It means that the hormone itself comes from pigs' glands, but the tablets still contain all the fillers and stuff that the synthetic type do, so Don't go over-board about the 'natural' bit! In fact, a lot of Hashi's people find that NDT doesn't suit them and that they're better off on the synthetic stuff - especialy T3 - oh, and I wouldn't call your FT3 good, I would call it low. But you need what you need. And you absolutely need something - whatever suits you best - or things are going to degenerate badly.

Millions of people live happily on thyroid hormone replacement. Just because it's 'for life' doesn't mean it's in some way bad. After all, diabetics are on insulin 'for life'. The 'for life' bit really isn't that big a deal. It's certainly better than the alternative! lol

Hugs, Grey

[claretsmad in reply to greygoose]

Greygoose, thank you so much for you help, I do try to keep smiling, but I do realise I'm on the edge of something that's going to take some good management.

But then with the help of good people like you, it does make it it easier, with some of the knowledge and wisdom, and experiences from you and clutter and Jim and some of the others on this forum, you are all a god send for a lot of people on this forum, again thanks I really appreciate your help.

take care

Ken.

[greygoose in reply to claretsmad]

You're more than welcome, Ken.

[Treepie]

Yes BMI may be used to estimate dosage. You are lucky to have a doc who prescribes NDT. Hardly any do. Symptoms develop over time ,with hindsight mine were first noticeable around two years before I was diagnosed when I was in late 60's. It is very likely that you would have become progressively I'll without the treatment.

[Spanglysplash]

Leaving the thyroid untreated will lead to a number of health issues later for example heart faliliure is the biggy. Untreated thyroid will also cause long term issues with your adrenal glands as they will try to take up the slack.

Your treatment protocol sounds like Dr P to me.....am I right?

[claretsmad in reply to Spanglysplash]

Yes Spangly, your right,

I've not convinced my Gp yet about NDTS, I have been telling him that I will more than likely be allergic to thyroxine, mentioning lactose and cornflower, by the way is there anyway else I could be a named patient basis.

I'm hoping he may priscribe me on a named patient basis. Special circumstances.

It may work if I say the right things, I will try again this week, at the moment I have stocked up a bit on 300 2 grain, and 100 4grain nature-throid.

Ken

[Spanglysplash in reply to claretsmad]

Good luck with convincing your GP, it's worth a try but as they have to put their neck on the line they more often than not shy away. Although many seem to be happy to do monitoring bloods if you are self medicating.

[Hidden]

Have a look at Heloise's post and link.

[Ruthi]

I have been hypothyroid for years, my adrenals slowly got worse over the last few years. You have NO idea how much research I have done into these two over the years!

I am assuming your specialist is not part of the NHS!

Personally I am not a fan of the adrenal extracts. The actual function of the adrenals is rarely the problem, it is usually to do with the communication from hypothalamus/pituitary to the adrenals. Adding adrenal extract to the mix doesn't really help.

It would be worth your while reading up on 'Adrenal Fatigue'. But to be honest, just sleep disturbance is enough to mess up the delicate adrenal hormones. Not easy when you have a baby!

I would suggest you start with Magnesium supplements, and generally clean up your diet. Lots of fresh veg, cut out the ready made stuff and sugar.

You DO need thyroid meds and Nature throid is a good one. But start with half a tablet at a time, and increase gradually, at no more than half a tablet more every two weeks. Get yourself tested again at 1.5 tablets after being on them for at least two weeks, but six would be better!

Sadly, once the thyroid starts to underperform, it rarely recovers. So that does mean medication for life. Whether its synthetic or from natural sources won't change your need for it, or the fact that it is medication. In your case you have autoimmune thyroiditis, and although diet changes like cutting out gluten can slow progress, its unlikely that things will ever be as they were when you were 30!

[claretsmad in reply to Ruthi]

Thank you Ruth, your input into trying helping me with my health

is really really so much appreciated.

Ps, I am nearly a vegetarian, I still eat fish, but do try to stay away from processed food, and sugary stuff.

And tend to have molasses in my porridge...

Thanks again

take care Ken.

[Spanglysplash in reply to claretsmad]

Many people find avoiding gluten and dairy helps with bringing their antibody numbers down. Watch out for things that cross react as gluten for example corn/maize and I think soy is a culprit too.

[Ruthi in reply to claretsmad]

To be honest, its not an ideal breakfast - low in protein and high in carbs and gluten, no vegetables. You set yourself up for blood sugar swings and carb cravings for the day with a breakfast like that.

Molasses is still sugar! Try switching to cinnamon! And try yoghurt instead of porridge!

There several arms to treatment here. One is to sort out your thyroid status. One is to look at your low(ish) cortisol, but if you sleep OK when you get the chance I wouldn't be overly concerned at this stage, and just watch how it panned out. The last is diet. I found eating paleo was too hard on my adrenals, but eating largely paleo (which is basically meat/fish/eggs and veg, but low in carbs, low sugar fruits like berries rather than the really sweet ones) was a bit hard on my adrenals. When I added in small amounts of very complex carbs (root veg or pulses) I did much better.

I have been gluten free for several years, and it certainly helped with energy levels, and digestive issues.

[claretsmad]

Thanks for letting me know that I'm way over weight 123, but hey never mind I've still got my charm, cherisma and good looks.

Take care x

[claretsmad]

Blame what? on my body 123?

I'm very happy with my body,, and my life... lovely family who are all very happy. smile and the world smiles with you..

Take care x

[claretsmad]

Thanks for your input reallyfed up.

[claretsmad in reply to claretsmad]

I will take note of all your advice rufedup.

Hope I've not upset you, if I have please forgive me..I just always try to remain cheerful, no matter what life throws at me.

take care. God bless

Ken