I am in the throws of reading Chris van Tulleken's book Ultra-Processed People. It has been an eye opener. Not that one hasn't been aware of the harms of processed food but perhaps one has been unaware at how extensive it is and also how seemingly malicious for corporate gain?
What does come out is the ineffectiveness of various vitamins and supplements that we probably take to support our journey through PMRGCA.
He says that all vitamin pills are more or less useless and the best way to get the needed vitamin is through diet. Well I take and need magnesium, also vitamin D. Potassium I can be short of in spite of a high banana intake and coconut water. Calcium in the blood is not so good as it may (I'm guessing) indicate bone loss? Pure Cod Liver Oil is the best form of Vitamin D but shouldn't be taken if you are on blood thinners!! A huge subject! I have learned from this site that the best way to balance the gut flora is ASL#3 not the probiotic pills from the large vitamin suppliers. At the moment I am having a little trouble with digestion and I am relying on Kefir. It seems to help?
Anyway can any of you with your vast knowledge advise?
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Ridge
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I have always said that most supplements are unnecessary with a decent diet with plenty of fresh foods and I buy none. Vit D is different - and greatly disputed - but not really available through diet. Even fish oil only has so much and in combination with vit A so vit A overdose is a possibility if you get enough vit D. I take magnesium but more for atrial fibrillation - it is often used here to relieve an episode of arrythmia.
I think the UPF problem is a USA and, increasingly, a UK problem. Eating commercially produced food is the exception here in Italy - even restaurants cook from scratch and can tell you what is in their food as they made it themselves more often than not. Most people go home for lunch or eat in a local restaurant that offers a simple fixed price menu of the day - always recognisable items!
I do enjoy reading books on food, nutrients and medicines. I am currently reading Dr Tim Spector’s latest book Food for Life, I have also read his other books. I have just finished Food is Better Medicine than Drugs by Patrick Holford. We do seem to be starting to realise how important nutrition is. It is now being mentioned that people can be obese, but are suffering from malnutrition. There was one lady in the the States who weighed over 600 pounds suffering from malnutrition. There is a very interesting book called ‘Salt, Sugar, Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us’. I am a nutrition nerd! I have been shouting about the supplement manufacturers on this board for quite a while in that they are making a lot if money out of people when they could gave got a better result from eating a good diet. We must be careful though, sometimes we DO need supplements in ‘manufactured’ form and so we should not discount them.
I have been told I need Vit D! I shall look into Supertech’s reply. Do please read Ultra Processed People and let me/us know what you think and how it compares with your other readings when you have. It comes out in paperback in March - I think.
Did you hear the talk that Chris van Tullekin did at the Royal Institution on ultra processed food a couple of months ago? It is available on YouTube. I think it is effectively his book in a lecture! I think he is saying much the same everyone else is saying, what rubbish food a lot of us eat. Of course ultra processed foods are usually cheap and made tasty by the food giants.
Personally I would take vitamin D if suggested by your doctor. It is difficult to get vitamin D just through diet alone, we also need sunshine. So for anyone in UK, taking vitamin D in the winter months is not a bad idea.
I didn’t hear his talk. I get confused by various reports such as wine is bad then red wine is good etc so don’t really take too much notice. Although I have been wondering about the obesity epidemic- as I join in with these blessed steroids!! His book was an eye opener and rather shocking. Especially as the foods standard agency seems complicit.
I don’t believe any news any more without checking it out. The Daily Express is very fond of being pro and then anti red wine. It has become a joke. Read Salt Sugar Fat. Quite fascinating the way the food industry ‘creates’ our food. We really are still in the stone age regarding our gut microbes etc, at least people are starting to take a bit of notice. Tim Spector says each book he writes corrects things that were thought to be true when he had written the previous one. I was brought up in the country where we grew our own food and ate wild rabbits, so I suppose I have always cooked from scratch, which a lot of people do not seem to do any more.
My husband is American. I was very surprised when I went over to meet my future mum in law and she said she was going to bake a cake then proceeded to get out a Betty Crocker package mix! This was early 70s.
If you watch a lot of cooking videos the US concept of "cooking" is assembling ready-made things - like pasta, a pack of bolognaise sauce and white sauce and calling it homemade lasagne! I admit I rarely make my pasta now (though I have done) but I start with meat mince, canned tomatoes and milk and flour for the bechamel sauce. All my neighbours make their own tomato sauce from scratch. I don't get the use of packet mixes - you still have to add stuff. Victoria sandwich can be made just as quickly in a mixer with flour, sugar, eggs and butter and you KNOW what is in it.
And so many Americans are surprised that Europeans can taste the difference ...
The Chris van Tullekin lecture is at youtu.be/5QOTBreQaIk?si=wTV... Did you ever see the film Super Size Me where a guy eats hamburgers for a month? In fact Tim Spector got his son to live on just ultra processed food for a couple of weeks. Tim said his son has never forgiven him! It does seem if you always eat things like hamburgers all the time you do not get the reaction that those who have been eating a healthy diet and then just eat hamburgers or non nutricious foods for a time.
I think our bodies learn to re balance. A bit like taking steroids. They had a dramatic affect when I first took them at a very low dose by normal prescription-now although on a higher dose I can sleep etc. !?
Of course , he is correct when it comes to reducing our consumption of ultra processed foods , we should all steer clear of processed sugars , artificial sweeteners and additive filled foods to improve our health.The vitamin and mineral situation is not as simple , however.
The ideal would be that we would all get what we need from a well balanced nutrient rich diet while coping with a chronic illness or on medications .
And , obviously, that sort of " Diet for Life" is worth starting today to improve our ability to cope with our illnesses now and to help reduce risks in the future.
For many vitamins and supplements, we should check whether we actually need to get extra help first , or whether it's recommended to take the supplements because of the effects of our conditions on certain things (like Vitamin D is prescribed by medical professionals ) because otherwise , if we aren't getting low or Deficienct all we end up doing is creating really expensive wee.
But for some of us , on certain medications like PPIs or Steroids and more , our medications can cause changes in our stomach acid and guts ability to absorb as the same level of nutrients a generally healthy person would get from food or a standard oral supplement , and it has an affect over time no matter how good our diet may be.
Medicinally or Health issue induced Vitamin Deficiencies and Borderline levels are incredibly common , often overlooked in testing , and can have a huge impact on our general health and recovery.
This can be particularly true of B vitamins and Folate which then have an impact on our general health and ability to absorb Iron and Vitamin D.
These vitamins and minerals can also be harder to absorb , causing depleting stores and more symptoms like Fatigue , Joint pain and Brain Fog, cardiac changes , loss of hair , skin fragility and insulin and thyroid imbalance as we get older too, even if we are healthy and take no medication.
So then, vitamins and mineral supplements of a active or sublingual form become an important part of our Self Care rather than a waste of time and money. Preventing future or additional health issues for those whom are at risk.
It's why it becomes essential to become proactive with a medical condition or as we age and have your nutrient levels checked , at least annually, or more often if symptoms arise , allowing us to see that our levels are reducing , and if we are eating a healthy diet , then choose to take the sensible step to use supplements as an ongoing treatment , or until the low level is brought back into a healthy mid range to prevent other health problems from emerging.
The unfortunate thing that I found with much research , and especially books and speakers about Nutrition like Chris , is that the advice may be appropriate for the generally healthy population, but not for those whom already have health issues when often the need to take prescribed medications or vitamins can be the crucial element of preventative self care for those with chronic health conditions.
And then , often the speakers , if they aren't at the extreme end of the debate , have their words taken out of context with people making blanket "one size fits all" statements about how everyone should stop this and that , blaming and shaming people , or putting people off things which would generally benefit them in their individual circumstances, for not following the Natural Health party line.
We are not like for like with the average person that the debates relate to, so we need to consider that, and get some medical facts before making changes that could do us more harm than good. Especially when it comes to making decisions about whether we personally may need vitamins or not.
And I'm personally against blanket bans on certain foods , even the naughtiest, most highly processed ones, obesity and nutrition based health issues are far more complex than that sort of action could resolve.
Personally , I don't think that all the people whom have the odd chocolate hobnob as a very rare treat when they may be restricted in general because of their health needs should lose the chance of having that odd treat in an other wise hard situation just because others may over indulge and eat a whole packet in one sitting or choose to eat inappropriate foods every day.
Raising taxes and legal restrictions has not stopped the most determined from stopping smoking , drinking, taking illegal drugs or continuing to eat inappropriate foods that we all know will do us no good in large amounts. Better educate those that need help to improve their food choices and remind them of their personal responsibility to maintain better choices and portion controls instead without shaming them in the process.
Because all that occurs is that the unhealthy foods get substituted for others and the weight and health changes people expect don't occur.
I know plenty of people with obesity and health issues that have never eaten anything but homemade or nutritional foods for their entire lives. Have you ever seen the ingredients in many homemade raw ingredients protein bliss balls !!!
And many people , including me , who has eaten a very good diet throughout our lives still require supplements despite all those efforts.
Interesting post , thanks for adding it , take care , Bee
I have often wondered why those on benefits and food support can be so fat. It would seem they are eating more than their children. UPP explains all that. I haven’t read as widely as Piglette. Not sure I want to. It is a huge subject. In the 70s when my children were small food colouring was discussed. It was supposed to account for hyperactivity eventually called ADD!! I taught kids with Specific Learning Disorder/Dyslexia. I know many went undiagnosed in those days but they were coping in the system to some degree. Now there are so many labels. The continuum of Aspergers/Autism. Dyspraxia known then as the clumsy child. We have come a long way but then I think there are many more children with some kind of problem making recognition vital. Could it be diet? And gender issues - hormones? I jokingly thought it had to be in the water!!
Well done, Bee. Your usual well thought out and carefully reasoned response to a post. Each of us must think in terms of our own circumstances where supplements are concerned. I don't take many but I know why I think each one is good idea-- for me ! Thank you.
I use this company for my D3 + K2 although I take a lower amount. All their vitamins and minerals are free of fillers and binding agents. They can only sell online as the big pharmaceutical companies do not want them to be available in shops.
Have a look at their website it makes interesting reading about the different companies and who they are owned by.
They have an extensive range of products, many I have never heard of.
I have now and I have ordered from them. They arrived and I have started taking them. I suppose I shall never really know but I like their genuine approach.
It works when you click on the link in the email notification.
The message is basically this:
"Most people do not realize that the majority of listings on Amazon aren’t actually for items sold by Amazon—they’re sold by third-party sellers. A majority of third-party sellers are upstanding merchants, but unfortunately there is a growing list of unsavory merchants peddling fake merchandise, forcing large companies like Nike and Birkenstock to not even allow their products on the platform anymore. Fake toys, fake electronics, and fake shoes can be very unsettling for the consumer, especially when so many have complete trust in the marketplace.
However, fake merchandise is one thing, but fake products you ingest are another. Recently, NOW Foods and Host Defense Mushrooms have both found counterfeit versions of their own products on Amazon, making them issue a dire warning to anyone that purchases products on Amazon. This is a serious health hazard and something that is easily avoidable if you know what to look for. Join me as I dig in to what counterfeit products have been found, and how to be a much more informed shopper on Amazon."
Amazon is only a marketplace for 3rd party sellers - stick to reputable brands. Buying medications online from unknown sources is always a risk.
It would be great to get everything from fresh food alone. I'm on mainly a plant based diet but ours soils have become more depleted of minerals over the years from over farming so our veg aren't what they once were. And vit B12 is missing. Yes, there's marmite - but it is way too salty for me, much as I love it, and nutritional yeast (another great vit B source) is very high in zinc so I tread carefully. And as our skin is less able to make vit D as we get older, a vit D suppliment is useful too.
There are fortified cerials - a good source of vitamins and minerals - but they are ultra processed. Instead, I find it easier and reassuring to top up my diet most days with a low level food-sourced multi vitalmin and mineral. If my body doesn't require it, it will excrete it.
As you say , not everyone can get their nutrients from their diet fir various reasons , including medical ones.I have pancreatic enzyme insufficiency, so I have PET treatment but I still don't absorb enough B12 or Folates from foods despite that and so I require B12 injections and Folate infusion to stop me having recurring Vitamin B12 Deficiency Anaemia and Folate Deficiency.
Many people have medicinally induced or age related malabsorption problems because of the change in stomach acid and effectiveness of their metabolism in converting absorbed vitamins into their active useable forms.
Pernicious Anaemia and a tests for Intrinsic Factor are not the only reasons for B Complex malabsorption.
I now know many people whom are vegan or vegetarian and took supplements or ate Marmite and fortified food products whom still required a change to active B12 or Folate supplements as the became older or were taking certain medications because they couldn't metabolise the vitamins they were getting from food or ordinary oral supplements from a health food shop or from the GP.
I also know meat eaters , like myself , with a highly nutrients rich diet that still have deficiency problems and have received Recurrent malnutrition indicators in their blood . Many of them had no other preexisting conditions or took medications to explain this. Genetics , depleting resources and the eventual affect on age on the low levels of nutrients they were managing to absorb and metabolise finally tipped them over the edge in their 50's.
It's not just a female issue either.
Most people don't realise that fortified breads and cereals and standard vitamin supplements use the Folates and other nutrients that still need to be metabolised into active forms by the body and many people cannot do that well.
If you have the MTHFR gene mutation , you often cannot fully absorb Folates from supplements or fortified foods , and you are actually told to avoid these foods because they give you inaccurate test results as well as not improving the nutrient deficiency the absorption problem causes at some point to people with the mutation.
If you have problems with metabolising both B12 or Iron it is often incredibly hard to get this examined and diagnosed until problems keep occurring and you won't improve your problem , or anaemia , with diet or fortified food or standard oral vitamin supplements like Certain types of B12 , basic Folic Acid or Ferrous Iron whether they are bought over the counter or prescribed.
My Iron is also part of my Folate infusion now , and I get active B12 injections every 6-8 weeks because the deficiency also caused me neurological and cardiac problems. Previous to that I had to swap to active iron supplements because I could not absorb inactive iron. My inability to absorb B vitamins and Folates also left me with Vitamin D deficiency and borderline levels for over 18 months despite high dose oral Vitamin D because the D Vitamin was not being absorbed effectively without B vitamins in my system to metabolise it.
British weather and ,as you say , the reduced efficiency of us being able to absorb Vitamin D through skin because of the need for skin protection can eventually send our middle age levels under the bus,
Without getting the right treatment for B vitamin and Folate problems many people whom suffer malabsorption for various health , genetic or age related reasons end up with Vitamin D deficiency or recurring Anaemia because GPs have a habit of not testing for B Complex and Folate levels until a problem is seen in the blood. And then they assume that the problems will be resolved by a simple change of diet or basic oral supplement because gastric acid and metabolic issues are seldom even considered by doctors , even though they are common, have serious health implications and are often easily and cheaply resolved . And the solution causes a big improvement in the patients other health problems.
That's why for some people , even those whom are generally healthy and eat well , supplements of the right type are still necessary and important. And single supplements , in active or sublingual firm from recommended providers are usually the best option because most generic ones that the GP can prescribe still aren't right for the job.
Like you , I wish it was as easy to be able to spread a bit of Marmite on a piece of organic multi grain gluten free bread or to eat a bowl of porridge with nuts and fruits , I wouldn't have had the problem in the first place.
Have to add to the mix that I personally have found Vitamin K2 supplement to be helpful. This vitamin is probably very rare in the food that I eat because of the way livestock is raised in North America, although I do buy "organic" milk which *may* contain some Vitamin K2, probably not enough. Really I think we may have to take some supplements in certain places, like a North American city, just because those nutrients are no longer found in sufficient quantity in our food, no matter how healthily we try to eat.
Vitamin D can only be made from sunlight during a limited part of the year if you live outside a certain central range, the further North (or South) the shorter that period, just because of the angle of the sun. And I have heard that as we age our ability to make Vitamin D decreases.
I have had a hold request for the book from my library since forever it seems but it hasn't come to me yet. Had assumed it would be focusing on the foodlike substances modern people consume more than critiquing vitamins, but maybe the two go hand in hand?
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