Calcium with vitamin D and K?: Hello! thank you... - PMRGCAuk

PMRGCAuk
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Calcium with vitamin D and K?

MakingDo
MakingDo
โ€ข96 Replies

Hello! thank you again for all your continued support and comradeship.

I am currently quite excited because, since being diagnosed with PMR in March, i have just got my very first face to face appointment with a real life doctor! So I am busy re-reading all your advice so i can go armed with questions/requests! (I think he/she may retreat again quite quickly haha!)

Anyway, my current question is about calcium supplement. I know I need to take one with vitamin VD but they are SO BIG, I am struggling to swallow them so i'm just looking at alternatives. So, l would like your advice on the dose i need and also whether i need Vitamin K as well as D? (i follow a gluten, (almost) salt, processed sugar, dairy and meat free diet, but i eat eggs)

Thank you!

96 Replies
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Conundrum

I am taking Calci-D Min. Contains D3 and K2 (good for thinning blood for GCA suffers). Made by Jan de Vries Clinic

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Conundrum
Conundrum
in reply to Conundrum

...oh and suitable for veggies

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Conundrum

ok, thanks - i'll take a look at those - does the Min in the name mean they are small?

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Conundrum
Conundrum
in reply to MakingDo

no, I think it means mineral. Contains magnesium too, which is very helpful. I also drink raw milk which is from grass fed cows and contains nutrients lost during factory farming methods. It is delicious! Google for a dairy local to you.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Conundrum

euyuk!!!! sorry :)

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to MakingDo

i think your calci D min do seem like a good option, though - are they small enough to swallow easily? - 4 a day seems like a bit of a challenge!

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Conundrum
Conundrum
in reply to MakingDo

I take them is two's, they look a bit big but are squishy capsules, so not to bad. Big gulp! Take with food.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Conundrum

Ok, that sounds ok ๐Ÿ˜

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HeronNS

It's Vitamin K2 you will be looking for, and unless your diet includes products from animals which are grass fed (never grain fed) you are likely like most of us to be deficient in Vitamin K2 so it is a good idea to add that supplement. There are different kinds of calcium supplements. If you are in the UK and want yours paid for by the NHS I think your choices are rather limited. If you are able to select your own, then you will be able to find something easier to stomach. Be aware that your single dose of calcium in whatever form should not exceed about 4 or 500 mg as the body simply can't properly absorb more than that at a time. And take your calcium at a different meal than the pred as they interfere with each other. Pred for breakfast, calcium for lunch and supper, or near bedtime with a little food or yoghurt, easier on the stomach.

And how nice to actually see a real live doctor! I hope you will have a good relationship.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to HeronNS

Ah, thank you. I am in the UK but i am buying my own so I can chose. When you say single dose - most of them say i need to take two a day - so is that 500 per pill but 1000 per day?

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DorsetLady
DorsetLadyPMRGCAuk volunteer
in reply to MakingDo

Ask your doctor for Calcium and VitD supplement - goes by name of Adcal and itโ€™s chewable!

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to DorsetLady

ok, thanks!

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to MakingDo

Yes, no more than 500 per dose. It's also suggested that we check our dietary intake, because if you get a lot of calcium in your diet your need for a calcium supplement is not so great, even with the pred issue. There's info on line about optimum doses of calcium for various ages and gender. The best sources of calcium are really things like some leafy green veg, and in dairy some cheeses, and yoghurt. Less so liquid milk. I only drink milk in my tea, yet nevertheless I improved my bone density a significant amount in one year (my first year on pred) just through diet, a few supplements and appropriate exercise. Yoghurt is supposed to be particularly good for helping with calcium absorption.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to HeronNS

Ok - i eat loads of vegetables - of all colours - but no dairy other than eggs, so i reckon i probably need the supplement.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to HeronNS

So, several of them say Vitamin K but dont mention a number - does that mean it's not K2? - for example: boots.com/boots-calcium-wit...

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to MakingDo

It might just be Vitamin K1 although it's odd it doesn't say. Does it include the chemical name?

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to HeronNS

it says Vitamin K (Phylloquinone)

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to MakingDo

Yep, that's K1. Truthfully it makes no sense to me for one to take that as a supplement. It is definitely K2, menaquinone, which has the property of sending calcium to the bones. Vitamin K1 is important for blood clotting, so this Boots supplement would be contraindicated for anyone on blood thinners, for example.

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to MakingDo

On reflection, I don't know why they'd add Vitamin K1 to something as we can get loads of that in our food. It probably is K2.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to HeronNS

Phylloquinone is K1

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to PMRpro

Really? how on earth are we supposed to find all this stuff out without you guys!

1 like
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Sandy1947
Sandy1947
in reply to HeronNS

I have been taking K2 since you mentioned about a year ago. What is the amount you take?

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to Sandy1947

Why do they just dish out tablets willy nilly without explaining or giving options of other methods. When it is too late after we have researched ourselves leaves a lot to be desired.

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piglette

I take D3 Accrete Vit D and calcium, which are normal size and can be cut in half if preferred.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator

Probably since your diet has little of either.

I have not yet met a calcium supplement I must SWALLOW - they are to be chewed.

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piglette
piglette
in reply to PMRpro

D3 Accrete has to be swallowed. I get it on prescription.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to piglette

but as far as i can tell, D3 Accrete doesnt have vitamin K2

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piglette
piglette
in reply to MakingDo

I was replying to PMRProโ€™s comment on calcium supplements. D3-Accrete was what was prescribed by my doctor. If I want vitamin K I take it separately.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to MakingDo

You probably won't find one including K2 - and actually, I have never taken K2 in the 9 years I have taken calcium/vit D and my bone density hasn't deteriorated significantly, it was still firmly almost in the "normal for 30 year olds" range

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to PMRpro

Ah, ok. Thank you.

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to PMRpro

In answer to a question you put to me befor on another thread 'how old do you think I am' think you have just answered that '30'. ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

Now to question something on this thread ... How do I know if they have tested the strength of my bones or whether I need calcium. I am on AA Adcal and lanzaporole as well as pred.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Suffererc

It isn't strength they test, it is bone density. Only by doing a dexascan which measures the density of the bone at the hip and several vertebrae.

nhs.uk/conditions/dexa-scan/

30 is the age and average density they compare you with - I only wish I were! I've had PMR for over 14 years - I'd have been a teenager when it started ;-)

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to piglette

Adcal-D3 is available on prescription as Effervescent tablets. I couldnโ€™t swallow the rock solid torpedoes, and youโ€™re not supposed to crush them!

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piglette
piglette
in reply to ClarkB

I am fine with the tablets, I forgot notice they a line across for breaking up smaller. I am not that sure I would like effervescent tablets.

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to piglette

A little bit like the vitamin C effervescent ones

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piglette
piglette
in reply to ClarkB

Donโ€™t like those either, although I do not take vit C as I am not deficient according to my blood tests. Obviously my diet is covering it.

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to piglette

I wish I had printouts of blood test results, as I forget everything, and donโ€™t know if Iโ€™m deficient or not!

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piglette
piglette
in reply to ClarkB

I did ask for printouts from the beginning but I am a nerd. I now get the info on-line which shows me the blood test results so I no longer needs printouts. It even draws graphs for me. Do you have the facility to look at your results on-line?

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to piglette

I donโ€™t think so. Will check, but I renew prescriptions on line and havenโ€™t checked anything else. Would be handy, even if I donโ€™t understand, someone else would!

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piglette
piglette
in reply to ClarkB

If you can get prescriptions on line you may be able to extend to seeing your test results. In my case I had to do it as two goes and take my passport to the surgery for test results and they updated their computer system for me to access them.

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to piglette

Iโ€™ll try and see what I can do. Itโ€™s just handy to have a reference and monitor the changes in scans!

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Pastit
Pastit
in reply to PMRpro

Yes defiantly, one would have to be a horse to swallow the thing!

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to Pastit

No it would give a horse 'choke' ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to PMRpro

My supplements are capsules, not solid tablets, so are to be swallowed. The only chewable calcium I've encountered is Tums!

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to HeronNS

Many European calcium/vit D supplements are chewable - I've had at least 3 different brands.

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to PMRpro

They probably are here, too.

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Brizzleben
Brizzleben
in reply to PMRpro

Interested to read that, PMRpro: my Adcal pot says "swallow the caplets with a glass of water". Does it make a difference whether you chew or swallow?

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Brizzleben

The caplets are different - different dose as well. I imagine they work better when swallowed whole - but the chewable ones are labelled as such.

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MakingDo

this seems to be such a complicated question! When i asked the pharmacist she said i didnt need zinc or magnesium because they were to help support the immune system.... i think i am getting steadily more confused :( am I worrying too much? - but if so, then why do they even mention or include these other elements?

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to MakingDo

Because they don't know everything. Here's a link to my "journey" - written a while ago, but a description of how I sorted out bone density issues quite handily.

healthunlocked.com/pmrgcauk...

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to HeronNS

Thank you- i will go and read that now. ๐Ÿ˜Š

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to MakingDo

Agree so am I confused.

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SheffieldJane

I couldnโ€™t swallow the huge Calcium bullets either. I asked for and got chewable Adcal. Quite pleasant really. You should be given the vit D and Calcium on prescription with our condition. Some people take vit K as well. I do when I remember.

Good for you with your diet!

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karools16

I get chewable Adcal, tutti frutti flavour. I call them my sweets.

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Mstiles

I take vitamin D with K2 liquid drops. I have trouble taking large pills.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Mstiles

Oh! I will look out for that!

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Jemsea

I have NutriAdvanced D3 drops with K2, but Ihaven't taken them yet. 3 drops 1-2 times daily. Not cheap though.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Jemsea

Yes, thatโ€™s the trouble, taking several independent products is going to get expensive ๐Ÿคจ

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to MakingDo

Caclium/vit D should be on prescription for patients taking pred in the UK. Then you get a prepayment certificate if you aren't over 60.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to PMRpro

Great - another one for my dr question list!

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Pongo13

Having got to the end of this thread I have learned that I am swallowing adcal when I should be chewing it! Honestly, I can't believe I've been so daft as to have missed this! Once again this forum sorts me out!

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to Pongo13

Talk about adding to the confusion ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿคฃ

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to Pongo13

Think we all are a bit crazy ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

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Louisepenygraig

How on earth did you manage to swallow it?

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Pongo13

Update! Checked at lunch and mine are swallowed with water - phew!

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AnthonyH

My Rheumatologist prescribed CalciChew D3 which are lemon flavoured and chewable.

When i came to renew at my local surgery, in order to save money they prescribed Acrete D3 which are large, tasteless and should be swallowed.

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Suffererc
Suffererc
in reply to AnthonyH

and very sickly ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜

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Omanain

I have just read HeronNS's really informative post 'My Osteoporosis Journey' which she has just given us a link to. I have managed to get this information from reading her other posts and her advice is invaluable. I cannot follow her exercise recommendations as I have a problem with my spine and can only walk very short distances. I just do what I can and try not to worry.

It took me a while to sort out a pill taking regime. There is quite a lot that can't be taken together. I am not a vegetarian and can only use supermarket dairy products.

8.30 Take thyroxine. (this has to be taken first thing and no food for at least half an hour)

9.30 Take Pred

9.45 Breakfast - take fish oil, vitamin C, milk thistle, pain medication, low dose aspirin.

12.30 Raniditine

2.30 Lunch - 400mg Calcium Citrite, this supplement includes 37mg Calcium, (I am in the uk and can't get calcium hydroxyapatite)

400iu Vitamin D3 and 90ug K2.

6.30 Evening Meal - same supplements as lunch plus a multi vit.

10.30 Ranitide, pain medication and milk thistle.

The Milk Thistle I have only recently started taking as it is thought to help with neuropathic pain.

I am NOT recommending this regime just thought I would share with how I worked it out.

If anything doesn't go together I would be pleased for the advice.

Good luck with your Appointment. You are getting well prepared! Let us know how it goes. x

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stellafmdm
stellafmdm
in reply to Omanain

I think you should be taking the pred after b'fast not before, to protect your stomach!

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Omanain
Omanain
in reply to stellafmdm

I take it with a Benecol yogurt drink.

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stellafmdm
stellafmdm
in reply to Omanain

That's OK then Omanain, you had me worried for you!

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sennetta

I would recommend that you take calcium citrate in preference to calcium carbonate (which is blackboard chalk and what the NHS prescribes and tends to end up in the blood stream rather than than the bones). It should be taken with vits D3 and K2 and magnesium. Manganese is also helpful. Look out for Dr Sarah Myhill's Multi Mineral Mix which you can buy online. It's pricey but it lasts for ages and has no dodgy fillers. This is what I do - the effect as far as I can tell is positive.

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ClarkB
ClarkB
in reply to sennetta

I have been prescribed the Adcal calcium carbonate. I also read that it was blackboard chalk. I bought Viridian Calcium Magnesium with Boron in powder form (calcium citrate 800mg) from Health Store. Dr thought it not strong enough. I end up so confused.

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piglette
piglette
in reply to ClarkB

On the other hand calcium carbonate makes up part of your bones!!

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sennetta
sennetta
in reply to piglette

But not necessarily when taken orally.

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MakingDo

Thank you ๐Ÿ˜Š

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di-bach

Hi I have used solray-D liposome spray with some success I had a bone density check and it was better than the one of five years previous reducing preds as recommended by PMR pro its produced by Physica in London Ontario Canada

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PMRCanada
PMRCanada
in reply to di-bach

Hey, I live 30 minutes from London, Ontario but have never heard of a spray.

I take Caltrate with Vitamin D times 2 daily.... 1 at lunch and 1 at suppertime. They are big tablets to be swallowed which is ok for me, but I do find they can upset my stomach a bit, especially if not taken with food.

Calcium citrate also comes in powder format that can be mixed with liquid and drank (instead of pill format).

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di-bach
di-bach
in reply to PMRCanada

Hi PMR Canada the company is Physica energetics I don't have an address but the liposome spray is just a couple of squirts under your tong and is absorbed into your blood stream directly similarly to the nitro spray for heart condition I wish you well

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Jeannie29

Hi MakingDo

I am taking Calci-D, they are chewable, and are not unpleasant to take,

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Louisepenygraig

I get my vitamin D from natures best. They're not particularly big. They're a good company with a wide range of products. Postage is free on orders over ยฃ15. I get magnesium from them too.

naturesbest.co.uk/vitamin-d/

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jbarie

If I needed Calcium?(osteopenia or osteoporosis),I would take 1000mg/day....but Calcium can deposit on your Arteries as well as your bone Particularly if you are deficient of K2 and D3..... Therefore I would recommend 2000 units of vitamin D3 and 200 mcg of vitamin K2 MK7 to keep the calcium out of the arteries assuring that it deposits into the bone.

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MakingDo
MakingDo
in reply to jbarie

Thank you - that is very helpful :)

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Pollyanna16

I have been getting my K2 from Natures Best too but this morning bought 30 capsules from Holland & Barrett for ยฃ5.99, special offer at the moment. However noticed when I got home they are a lower dose ๐Ÿ™„ 50ug rather than 90. Wonder how much I need?

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Pollyanna16

If you were taking 1 of the other - you will need 2 of these to get the same region of dose.

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Pollyanna16
Pollyanna16
in reply to PMRpro

So 90 is the correct dose?

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Pollyanna16

What does it say on the pack? There is usually and indication of the recommended amount.

This is the only link I can find that specifies doses for K2 - suggesting 100-300 mcg (micrograms):

drstevenlin.com/how-to-choo...

It is a good read I think - and does warn about over-dosing on even K2 when on anticoagulant therapy. You will get some from food.

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Pollyanna16
Pollyanna16
in reply to PMRpro

K2 from Natures Best suggests 1-2 capsules at 90ug. H&B 1 capsule at 50ug! Your article was very helpful. I have never read that D3 should be taken separately, 8 hours apart. Does ug also mean Mcg? Thank you so much for the help.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Pollyanna16

It isn't a "ug", it is ฮผg (there is a little tail on the u) but it isn't on the normal keyboard so mcg means the same thing.

I suspect the truth is that no-one knows how much does what. And too much vit K isn't always a good idea.

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Pollyanna16
Pollyanna16
in reply to PMRpro

Ah thank you, I thought so. So the 2 companies are recommending very different doses. Hmmm ...

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HeronNS
HeronNS
in reply to Pollyanna16

My capsules say 1 per day, 100 mcg. Australia has a suggested standard of 180 mcg per day, the only "official" recommendation I've heard of. I found 100 mcg was not enough to keep my sensitive teeth at bay. With 200 mcg per day my teeth as are as insensitive as I could hope for, so my assumption is that the bone in my jaw is more dense, and I have read somewhere that Vitamin K helps teeth, although I don't know how it could. I've even heard it is good for skin, something for those who have severe skin thinning problems with pred to keep in mind as maybe it does help, but, again, I don't know any more than that, which is, basically, hearsay.

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Singr

My head just completely exploded with all of that. My processing difficulties make it difficult to digest and make sense of a lot of it. Looking for a simple answer. Is there a multi vitamin which can be taken alongside the Adcal? ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ๐Ÿคฏ

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piglette
piglette
in reply to Singr

I read today that in the US six billion dollars is spent on supplements and most of it is not needed. Why do you think you need more vitamins? Have you been found to be deficient? You may find you are just boosting the supplement companiesโ€™ bank accounts.

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Singr
Singr
in reply to piglette

Well my hair and nails are thin and brittle so I am deficient in some ways.

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piglette
piglette
in reply to Singr

Why not take Biotin, vitamin B7, rather than a multi vitamin, for your nails? Donโ€™t waste money on just the possibility you are deficient.

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PMRpro
PMRproModerator
in reply to Singr

My nails were awful with PMR - never been so good in my life while on pred! But you have to be patient - nails don't grow out that fast.

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