Vitamin D for bone weakness

[katieoxo60]

I have just seen a Rheumatologist for arthritis, recently I had a fall and broke a bone in my shoulder for the second time. They say my bone density results seem normal, but the vitamin D results are not as high as the consultant would like, I have had arthritis for over twenty years and now they want me to have prescribed vitamin D supplements to spite the side effects risks from these pills especially if dose is too high. Anyone else had to decide on this dilema? Any advice would be appreciated.

[Bananas5]

I shattered both sides of my ankle when I slipped over 8 years ago. The surgeon who put me back together had never seen such a mess from such a simple fall.

Result was I was put on Vit D/Calcium supplement. My bone density was good too but they were baffled and had to do something!

I took it for 4 years with no side effects then moved to the Canary Islands where I get more than enough Vit D... so cane off it.

x

[katieoxo60 in reply to Bananas5]

Thank you , I have had two broken shoulders and one neck of the humerous broken . I already have Arthritis in several joints including Gout, so is there any hope for me my dexa scan is normal. My diet includes vitamin D but have to avoid strong sun due to past skin cancer. I think its just the latest preventative medicine craze.

[rabbits65]

Recently I too was told my vitamin D was too low and I’ve now got little green tablets to take after a main meal it says, I had no idea of any risky side affects taking these.

[katieoxo60 in reply to rabbits65]

Thank you, there are some side effects but not all would matter. One is a possible breathing change which is not good for those with lung conditions like myself, it can raise blood pressure too. Mine is all ready borderline high don't need pills to send it up.It obviously does not effect you which gives me hope I may be alright.

[wheezybronch]

I take Calcichew forte tablets which are calcium and vitamin D with no side effects. I take them because my bone density is lower than it should be and I have osteopenia, a precursor for osteoporosis not of course for osteoarthritis, sorry !

[katieoxo60 in reply to wheezybronch]

I already have arthritis but thank you for your help.

[Mary-intussuception in reply to wheezybronch]

Osteopenia is a precursor for Osteoporosis not Osteoarthritis.

[wheezybronch in reply to wheezybronch]

OOPs ! I have had multiple lacuna infarcts so blame my faulty memory ! Osteopenia is indeed a precursor for osteoporosis ! Sorry !

[katieoxo60 in reply to wheezybronch]

I have forgetfulness from the painkillers I take plus senior moments

[Hidden]

Hello Katie, Is your consultant cocerned you might be at risk of Osteoporosis? It usually starts as Osteopenia and anyone with that risk is usually adviced to have Vitamin D. I think if it's prescribed, they are less likely to overdose you. Maybe you could take a look at the informatio on the nos.org.uk wbsite to find out more. Ihave RA and Osteoporosis and have been taking Adcal +D3 twice a day.

[katieoxo60 in reply to Hidden]

thank you I will try your suggested advice site for more info. I do have arthritis which puts me at risk of breaks as the joints are weak. I know if prescribed they will have to keep check on levels with blood tests so less risk of overdose.

[johnsmith]

The problem is not bone density. The problem is doing all the wrong things when you fall. The bones break because you stiffen up as you fall. This means that you hit the bone with the fall weight of your falling point at a single point. With this sort of force the bone breaks.

You need training in how to fall. As you fall you let go of all tension so that you roll about the point of impact. This way there is not enough force at a single point to break a bone.

Suggest you join a local T'ai chi class. This hopefully should get your muscles moving. Arthritis is a brain problem not a bone problem. The brain controls how muscles move. Unfortunately as we get older the brain begins to lose its ability to control muscle behaviour unless we engage in muscle movement of some sort.

[katieoxo60 in reply to johnsmith]

Sorry johnsmith but your theory does not work in all cases, not all arthritis is muscular or in the brain as you suggest. Tai chi can keep the muscles subtle just the same as physio or gentle exercise in respect of osteo. If it is not in my bones then why are they distorted from damage???? As for learning how to fall that does not apply to accidental falls which you have no control over, sorry but your reply does not help me and could lead someone with a broken bone to handle there activity in convalesence in a wrong manner. It does not address the post question either. A three part proximinal humerous bone break does not mend with Tai Chi with the best will in the world.It takes upto six months or more of physio to get muscles back to normal. Thank you for taking the time to put your opinion on my post.

[wheezybronch in reply to katieoxo60]

johnsmith sounds a little arrogant in his post but I do not think that he meant it to be read like that. I actually agree with him, I have had many falls and, (I believe) because I have played squash and and have participated in Karate, have avoided any breaks or indeed virtually any bruising because I roll and absorbed any shocks by hitting the ground in a controlled , relaxed way. I have osteoarthritis pretty much all over my body and, although when people blithely say " You just need to keep moving and exercising" however I find that it is, for me at least, true. Once a bone is broken though you need to do the physio and listen to the health professionals. I do not really understand when he says "Osteoarthritis is a brain problem not a bone problem" which, palpably, it is.

[katieoxo60 in reply to wheezybronch]

Hi there , pain in the case of your body does stem from the brain recepters but in my case my arthritis is genetic runs in my family both osteo and gout. I've had several falls not resulting in broken bones just soft tissue damage & bruising. I do take small doses of narcotics which switch off the pain receptors in the brain but do not suit everyone . My control of my health is very good I only see consultants when in crisis, I beleive what works for me may not for others and my falls are part of the fact I have arthritis in my feet and imbalance from other painful joints. Thank you for your suggestions and support.

[johnsmith in reply to wheezybronch]

Thanks for the reply. Osteoarthritis is the symptom in the bones. The body is constantly removing calcium from the bones and redepositing it in the bones. The contraction and lengthening of muscles aids blood supply to the bones. When muscles over contract and remain over contracted then the blood supply to the bones gets impeded.

The brain controls the fine tuning of muscle movement. When the brain makes errors in muscle control there is a redistribution in force which changes how calcium is redeposited in the bones. It also changes the forces that are continually present on the bones. By working with what is good movement and better muscle control one can keep the joints well lubricated and moving.

Worth looking up Thomas Myers. He has a few interesting things to say.

[katieoxo60 in reply to johnsmith]

Thank you that does make some sense, apparently if the blood supply to bones is restricted too much bones can become so weak they shatter, which is what occasionally happens in serious accidents. Will try your suggestion.

[katieoxo60 in reply to johnsmith]

Ps what if you have a rupture tendon too which was obviously what happened to myself as there was massive heamatoma round my elbow but no break there. oops forgot that one!!

[wheezybronch in reply to katieoxo60]

I have had a virtually full thickness achilles tendon rupture caused by Ciprofloxacin.

mydr.com.au/pain/pain-and-h...

[katieoxo60 in reply to wheezybronch]

Thank you for link it does confirm a little of what I was saying. What was your drug prescribed for, that rupture your achilles Tendon.? if you don't mind me asking. Because I found that vitamin D in the wrong doses can actually do the opposite of what it is prescribed for.

[wheezybronch in reply to katieoxo60]

It is an antibiotic Katie,I was taking it for a chest infection. I was also on high dose prednisolone which made things worse.

[katieoxo60 in reply to wheezybronch]

Probably the interaction of two drugs or maybe a specific anomoly to yourself. It is hard when you are made worse by the pills given isn't it ? Take care

[Mary-intussuception]

If your Vitamin D level is low then yes, you need supplement. This should be monitored with follow up blood testing. What dose was prescribed? You could Google " NICE guidlines for treatment of Vitamin D deficiency ".

Also Google "NHS choices - symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency ".

[katieoxo60 in reply to Mary-intussuception]

Hi I don't know what dose has been prescribed till I pick up the prescription from the chemist most likely next week. The Gp says it is only borderline low as far as they are concerned, its the consultants suggestion to prescribe. Thank you for support

[Mary-intussuception in reply to katieoxo60]

Possibly the 800 IU maintenance dose of Colecalciferol (D3).

I would take it if I were you. You may have had "insufficiency " for a while.

I'm not aware of any side effects.

When you have annual bloods just make sure Vitamin D is included and always get copies of your results.

That way, you will have peace of mind that you are not on too much.

[katieoxo60 in reply to Mary-intussuception]

Hi there, I got a letter from the Consultants secretary today its a bit confusing but suggests I should be taking the dose you mention during the winter and to discuss with the practice nurse. My practice does not always perform an annual blood test even though I'm supposed to have one and they rarely tell me any results. When my uric acids were raised I had to ask the practice manage for a copy of the notified results, because my GP said they were fine when they were not. But I still attend the same surgery but a different doctor.So we shall see what happens when I pick up the pills next week.

[Mary-intussuception in reply to katieoxo60]

I also only found out about lots of results and medical conditions by seeing my medical records.

We all have a right to copies of our results / records. You can write or email hospitals also for cipies of your records and since new rules from 25 May 2018 they are free of charge.

[katieoxo60 in reply to Mary-intussuception]

Thanks for that they charged me £50 and took months to get and that was only part of my records, told me if I wanted the other copies stored elsewhere I would need to pay a further £50. I was told the records where my property and I have a right to see them. I have given up even the computer record the services use is wrong, all because of a miss diagnosis years ago that had legal intervention . But it does not mean I will not speak out as I am stating fact. Thanks for the new info .

[Mary-intussuception in reply to katieoxo60]

Under the old Data Protection Act rules they could charge. I have never paid for mine because if you applied within 40 days of last being seen you could get copies free but I think they had 40 days to reply. Now, I understand, they don't have 40 days to respond. So you should get them quicker.

We have to apply to the Medical Records Legal Department.

If you can phone hospital and ask for an email address to apply for copies of your records or write a letter. I also understand they cannot insist on you filling in a form now either.

You could email every hospital you've been to.

[beccahelpmeplease]

Hi I too have become vitamin d deficient. I'm currently taking 3200mg per day for 3 months and will reduce down to 80mg at 3 months and will remain on that for life. They believe mine has been set off but extremely quick and early menopause so protecting my bones against osteoporosis. I don't feel any different or have any side effects. Hope this helps. Please feel free to message me anytime. Becca xx

[katieoxo60 in reply to beccahelpmeplease]

Thank you sounds quite positive,xx

[BadHare]

Most people in non-tropical countries, or who spend most time indoors are vitamin D deficient. Too much is rare, & usually caused by daft people who think more of something is better than enough.

Look at The Vitamin D council’s website for information on dosage appropriate to your needs

Make sure you’re prescribed D3, cholecalciferol, as D2 is useless. There are vegetable sources if D3 if you prefer this.

Also, look up the other bone formation cofactors: vitamin K2, magnesium & boron, as well as ensuring you ha e adequate calcium in your diet. These can be sourced as food or supplements.

[katieoxo60 in reply to BadHare]

Thank you I have been advised to take more calcium rich foods. But suggested it is not urgent to start the vitamin D as I am only borderline deficient. I will check the items you mention while researching the vitamin D. Your reply was very helpful.

[BadHare in reply to katieoxo60]

Important to deal with potential nutritional deficiencies before there’s any issues as it’s harder to fix than prevent. The medication for osteopenia & osteoporosis can make bones brittle, amongst other problems.

I forgot to add that doing weight bearing exercise is also essential for renewing bone mass.

[katieoxo60 in reply to BadHare]

I just finished physio, with exercises for bone strengthening. Yes I was concerned the tablets for weak bones can cause weakness in some as can steroids used for COPD, it is a bit of sods law. There was a programme on TV last night and they stated most UK residents get enough vitamins from food except that maybe more D is needed in winter, and that over zealous use of vitamins can result in ill health. The dose the government suggest for D is about right for older persons, so I will give it a trial if any side effects I will discontinue. Thanks for all your help.

[Melbourne-Girl]

Hi katieoxo60 yourself & many others have had serious fractures from maybe a simple event such as falling from a standing height. I worked with this disease for many years and DEXA is only a very small part of the equation. That only shows bone quantity NOT bone quality and many Drs throughout the world have not been taught that yet. If you develop Osteoporosis there are good treatments now. You would need to see a good Endocrinologist who specialises in Bone health. Some Rheumatologists & Geriatricians do too and they usually see patients clinically as well as becoming heavily involved in Medical Research in Bone. I’m happy to give anyone advise if they have a problem in this area,

Take care and get well with your shoulder soon

All the best xx

Melbourne-Girl

🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀

[katieoxo60 in reply to Melbourne-Girl]

The Rheumatologist did suggest the dexa is not always a true result to be relied on as a true picture of your bone health, which confirms what you are saying too. I have had three breaks from standing height the last one was quite minor but the injury not so. Thank you for your support.

[Melbourne-Girl in reply to katieoxo60]

DEXA is NEVER a true result of your overall bone health!! Katie if you can find a bone Endocrinologist do so for the sake of your life & your bones. I will be happy if you email me privately as my sister has osteoporosis I diagnosed over the phone and I told her never to take drugs XYZ & the long term damage she would suffer!! Her Dr tried to put her on an XYZ because they don’t have enough patients yet with these shocking side effects to ban if from the market and when they do they will probably use it in 3rd world countries! My sister got another Dr because they were not taught about this in medical school and meanwhile this drug has been offered to the Australian Government for peanuts and they tell Drs to use it first line. Infortunateky they need many thousands of these frightful side effects before they remove the drug from the market.

Good luck with your bones I clearly can not name this type of drug on an international forum but would be happy to discuss in private email. Once this type of drug gets into your bone matrix it has more than a 10 year 1/2 life which means it’s there to stay!! If it was just a 10 year 1/2 life that means if you & I had just one tablet today there would still be some in the bone matrix in over 50 years (scary stuff)!!!! It sounds like you have osteoporosis & I certainly don’t want you being put on this type of drug, you have enough to worry about,

Looking for good bone health for you

M.G. Xx 💜 🍀🍀

[katieoxo60 in reply to Melbourne-Girl]

Thank you I will get back to you with a private message over the weekend.

[Joaclp]

As badhare says, vitamin k2 is essential for the absorption of calcium. The fat in whole milk foods helps--yoghurt, milk itself and cheese. In small amounts. Magnesium for muscle function. I improved my bone density tests in 6 months with these and d3. Since you have to rebuild bones, these should be a good idea. Best wishes for your healing.

[katieoxo60 in reply to Joaclp]

Hi I have looked up the varied things badhare suggested , looks like magnesium might be a good idea not sure about Boron. But all worth a consideration and as you say may improve things in a matter of months. Thank you

[Hidden]

You could also have a nosy at the bone health community on here Katie. It's misnamed in my opinion, as it's all about Osteoporosis. You'd possibly get som good advice from there. XXX

[katieoxo60 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you may have a look over the weekend on that site. Enjoy your eveningx

[nannalu]

Hi katieoxo60,

May I suggest that for your own research, I can recommend Dr Lani Simpson’s website: LaniSimpson.com. She is an American chiropractic doctor and a certified bone densitometrist. She takes an holistic approach to building strong bones, whatever the person’s age.

[katieoxo60 in reply to nannalu]

Thank you will try your suggestion before I start taking pills.