Is no one discussing psychedelic therapy for ptsd on this site?

Is no one discussing psychedelic therapy for PTSD on here? If not why not? Military having great success using this...... ie right now

eg

news.sky.com/story/ecstasy-...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[Agara33]

it has come up on this sight-but as you mentioned its not readily available legally. Psychedelics and mdma are also 2 different things, the former having possible dangers to some. Not everyone here is open to illegal therapies or taking serious drugs which these things are. The whole process is something you have to be ready for with someone very professional, as it's deep work and a certain degree of stability is necessary.

[Nathalie99 Partner]

I echo what Agara has said.

Some of these options can bring worse symptoms for example, in some percentage of people, can cause psychosis.

Therapy is something that needs to be tailored/customised to each person's needs.

Depending on other conditions a person might have, other medications they might be taking, if they are recovering from any substance abuse, there are different options.

There is a research on MDMA and it was discussed.

Not many would go for illegal options, as they need a clean record for employment.

[Hidden in reply to Nathalie99]

Thanks Nathalie99. Thanks .... yes I have wondered about that, do you have any reading or studies about psychosis caused by this please?

Re the illegality issue, I guess it`s only illegal until it is legal ... and as I mentioned the military (you can`t get more legal than that?) are using it with great success in a number of countries so it is only a matter of time before it IS legal, but in a very controlled way with psychotherapy (as it should be). EG. Cannabis & CBD is widely being used as medication now after being so called `illegal` for decades. Science moves on with new evidence and social prejudices evolve too. This is a link to Nature magazine one of the worlds foremost scientific journals. Scientists are taking this seriously but are being careful about its introduction nature.com/articles/d41586-...

[Nathalie99 Partner in reply to Hidden]

Hi Buckminster / Paul,

I think that there hasn't been enough effort from medical professionals to change a very inadequate system regarding options for PTSD help.

The most recommended therapies (CBT) and medications (antidepressants), in my opinion, do not take into account how trauma impacts the body, including the brain and nervous system, in various ways.

There isn't enough awareness and understanding what trauma is and this can lead to ineffective therapies and medications, which mean that people will likely get discouraged from looking for help/hope.

That said, I think that adding serious drugs might make the experience worse.

The article you shared, explores those concerns:

And there are risks. In extremely rare instances, psychedelics such as psilocybin and LSD can evoke a lasting psychotic reaction, more often in people with a family history of psychosis. Those with schizophrenia, for example, are excluded from trials involving psychedelics as a result.

The study participant experienced hallucinations:

Rutter says his journey with Carhart-Harris was focused, but flexible. When Rutter first removed a pair of eye shades after the drug took effect, the therapist appeared “fractured” and seemed to have another eye in the centre of his forehead.

This kind of experience would be traumatic to some people and might scare them.

Those clinical trials selected candidates carefully, to eliminate those who might develop psychosis/schizofrenia. This means that the results (percentages) of the effectiveness isn't going to be representative in the general population.

We had several members who came here looking for help after they took those types of drugs and developed psychosis that they are unable to get out of.

I haven't looked at the numbers yet but I heard stories first hand from people who experienced it.

I think that the therapeutic setting is something that is significant in those trials. Having a sense of safety and an experienced therapist is so very important and this alone could help in feeling more open and successful in therapy.

I would wait for more data from studies as there are too many risks at the moment.

[Hidden]

Yeh setting is all for some folk. AND as you point out not for people with deep psyche issues like Schizophrenia etc. However I am (as Jimi Hendrix asked?) `Experienced` so have been there done that recreationally before (always positive experience) BUT not in a focussed way with the intent of exploring my trauma. It`ll be scary and difficult but its meant to be, and might change me.

Personally not worried about trauma FROM the psilocybin etc itself at all.

and..... "Rutter says his journey with Carhart-Harris was focused, but flexible. When Rutter first removed a pair of eye shades after the drug took effect, the therapist appeared “fractured” and seemed to have another eye in the centre of his forehead"

sounds quite cool to me, seen much crazier things.

BUT to a `straight` eg church going conformist would be new and if they fought against it could be disturbing. But that is kinda the point.. ie to reset. For people who haven`t used these substances before sometimes the drug might worry but the experience is often replete with wisdom and `shows you the way` and is not to be feared.

With me we will see. I intend to do a medium dose mushroom trip in a comfortable setting during summer and focus on my childhood trauma (If I can) .

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

OH BTW re the single eye thing it is just a simple perceptual trick of our vision a focal point thing. Try it.... get a friend to let you stare a the the bridge of their nose and you will discover they have a single eye 😜

[Nathalie99 Partner in reply to Hidden]

Hi Paul,

I think the reason for the clinical trials is to establish how safe it is before it gets approved.

The ones run on military vets are more strict in the way they are run.

Clinical trials do carefully set up inclusion and exclusion criteria to improve the chances of getting the trial protocol accepted. You can read these in the two Clinical Trial entries for MDMA and psilocybin respectively here:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

From Exclusion Criteria:-

- Are abusing illegal drugs;

- Are unable to give adequate informed consent;

- Upon review of past and current drugs/medication must not be on or have taken a medication that is exclusionary.

- Upon review of medical or psychiatric history must not have any current or past diagnosis that would be considered a risk to participation in the s(tudy)

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

From Exclusion Criteria:-

"7. Borderline, schizoid, or schizotypal personality disorder.

11. Healthy participants with a first degree relative with a significant Axis 1 psychotic, dissociative, or mood disorder, except depression."

-----

Our community is not endorsing use of illegal substances.

There are safety concerns and until they are resolved, I would advise not to take any of those substances.

My concerns are that doing so without a therapist guiding you, might be unsafe.

Unpacking trauma on your own can be very overwhelming. Therapists help by intervening when triggers/flashbacks get too much. It is also possible to experience physical symptoms that are severe.

People shouldn't drive and do things as normal in this state, no matter if they are a novice or not - hallucinations/visual disturbances mean it is not safe.

You have the freedom and choices to do what you believe is best for your situation, however our community can't endorse this outside of a clinical trial.

[Hidden in reply to Nathalie99]

Yep AGREE with everything you have written here.

I will not advocate for or against.

I just want a discussion

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

PS thanks for links, will have a look

👍

[Nathalie99 Partner in reply to Hidden]

Discussion is okay as this is a subject that is being researched.

[Hidden in reply to Nathalie99]

Yep and as I said this really , really IS being researched hugely, I mean hugely.

Which is why I am surprised this site is tippytoeing around this cutting edge area.

(totally understand about the legality issues and the dangers etc, but my mother was told like millions to smoke cigarettes to keep her calm, so don`t always trust the prevailing medical attitudes eh?)

Anyway this very short list took me literally 5 minutes to gather off web and includes studies by major universities, pharmaceutical co`s; governments private companies; and even business speculators!

so I think categorically the research IS being done.

Again, really surprised this feels new to this PTSD related forum the rest of the PTSD world is discussing this area avidly 😗. Here is some food for thought.. ... just for starters

hopkinspsychedelic.org/camp...

nature.com/articles/d41573-...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

med.nyu.edu/departments-ins...

westfaironline.com/147920/p...

psychedelicnewswire.com/god...

academic.oup.com/ijnp/artic...

psychedelichealth.co.uk/202...

investorplace.com/hypergrow...

practicalpainmanagement.com...

[Nathalie99 Partner in reply to Hidden]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your research.

Our main focus is on supporting each other in specific situations. We do not share news about research, it doesn't matter on what the subject is...

[Hidden in reply to Nathalie99]

Thank you for the clarification i did not understand this is a forum only for discussing authorised therapies I was looking for information and help myself from anyone who has pursued these vanguard therapies ( that will be available, mark my words in the next 10 years) i get the feeling that 90% of therapies on offer only provide temporary coping mechanisms. I realise that i am probably looking in the wrong place (as ever!) good luck everyone. Keep on keepin on folks xx

[AussieNeil Moderator in reply to Hidden]

Hi Paul,

Per the research you have referenced, certainly there is hope on the horizon for the possible use of these substances. However as Nathalie99 has pointed out, we need the clinical trial study outcomes from these clinical trials to who is a good candidate for these still experimental treatments and to determine how they can best be used. From your references;

" Data supports MDMA-assisted psychotherapy as PTSD treatment

Researchers hope the treatment could be approved for use by 2023."

"For psilocybin to be approved for this use, it will need to be tested in clinical trials. There are many potential dangers that may arise during clinical trials of new drugs. For example, how can a patient who has never taken a psychedelic drug consent to taking it if they don’t know the ways in which it could affect them? This can cause problems from a legal perspective, especially concerning patient safety and protection."

The articles describing the clinical setting for their use also note the presence of 1 or 2 therapists.

This is not something you experiment on at home without a therapist present.

Neil

[Hidden in reply to AussieNeil]

This is a good point well made, re those inexperienced with psychedelics. However i guess there is always am element of trust of doctors with any medication .eg Prozac was fine for my depression then a few years later i was given an alternative ssri, which was similar but catastrophic for me! settled on citalopram 3 years ago for depression and constant anxiety ( did zero for my trauma... quit all meds a year ago but trauma still needs addressing)

[BrainIsFull]

I am very interested in this type of treatment. I have listened to some podcasts about it and I saw a report on tv. I am EXTREMELY afraid of becoming psychotic so it's probably not a good option for me. 🙁

I am concerned about the safety issues as others here have mentioned. However, I am pretty fed up with the current medical treatments where you often have to settle for whatever is "good enough".

I am interested in the idea of "rebooting" your brain which I think can happen after these kind of medical treatments. I have experiernced this affect after having migraines or after a particularly bad bout of anxiety /depression. I also heard about an experimental treatment where patients are fully anesthetized for like 10 minutes at a time every day for a few weeks. They wake up with that kind of resetting of the brain. Plus, the idea of deep sleep sounds very appealing to me.

[Hidden in reply to BrainIsFull]

Hi Brains. I came on here to learn more but it appears the site has not really discussed this so I can share what little I know. BUT do your own research. I am NOT advocating any treatment or claiming any expertise in this area (just to be clear

However. from what I read ( do your own reasearch please) this thing about psychosis is only for folks who have prior conditions (YOU check)

Psychedelics have been used by humans since the dawn of time, there are even arguments that they contributed to the evolution of the human brain)

Psilocybin (magic mushrooms) are generally considered very safe. They are mind and perception altering (which is the point)

Its the dosage and the environment that is important IMO. micro dosing is a recent trend but different from the full on `trip`.. look it up.

So if you are a novice dont trip then drive a car or go to the shops or have tea with your granny (Unless she is extremely cool) obvious really, these are mind altering chemicals

Correct dose and safe secure environment WITH a therapist who will guide you to your relationship with your trauma.

It might be blissful, it might be terrifying, it might well be both. the point is that your memories may be opened up by the drug and create a new understanding.

Serious studies including end of lifeand palliative care were taking place in the 50s and 60s with LSD but were essentially shut down by the `moral` US (et al) government concerned about the rise of counter-culture and general morality.

The `psychosis` tag came along with this to put the average person off. Very few people tripping safely have had this ( do the research)

The last 10 years have seen the studies finally open up again and especially work within the military with PTSD after Iraq etc.

I have taken numerous trips of LSD and mushrooms years ago to explore, my existence.

But now am going to try to use it to unwrap my childhood trauma ie NOT for recreation.

I personally have never had a bad trip, challenging yes, bad no.

But best to research and talk to people first and if you are a novice DEFINITELY do this in a therapeutic setting as we discussed, they know what they are doing.

And seriously!... if the military are finally catching up and giving it to vets! using the power of these natural substances, that says a lot doesn`t it.

I think they often use MDMA( Ecstacy) though. Therapy not available in UK, unless you are a vet or in a clinical trial sadly. research and talk to people if this is new to you but do not take it lightly treat these substances with deep respect and they may well return the favour. anyone from UK on here?

[BrainIsFull in reply to Hidden]

I am grew up in the US but have lived in Germany for +20 years now. I grew up during the WAR ON DRUGS🙄😜and it definitely worked on me! I grew up scarex to do anything (except drink alcohol excessively 🤷🏼‍♀️).

Thanks for your input.

[Hidden in reply to BrainIsFull]

Yeh, Alcohol has been my `go to` numbing and socialising agent since I was 14. It is legal and socially acceptable in UK (as in US). We joke at my local pub some people are made `two pints under` 😅 that is me as I personally `loosen up and relax after about two beers. (Not a heavy drinker but a fairly regular one.. don`t drink at home generally). That is probably due to my trauma ie not letting my guard down without a drink.

Re psychedelic therapies I do believe there are some specialist `retreats` in EU (I have found some online) who are more open-minded about the recent PTSD research. But again I am not an expert and wont advocate for or against... do your own research but do it well.

Best regards. P.

[Agara33 in reply to BrainIsFull]

mdma is not known for danger of psychosis or bad trips or the things that are associated with psychodelics and is a really wonderful tool-i saw the effects in a friend who went through this and he said it changed his life. hopefully soon it will be available legally. psychedelics when done in a therapeutic environment don't generally have the same risks they do as when done casually.

[Hidden in reply to Agara33]

Yes MDMA generally not dangerous ( I was clubbing a lot in London when it first appeared on the scene as the `love drug`... 2nd summer of love 1989) However there are some down sides (never taken it myself) apparently users spoke (and PTSD therapy patients speak) of a `downer` ie being wiped out for a couple of days (Poss connected to serotonin deficit or similar if I remember correctly..look it up, its all on the web)

There was a spate of bad press and scandal in the UK news of clubbers having serious adverse effects (sadly a couple of related deaths), but that may have been due to hydration issues not the drug per se (again look it up this is all on the record) Ecstasy was a bete noir in the tabloid/pulp media for a few years and questions were even asked in parliament about its safety, clubs and raves were raided etc. So like anything. Knowledge and understanding are vital. just be sensible. and as mentioned these substances are illegal in common use.