Morning everyone. Sorry I'm not coming with better news. It's 10dp5dt and I've been spotting for 24 hours and full period arrived this morning. First response shows negative. I haven't even cried. I just expect it now.
Would love some guidance on any next steps so I've set out a brief overview of my history below. What do you think? I'm so stuck and frustrated
Trying 7 years far, nhs slow to respond and get results but ivf recommended at age 38, unexplained infertility. Covid put the brakes on things in northern Ireland, major delays.
1st round (nhs, sept 2021) - age 40, amh about 12. Long protocol, ivf, 300 bemfola, 13 eggs retrieved, 11 mature, 2 fertilised, transferred day 3. BfN 💔
2nd round (private jan 2022) - age 40, amh retested at 16.7, short protocol plus isci, 225 gonal f, 10 eggs retrieved, 7 fertilised, 2 x 3BB, 1 x 2BB frozen due to high oestrogen levels.
FET with 3BB (may 2022) - BFN 💔
Surprise natural pregnancy immediately after fet (June 2022) ended in chemical 💔
FET with 2nd 3BB - steroids added, sis scan done, scratch done. BFN 💔
Left the 2bb in the freezer. Had persistently high oestrogen throughout the year that delayed transfers.
3rd round age 41 (Feb 2023) - higher steroids added, short protocol, poor response to 150 gonal f. 2 follicles showing. Collection abandoned and converted to IUI - BFN 💔
AMH retested - dropped to 2.2 within 14 months
4th round age 42 (April 2023) - higher steroids, scratch done before, short protocol plus icsi, higher stims 300 gonal f, better response. 11 eggs collected, 9 fertilised, 8 made it to day 4 but just one 4AB left and transferred day 5. BFN 💔
I have asked my Dr about Emma Alice etc and he's convinced that's not the issue but said if the next one fails we could try it. Didn't have nk tests done, just added steroids. Sperm I'm told is "super sperm" but haven't had dna frag done.
Lining always great and triple.
I still have my 2bb in the freezer. Do I try again with another Collection, is there any point after the last two stims produced one blast? Or would lower stims help?
Do i need more tests before transferring any more embryos?
Should I move to donor? I'm open to it but have natural worries about will I feel like a fraud, will i feel like it's not mine? I don't think I'll ever not have those worries so what's the point in waiting.
Thanks ladies for your thoughts and support as always.
Joey the equal optimist and pessimist xx
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Sorry to hear about your BFN. I would not give up just yet. I keep hearing fertility doctors say "every cycle is different". Do another round if can afford it. You have produced a great quality embryo. I'm not going to say it only takes one because at our age (over 40) we would like more blasts.
Personally donor eggs should be your last resort. You have only just turned 42 so there's still time although it is harder. I personally don't think you need any tests since your lining has been fine.
I'll be on clexane, aspirin and steroids due to my previous implantation failures (3) even though I don't have sticky bloods. You could ask your Dr about anti-coagulant meds. Best wishes x
Thanks a lot, you've definitely given me a few things to think about. 42 just seems like a tough age to keep going and I just want my life back. Its been controlling me for so many years. But I need to take a step back and see the big picture xx
Just to add, you conceived naturally as well. So anything that would prevent miscarriage or implantation failure. My Dr said my luteal support is better for those with aps ie sticky blood however it may help in my situation and worth a try. Hopefully your Dr will mix things up. Plus I will be additional progesterone on top of pessaries...lubion which is expensive and Dr warned me and I said it was fine.Thinking of you. Be kind to yourself. You will be a mum. Stay positive and do another round with extra luteal support. At our age I read we should not be on lower dose. I was on 225iu last round and only got 9 eggs. It was a day 3 double transfer. At day 5, I had a poor quality 4 cell embryo which by day 6 turned into an early blastocyst. Embryologist said biology is not an exact science or something. Anything can happen. I hope this helps. Please PM me if you want x
Hi Joey I'm sorry to hear about your result. It's so gruelling when it feels never ending!
I think in this position I would consider doing the following, maybe not all of these but these would be the scenarios running through my mind -
- PGTA testing embryos
- ERA EMMA and ALICE as you've mentioned
- DNA fragmentation test as you've mentioned
- Have you had your progesterone measured to make sure you are absorbing it once on the meds?
- are you on any blood thinners?
I don't think I would want to keep transferring embryos without doing more testing. That's just me though.
In terms of moving to donor, I am also in a position where I am open to it but it is a journey to acceptance and like you, I wonder if you ever feel completely ready. I have only heard positive things from those that went this route and I think its important to hold on to that as reassurance.
Thanks a lot for the reply babe and so sorry you're also still in the fight! Yes I'd consider all of the above. I asked again this round about aspirin but was told not to take it. Also don't know if we need dna frag done as we do get to blast? But will raise it.
And if I managed more embryos I had planned to test and bank but mother nature had other plans for me 🙄
It's so so tough with all the conflicting info isn't it. And sometimes people may say did you try this and that but if your clinic say no to the things you highlight then it can be very difficult. I can't advise too much on the DNA fragmentation test, we chose to do it to rule it out and in some cases it really does show a lot that you can do something about. On the testing issue, I don't get many embryos so I understand the dilemma. I decided to test even with one or two embryos which presented the risk that they may not be "normal" and therefore I'd have nothing to transfer. On balance I decided it was worth the risk BUT for me it's a bit different because of my history.
Whatever you decide give yourself a little bit of time to digest what's happened and please be kind to yourself. Xx
So sorry to read this. Take some time and look after yourself. From what I am reading you are still not ready to give up on your own eggs. If you can afford it keep going. So it will be no regrets later.
I am not sure how helpful I am being but a lot of ladies in here had success with low stimulation, mini or natural ivf.
I think if I was to have another go at my eggs it would have been mini ivf.
My clinic says the latest research on ERA says it doesn't improve your chances.
im sos sorry to read this 😢 I hope your ok. Have you had the embryos chromosomally tested? I would also push for the Alice emma and era test. After a number of transfers that’s what worked for us. We needed an extra day of progesterone and had a number of chromosomally abnormal embryos xxx
I had intended to ask about gebetic testing this round as by day 4 it was looking like we were gonna have a few to test but our luck ran out and we only had the one. If I was to get a few I'd consider it.
I think definitely Emma Alice etc needed. Something just doesn't seem right. Surely something could have implanted when I was 36 37 if it was just an age issue? X
yeh that’s what I thought too. If it was just age why did nothing happen when I was 28. The doctor said you don’t need the era as you had a chemical but we were doing the others anyway and thought let’s just do that too. It was the one that came back saying to transfer on day 6 instead of 5 xxx
Hi Joey, I’m really sorry for everything you have had to go through. I really hope you have better luck soon. I’m in a similar situation where I’ve had a few good quality embryos returned and no baby yet, so I really understand how you feel.
You can make brilliant embryos, so I wouldn’t move on from your own eggs yet.
I would personally push for more tests and a hystoscopy. They might not show anything, but equally if they do find something it might be a reasonably simple change.
Hi Joey, I'm so sorry, it's so tough 😔Looking at your history, I would suggest ERA, EMMA, ALICE and NK testing. You are making really good quality embryos, so I would continue with your own eggs just in my opinion. Could you do a collection , freeze your embryos then have the testing perhaps? That way they will be there waiting for you as the testing can take quite a few months. I would also be asking the clinic for progesterone blood testing. Could also add in IMSI, so they select the best sperm, that does not cost too much in terms of what everything else IVF does!
I know how hard it is to keep getting implantation failure, that's all I had until my 5th transfer when I finally had my BFP after these tests and the treatment for the issues they highlighted and got my progesterone to stay to a good level.
Also, my Mother in Law had my Husband when she was 44 despite trying for years before when younger and nothing happening.
Hope you can have a large glass of wine and treats tonight, then come at it with a new plan on however you choose to move forward. Good luck xx
Thank you, yes I think I'm gonna insist on some tests but want to get eggs out of me sooner rather than later. Also need a change in protocol to hopefully get a few more blasts maybe xx
Hi Joey I just wanted to say how sorry I am for all your going through ❤️. Such a tough & gruelling process over 7 years. You must feel drained & exhausted with it all. Trying to keep & stay hopeful during the treatment is so difficult too.
I can’t offer any advice on the tests etc but wanted to wish you well & hope that whatever you decide to do next goes to plan with positive outcome.
. know that you’re not alone in this battle. Sending you strength. Take care xx
Thank you, that means a lot. I am totally exhausted and angry that it's been so gard for us. We are good people and we deserve a wee family. I can't get my head around it x
I often think this when I see totally rotten people spawning offspring like there’s no tomorrow… and then there’s people like us- desperate to share our love with a tiny human of our own. It’s heartbreaking 💔
hey lovely- I’m so sorry again 😢 as you were spotting the last few days I would defo say more progesterone is worth a try like adding lubion injections if you aren’t already on them, that’s defo helped me not bleed before test day. We also added clexane last few times as well. I’m the same as you last few rounds (1 blast so no point in testing) and I wonder whether the lower meds will be better as historically that seemed to work for me so if we don’t move straight to my wife’s eggs I’m going to ask about trying lower meds but stimming longer and see what the consultant says. Thinking about you today and sending you strength and hugs 💜🤗 xx
Thanks and thanks for your private support too. Yes I'm going to raise all these things. I just can't keep putting embryos in with no answers and no chance.
The thought of a positive test is just so so alien to me. I can't imagine it. It's never gonna happen for me is how i feel x
Hi I can't remember the exact oestrogen number but it was over 8000 I think? As for Alice and dna - he doesn't think Emma Alice it's is the issue but did agree to do it if the next embryo failed which it has. Also didn't think we needed dna frag as firstly we are doing icsi and secondly we did make 3 blasts in the last round I had. Xxx
So sorry you understand my pain all too well. My clninc only has one consultant so can't do that but I am thinking about a second opinion. Which I feel bad about cause I actually trust my Dr and do think he's rooting for me. I will see what my review meeting is like before I decide. Xx
First of all, you will not feel like a fraud or like the baby is not yours if you do donor eggs. It's also none of anyone else's business. No one has to know. Your child has to know eventually, but not until they are basically grown up.
Second, if you can afford to bank some embryos—do that. It seems like 42 is really the last year with a decent shot, or so everybody says, and so if you can manage to do that where you are, or go to Spain or whatever, to bank as many embryos as you can, do that now. Yes, people still do have success at 43 and very rarely after, but why not do it now, while you can, if you can?
Third—I don't know if this would help, but I just got BFP after trying acupuncture for the first time. I think the hard thing is you really need someone who specializes in fertility. I was really skeptical about it myself, since the first person I saw years ago at the start of this wasn't that great. But I found a really great person at the start of this year and I am convinced it helped. I saw her about once a week for maybe four months before the transfer, and then I saw her three times the week of my transfer—three days before, one day before, and then two days after.
Even if a stim cycle only produces one blast, it's still a blast. It's still early days for me, but my last cycle (a year ago now) I got 7 eggs but only 2 were mature and only 1 fertilized. I was convinced it would not work. But here I am, pregnant—at least for now! So you never know.
do you use lubion alongside progesterone pessaries? In my last round that was the change that we made and we have our boy now. Also 600mg COQ10 during egg collection too. My husband was also told to ejaculate 7 days up to egg collection and that’s when we got the best embryos. Of three collected all got to Blast when in the first round we didn’t get any to blast
Oh no. So so sorry it didn't work out again, Joey. You really have had such a rough ride. 😰
My sister (40, low amh) was getting 0 blasts (dropping off day 3) and then did some kind of wacky protocol plus a diet overhaul (extremely high protein diet plus lots of healthy fats) and began to get 4 or so per round. Sadly the blasts didn't make it through PGS testing, but the change in protocol certainly turned their embryo numbers around. I know everyone responds differently to different protocols, but do you want me to get her to write down her protocol for you to maybe discuss with your doctor?
Yes please. I'd really appreciate it. Although to be honest I can't go through another diet overhaul. I tried it and I just don't have the motivation for it x
I have asked her to write it down for you! Might be a little while before she gets back to me as she is in her 2WW for her only euploid embryo right now so she’s feeling a bit all over the place.
Ps totally understand the reluctance to do a diet overhaul. So little concrete evidence and so depressing to have to limit yourself when already making so many sacrifices
Hi Joey. How are you feeling? My sister says her Instagram handle is @mama.dreaming and there's lots of details about her protocol on there, or you can dm her!
PS totally understand re reluctance to do a diet overhaul. Infertility is joyless enough as it is
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