Desulfovibrio, anxiety and magnesium oxide

[Rufous2]

I stumbled upon a study I thought was interesting, in light of recent reports that PwPD harbor elevated levels of desulfovibrio in their microbiome. Desulfovibrio is a sulfur reducing bacteria (SRB). Sulfur reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide, which in small amounts can be beneficial, but in larger amounts is thought to promote anxiety. In this experiment, researchers treated mice with desulfovibrio to elicit hydrogen sulfide production and anxiety behavior, then treated the mice with magnesium oxide which ameliorated both, apparently by suppressing the growth of SRB.

Magnesium is often used to address anxiety/sleep issues, but I've never come across a proposal that it works via the gut microbiome. On the contrary, it's usually advised not to use the magnesium oxide form because it isn't well absorbed but tends to stay in the gut and cause loose stools!

Seems like those with anxiety/constipation issues might benefit from trying magnesium oxide, but I'm not sure about the applicability otherwise. Still, it got me wondering if other measures to suppress desulfovibrio would have an impact on anxiety. For instance, did anyone who incorporated agave inulin into their stack find it lessened their anxiety? 

Research on the microbiome in PD just can't come fast enough! I suspect one day there will be pre/probiotics tailored to individual symptoms like this.

mdpi.com/2076-2607/12/7/1429

[SallyBeeBobs]

This is really interesting. I too thought that magnesium oxide was to be avoided due to poor absorption. I take magnesium glycinate because I thought that was good for anxiety.

After reading about the Finnish study and desulfovibrio, I started taking agave innulin and bacillis subtilis. I started these about 6 weeks ago. I'm really not sure if they've helped with anxiety - I'm going through a stressful time at work though, soit's hard to tell. I've always struggled with anxiety. Maybe it takes longer than 6 weeks to have an effect.

I'd read that magnesium L-Threonate is good for PD because it crosses the blood-brain barrier so I had been planning on getting that when my glycinate ran out.

Maybe a magnesium complex that contains glycinate, l-theonate and oxide exists??

I'll look into it.

Thanks Rufous2

[Rufous2 in reply to SallyBeeBobs]

It occurred to me that magnesium oxide is sometimes used like calcium carbonate is, as an antacid. So probably best not to take with meds.

[Boscoejean in reply to SallyBeeBobs]

"Can I take magnesium Threonate and oxide together?

Using magnesium oxide together with magnesium threonate can lead to elevated magnesium blood levels, particularly in people with reduced kidney function."

drugs.com/drug-interactions....

[Rufous2 in reply to Boscoejean]

I entered mag. threonate and mag. glycinate into drugs.com and got the exact same thing, literally word for word; drugs.com/drug-interactions...

It makes no sense that glycinate would be safe to take with threonate, but not oxide. Of course if you double or triple the RDA of any magnesium, or magnesium combo, you might stress the kidneys. That would be hard to do with threonate though, cause the dose of elemental magnesium is so low. Watching the total magnesium intake is the most important thing, and of course it's always a good idea to run supplement use by your doc!

[7springshollow in reply to SallyBeeBobs]

I take magnesium threonate and it really helps me sleep well

[Rufous2 in reply to 7springshollow]

Thank you for this. I have wondered if magnesium threonate is worth the expense, considering how low the typical dose is.

[Boscoejean]

"Can you take magnesium L-threonate and magnesium glycinate together?

Yes, Magnesium threonate and magnesium glycinate can be taken together. They target different health areas and can offer complementary benefits. However, it is important to consider the total magnesium intake and consult with a healthcare provider to ensure safety and proper dosing."

[Bolt_Upright]

You should take a look at the other posts on Desulfovibrio: healthunlocked.com/cure-par...

Especially look at the Pistachio post. Some think Desulfovibrio is a cause of PD, and if it is then Pistachios and Berberine could be helpful.

[Rufous2 in reply to Bolt_Upright]

Thanks, Bolt! I love pistachios, but have been so disappointed with the quality of the ones around here, I've given up. Trader Joe's used to be our go to place for nuts, but I won't even buy almonds from them any more. Guess I need to look online. 😊

[Bolt_Upright in reply to Rufous2]

Just pretend you are at a bar and it is almost 2 AM closing time.

[Sydney75 in reply to Rufous2]

Costco Kirkland brand

[7springshollow in reply to Rufous2]

I quit nuts because they are reported to have mold and I heard mold can be bad for pwp.

[Rufous2]

Ha! Bars around here, you're lucky to get peanuts! 😝

[posthinking01]

Hi there -magnesium is a wonderful mineral but I am not a lover of probiotics - they can cause the body to respond with an immune response and you need all the immune response you can but in the right areas.

[gomelgo in reply to posthinking01]

I did not know this. Is it really true?

[posthinking01 in reply to gomelgo]

Well I have 4 auto immune diseases and my consultant told me off as he knows when I have taken pro biotic yoghurts as he sees the reaction in the immune blood tests but that might not be the same for you - but the immune response has to kick in as they are 'bugs' so to speak.

[Rufous2 in reply to gomelgo]

The immune system is complex, and highly individual. Virtually anything we ingest can cause it to overreact. Just ask anyone with a peanut allergy! 

The microbiome is also incredibly complex, as evidenced by the ability of a simple compound like magnesium oxide to alter it and influence behavior. The science of how thousands of microorganisms interact with each other, with our immune system and with our genetics, is in it's infancy. That's why I said probiotics would "one day" be used to target individual symptoms. There's a lot of research going on, but right now probiotics use for the consumer pretty much involves throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. I'm leery of probiotic use in PwP, cause their microbiomes are wonky compared to "gut-typicals"; abnormally high in some organisms that are normally considered beneficial, but may actually contribute to the disease process in PD. 

That being said, probiotics do benefit some. PS128 is a case in point, and testimonials about it's effectiveness can be found here on CP. Bacillus subtilis seems to keep my SO free of S. aureus skin infections. I hope it prevents a-synuclein aggregation too, like it does in worms, but who knows. We can make educated guesses (which is why we exchange ideas here, I think) but in the end, trial and error is the order of the day, just like with diet and supplements....sigh. 

[gomelgo in reply to Rufous2]

Indeed ... I may yet give that expensive probiotic a try.

[7springshollow]

I was tested for Desulfovibrio and had zero. 6 years post diagnosis.

[Rufous2 in reply to 7springshollow]

Happy for you, as I don't think anyone's found any evidence that desulfovibrio is ever good for PwP. You would seem to be living proof that desulfovibrio is not the sole cause of PD, as some have suggested, but a cog in a very complex wheel.

[gomelgo in reply to Rufous2]

I too had my gut tested (floré) and no Desulfovibrio found. And constipation is a big symptom of mine, in fact likely the first symptom I had even as a child.

[Rufous2 in reply to gomelgo]

I guess it should be mentioned that there are other sulfur reducing gut bacteria besides Desulfovibrio., and a low sulfur diet could be tried if one really thought hydrogen sulfide was a problem for them.

My "gut feeling" (sorry 😝) is that a lack of butyrate probably contributes more to constipation than SRBs do. One can take pre-biotics to encourage the butyrate producers, but if none are present it won't help. FMT, maybe?

[gomelgo in reply to Rufous2]

Considering it, but need to find a way to have it done safely.