Been to the neurosurgeon, been inside the MRI machine, seen the piece of disc that's sqeezed out into the nerves on the screen. Before the MRI he was saying I could run again, as it was good for clearing away inflammation products; afterwards he was showing me videos of the disc fusion op, and warning against exercise that has any impact. To be honest, I'm not utterly convinced of this "impact" story. I think what kills my back is sitting, and really the advice should be to avoid sitting as far as possible. I might even lightly probe that, using myself as my own guineapig, later.
For now, though, I'll be a good boy. I'll go and sit (!!) on my bicycle, and try to cover as much ground as I can on it. I'll go and spin (seated!!) until I bloody love it. I Will! I'll swim further and further. Might even one day get brave and swim out to the shark nets and back. I'll keep tackling this thing.
The most important adjustment to make is going to be to find ways of doing things I do seated, lying down, or standing, for starters. (And not just finding those ways but remembering to have the discipline to keep doing things that way. I should chuck my desk away, maybe.)
However, be all that as it may, I am still a runner. Laura said so, and I believe her. I think I'll hang out with these other runners I've found on the interwebs sometimes, then. Vicarious running is better than the other version of the couch, too.
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gary_bart
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Really sorry about your situation. I know it's hard to see the reality behind words here, but you seem to be dealing with it pretty well, and you have my admiration for that, for what it's worth.
Trouble is, professionals like your neurosurgeon have to be so careful with the advice they dispense for fear of litigation that they will always give the most cautious and safe advice if they give any at all. Perhaps in a while you'll find that you can experiment gently with a little running. Depending on a person's running style, I wouldn't have thought there was always a great deal of impact.
Anyway, all the best for your future managing your knackered back.
Thanks. One of the things I suppose I can fairly safely get to work on (although that really does entail a lot of "just work") is core strength. I suspect that to the extent that exercise can worsen this thing, core stength protects one.
I've looked at the website quite superficially. I must go and dig a bit. It certainly is something that relates quite strongly to this problem I have.
Saddle stools are good for seated posture: bambach.co.uk/ This is a top-end model with leather saddle. Wouldn't use anything else now. They make you sit like teacher has just walked in the room..
Thanks. Bookmarked. The seat I sit on now definitely aggravates this condition. In a way that's almost a positive of having the "painless numb feet" version of this. For no major cost in pain (just occasional stiffness/ need to limp) every bit of furniture, and every posture gives some feedback about how it affects my back. In the short term, that's some discomfort to suffer, but in the longer term (if I can just remember) it's a good warning of which of the things that don't seem to hurt that actually are hurting a bit. Maybe it's a good idea to keep notes whenever whatever injury you have is sensitive, so that later you know to avoid that situation, even when there's no pain to warn you.
If it is any consolation my sister only started running after two disc operations. She finds that her back is worse if she doesn't run for a while. She runs trail races, marathons and has done a couple of ultras. So disc problems are necessarily the end of your running career! Hope it all works out for you.
Thanks. It is indeed a consolation. Especially as I know that if I have stiffness to go with the numb feet, all I have to do to make it go away for a few hours is to go and have a nice run.
Are you considering the op? I had a back operation about 5 years ago for a prolapsed disc. Still have some numbness in my leg and can't stand for long but running has not caused me anymore pain than I usually have....she says fingers crossed.
I don't know if it's an option for you or not but just thought I would share my experience in case it is.
You are a runner and a big part of our running family on here.
Thanks Jules. I've heard from the friend of the uncle of a cousin of the sister of a doctor's husband that the op is a bit risky, and that it's best avoided. My neurosurgeon said it's the very last option, with the suggestion that I would want to avoid it if at all possible. (Oh and the not entirely fictitious person I don't know, whose hearsay has reached me, is a doctor. Apparently. He has a knackered back, and won't go for the op, for fear of what might go wrong.) If ever I need it, I'll have it done, and maybe even try running, since I know someone who's managing fine, running after the op.
Not the news you were hoping for then Gary - so sorry about that. I think I have already previously mentioned my husband who cannot run (and very disappointed about it). He has been biking as you are and has got more into it and also had tried some table tennis and enjoyed that too. I don't know if that's something you would be interested in.
Obviously, you have to be good and do what the docs suggest but at the end of the day you must also do some stuff that makes you happy - what's the point otherwise? Whatever you do, please keep posting on the forum, your advice and support is very much appreciated by me and many others. Chin up!
Thanks Lynda. Biking is probably the option to pursue the most. The only real problem I have with it is that statistically speaking (though I don't have the numbers) it's a bit dangerous. In Durban everyone makes up their own traffic rules, and the only one that seems to be widespread is that big, strong vehicles are more important than little weak ones like bicycles (though to go with that is a completely contradictory law that says every cyclist is dancing with death, and needs protection, or, failing that, a full overtake's worth of wide berth. I've had people come and take up station behind me on the bike to shepherd me along to the end of our common journey, even.)
To get to the city/beach (which would be the sensible place to go) I have to ride on a two lane highway (illegally, I think), because there just is no other way to get across the main ring road from here. It feels very, very exposed. But maybe if I get fitter I can take a wider detour, and maybe find something less hectic and aggressive.
Thanks. I've seen the standing desks. Something like that might be the business. I might also go back to trying to improvise a way of using the computer, standing. I own a one handed keyboard that I just need to repair properly (difficult part being undoing the bodge job I did last time)... There is always a way.
It's my civic responsibility, almost. Hopefully at some stage "Numb Toes" will become a tag that leads to search results that lead to this series of posts, and it will be the start of helping the next runner through here get informed when necessary. And there's a way.
Thanks. No, I just need to adapt. The interesting part will be seeing if I can adapt in "the right way". I now realise that I've always been capable of taking up running in the "punishment camp" way that most people who did it just suffered through before initiatives like c25k (if there was anything like it ever before). However, the chances of learning to like that bitter medicine, ever, would have been slim. Same thing goes for eg. spinning. If I go to "spinning boot camp", I will learn to have a "boot camp" mentality to spinning. I have experienced a boot camp mentality before (literally), and there's no love of exercise in it. So I need to find my way to that state of mind where missing the "run" makes you feel lousy, where I do these things for their own sake. To do that, I probably need to start in a "no pain, no pain" mindset, and strategy. We'll see.
Sorry about where all this seems to be leading Gary, but as others have said , it does not necessarily follow that you won't run again. If determination and sheer passion for the sport means anything then you will always be a runner and will get back to it. Healing vibes and best wishes coming your way. Keep us all posted.
It's about 3 year's since my wife was diagnosed with sciatica, the pain from that at the time she said was almost unbearable and thought she was dying, but I managed to calm her while she was having the attack, and it was found she has osteoarthritis in her lower & mid back and neck, but that's enough of the bad stuff! Guess what! she's recently been out run/walking with me, and is pretty bloody good at it to!
She is wanting to start c25k soon, and she has already been doing a weekly fitsteps class for the last year and a half and has been good. So think there's hope for you yet.
I just wonder if there is such a lot of impact damage caused by running, maybe over a long time. I think good running shoes are a must with the right support to correct over pronation, which would cause problems up through the body. I thought my shoes were good enough which I started running with about 4 months ago, but someone noticed that my feet were striking the ground oddly at times, so I had a gait analysis carried out on Saturday and was found I need more support, so it new shoe's for me.
Thanks for the hope. What I might try is the occasional run, properly barefoot, down the beach. That should sort out any protonation problem, and also reduce whatever impact there is, too. I just need to get fit enough to cycle there and back to do so, first, though.
For now, I'll humour the doctor about the impact story. Having about 4 days in a row, now, of total rest, the numbness does seem to have diminished a bit, so there could be something in what they say. If I just reduce the frequency of my runs enough (hopefully keeping enough specific fitness during eg the cycling or swimming), I could gamble on just postponing the day of reckoning, too. If I run three times less often, I should wear out three times as slowly, even on the most naive assumption of a direct relationship between the running and the nerve pressure (ignoring all the extra recovery time you get by spreading the running out)... But I see I'm drifting toward doing the Forbidden Thing that way, so I'd better not think about it too much for now.
Hearing of people who run in spite of this definitely gives some hope, anyway.
Thanks Richard. Keep succeeding like you've been doing, and I'm going to start saying to myself, "Hey, if he can do, so can I" ... Jokes aside, it is inspiring (with mumbled apologies to all for the exhalted word). Our stories are inspiring. We're in the same pit so much of the rest of the world is in, and then we find a way out like this. There's hope.
Swimming is at least something I do in good style. An older cousin taught me how to swim crawl properly (or rather undid my dad's work - Dad had the "farm dam style" of crawl, where you just create a big enough bow wave to keep your head well up at all times). It's something that's really satisfying when it's going well. Get your nose angled just so, and it creates a little "breathing hole" in the water for your mouth, paddle so, and your arms propel you better, etc. On a good day I can even tumble turn, which feels nice when you manage to do it in a relaxed enough manner. On bad days, swimming can get quite scary, of course. It can seem like a very long way to the edge of the pool, when you're taking on board water.
Same cousin also tried to teach me how to play cricket. That was an utterly hopeless cause. I don't think it's possible to have a "couch to six balls not out" course for everyone; some can do that stuff, and others need helmets with steel stuff to save their teeth.
Back to the 21st century ... Yes, the rower at the gym was something my doctor suggested, too. That actually looks interesting. I must ask how to use it, next time I'm there.
I'm very sorry to hear this, Gary. All the best with whatever you decide to do. You're a determined chap, and I'm sure you'll find a way to do something to keep your mind engaged and your body active. Stay healthy and safe, and keep us all up to date.
Thanks. I'll stick around here, anyway. And I will probably chance the occasional run at some stage, even. The period of total rest is over, so it's back to gym to spin later on.
I'm so sorry to hear this. But you've got such a positive attitude, it's a real inspiration. Best wishes for all your 'seated' activities! And fingers crossed maybe the situation will improve in time.
Thanks Laura. Turns out I haven't completely forgotten how to swim, at least. It also turns out that the old me is still around. I got myself an Aquatrainer, which is a floation device that goes round your back, which you fasten round the waist. It keeps your head up out of the water without any need to paddle to manage this. The idea is that you "aqua-run" in this (and it's quite hard work).... hmm .... but old me was quick to see that it makes a really nice bench to sit on and do nothing. At the moment, I have the excuse of rehabilitation, but I can't often deceive my own self. I was just being lazy (and very pleased to be so).
I have a herniated disc, although it doesn't sound as bad as yours. My osteopath has said I'm not really a candidate for an op, we keep it pretty much under control. It normally "slips" although that's not really the right word, about once or twice a year. I agree sitting is what causes the pain, or lying in bed too long, moving around is better, even when I'm in agony. I haven't had a serious episode since I started running, but that might be down to the very strong drugs I get from the doc in France, I don't think they are available in UK. The French doc was not surprised when I told him I am better now I run, I haven't seen my osteo to tell him as I've been ok-ish these last 18 months. You will have to work out what works for you, what ever you do take it slowly and wait and see how you feel after a couple of days before you go out again. Hope you get it sorted it's awful isn't it? XX
Thanks. So then there's quite a bit of hope if I just stay sensible about this, then. At this stage I think the op is just the penalty I've been warned I'll pay if I'm silly about this, and just pretend nothing's wrong. So far there's been very little pain involved, at least (although pain at least puts the brakes on well). While I can, I'm doing things like spending longer than I would otherwise do in the pool, small experiments with swimming and "aqua-jogging", and keeping fit by doing gym and spinning. I also walk an amount determined by how numb I get. I treat walking as "high impact" on the numb days.
And yes, it's something I could really do without, but I'm managing to stay active (which I didn't manage when I was couch-bound - to an extent that now makes me wonder how I survived the deprivation). It'll be as all right as it can be, I suppose.
I wonder if there's an "annual checkup" way of dealing with this (thinking about others who are on their way here) instead of the "management by crisis" we currently apply? Are there any signs that one's spine is at risk. I mean you got yours when you were very active, didn't you? Belly dancing and ... one tends to forget the other stuff after that ... yes ... It's probably not enough just to tell people to get some exercise. There must be some kinds of early warnings. It's not something that develops overnight. But you'll probably find there's been no research into it. It's like the pharmaceutical industry: Research follows where the money leads, and the money is not being invested in cures or prevention (low profit); the investors are after research that leads to a lifelong, expensive treatment. Big money in that. (No conspiracy, just human nature, and conflicting aims that don't get resolved by just leaving things be).
I've had my problem nearly all my life, I fell off a space hopper when I was about 12 - (yes, that shows my age!) I'm sure that was the beginning of my problems, then I got scoliosis as I grew up. I have quite a curvature, although most people don't notice it. I was told I'd be in a wheel chair by the age of 16... I wasn't really active until my late 20s when I started body building/weight training. I really didn't fancy the chair option, so I've just kept as active as I can since. The running started last year when I realised all my ear problems and dizzy spells were related to swimming, so that had to go, which was an enormous blow, I love swimming. I think the endorphins released by exercise have helped me enormously, plus being bloody minded! The pain I have during a full blown episode is huge, sometimes it can last for 3-4 weeks. I've got better at managing it, and knowing when I've done something that's put that disc out, and taking steps to try and head off the worst "flare-ups". The anti-inflammatories from France have helped more than I can say.
Have you thought about pilates, or other exercise regime that strengthens your core muscles? My osteo was happy about my belly dancing for that reason, as long as I didn't do certain movements...
Maybe I must go in for a more systematic approach than somewhat sporadic reverse crunching and planking to deal with the core. I'm not that keen on doing "team exercise", though, so there are some obstacles to get past. But what am I talking about? For the sake of stabilising my core, and keeping that as safe as I can, it's worth putting up with a lot more than that.
So you've had an entire lifetime of back trouble? Although it looks like you've proven that exercise can keep it under control to some extent, then. But you must be several levels beyond just plain bloody minded to pull something like that off.
I must keep at my swimming to find out whether I can enjoy it enough to keep diving in when the temperature falls below 18 degrees. I enjoy wallowing around more than the swimming at the moment, I think. My earplugs might need replacing sooner than I'd thought, though, because they're not even slightly watertight. Swimming's nice until it turns into half-drowning. It's also a bit more alarming finding that there might not be enough left in you to make it to the other side, where, out running, you can just stop. I suppose it's possible to just stop and float for a bit to regain one's breath. In fact a "c25k" swimming programme would probably need to alternate between floating and swimming. When Laura says your 3 minutes rest has arrived, you just slow down, roll over, and float there for a bit...
So sorry to hear this, Gary. Thanks to the hypermobility I have a permanently slipped disc between my shoulder blades which the physio got cross with (I could feel it popping back out of position as he tried to manipulate it back into place, session after session). Eventually we gave up and decided that as it wasn't causing any problems (it had been trapping something and causing tingling in my left arm, but he'd managed to get it in a better but still incorrect position) we'd leave it alone (it will eventually wear away). I also have a twist in my ribcage, one shoulder is hitched up and ditto the hips. My physio recommended getting fitter and building my core strength to take the pressure off that region of my back. So, slowly, I listened to him.
I think you'll come to enjoy the swimming best r.e. fitness. Alternatively, you can always run in the pool!
Wow! And you still manage to run? That's amazing. I suppose if you do it carefully enough it helps clear away inflammation products etc. I suppose, also, that things like this that you're born with, your body has mostly adapted to. (I have an aunt who was always on the athletics team at school, who can turn herself into knots, so it certainly didn't harm her. But it's not always so, I see.) The message I'm getting here, anyway, is "Never say Never". Keep trying; see what becomes possible.
Thanks for the link. I've mainly done floundering with the belt so far, and maybe I can start to do something more "runningly".
The hyper mobility was just part of being me (I thought anyway, it was only when it was recognised - is diagnosed too strong a word? - two years ago that a lot of weird problems added up and made sense). A car accident at eighteen resulted in upper back pain, which I was told "would get better with time." Of course it didn't and the hitched shoulder and rib issue has as much to do with bad posture over the years as anything else. It hurts in a sort of background ache way all the time, but I have balanced up taking painkillers constantly against being awake and not feeling sick and generally I go drug free. I do not let myself be a martyr to it - I take painkillers when I have to.
I am annoyed I can't do yoga. Used to enjoy it, couldn't understand why people couldn't do the poses. Physio banned me - said that I was too bendy as it was and said no more yoga. I am allowed to do Pilates and might even get around to it one day.
The only way it really impacts on running is my constant worry about spraining an ankle. I usually do this once if not twice a year and am dreading the next time.
Maybe for the running side you should run in boots? Or somehow splint up your nicely padded trainers into a form of "boot"? I suppose the problem with that would be that then the sprain would just find somewhere else to migrate to, and all the options are worse than the ankle.
Your attitude to a difficult situation is really admirable. And I for one definitely think you are a really great, supportive member of this community, so please do keep "hanging out with these other runners"!
Your situations sounds more serious than mine, so disclaimer on everything I am about to say(!), but for what it's worth I have back problems too - I was born with a wonky vertebrae in my spine and I have mild scoliosis and bad posture. Physiotherapists and GPs have always advised me to swim or cycle but not to jog/run because of the impact. My problem was before C25K I tried but could never motivate myself to keep at the swimming or cycling so just spent lots of time on my bum doing nothing and being lazy!
It got to the point where I couldn't find an exercise that suited me, and I thought "Well, surely giving running a go is better than sitting around never doing any exercise". And that's when I started C25K, and I've stuck at it longer than I have anything before.
Ramble over... what I'm saying is, if you get on with swimming and cycling, great, and they are probably better and safer for you. If not, then I would probably agree with you that some gentle running is better than nothing at all! It was for me anyway. Walking is another option I suppose?
Thanks for the encouragement, Sarah. At the moment I seem to be compromising. I got myself an Aquatrainer belt for deep water "running", and I've tried to spend a deliberately long time in the water on both days of this weekend. Yesterday I wallowed, then aquajogged, and then did a bit of swimming, and today I aquajogged more to stretch the right hip (which just wakes up tight for some reason, some nights) than to "run". By the time I was ready to start my swimming I had to bail out, because I started getting cramps (I've always been very prone to cramping, and it surprised me that this never happened during c25k). To me the cramps just mean I've pushed something right to its limits. Good sign in the current situation. The good news is that I'm almost sure that my numbness has improved over just this weekend. I still wake up with a numb right foot (no posture control while asleep), but during the day it's gone. It might be the rest the spine gets, floating.
Thanks. As long as I can find another sustainable form of exercise / teach myself to like the alternatives, I should be OK. And when I mend, I think I'm going to do things like experimenting with the occasional run, barefoot down the beach. I know that there's no shoe that gives you as much feedback as your foot, and to cope with impact, feedback is going to be a first requirement. If that turns out to be a mistake it's going to cost a bit of time to fix it, but ... we'll see. Swimming might even be the way to go.
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I'll swim further and further. Might even one day get brave and swim out to the shark nets and back. I'll keep tackling this thing.
All of you doing the 5x50 challenge get your tape measures out..
Week One ticked off! Proud as a very proud thing! So, that's proud, then.
Procrastination ... and then some!
Aren't you all doing well.
W4R1, It was all going so well...
