Nattokinase Serrapeptase & Ablation

[RosaAlba]

I have paroxysmal atrial fibrillation and have been told I need an ablation. Unfortunately, I am a poor metabolizer of most medications, especially those I would need to take in order to have the ablation, i.e. blood thinners, medications for rate control, rhythm control and blood pressure. Genetic tests have confirmed this.

1 - Has anyone successfully used nattokinase and serrapeptase as blood thinners? If so, how do you calculate the dose?

2 - What blood tests can confirm whether I am sufficiently anticoagulated?

3 - Has anyone had an ablation using nattokinase and serrapeptase as blood thinners? I can tolerate Heparin for a short period of time in order to have the surgery. But it's the post surgery blanking period, during which I would need daily blood thinners, that has me worried.

Thanks in advance!

[BobD Volunteer]

Doesn't look promising . There is no way to acurately control these non pharma substances and since you need to be anticoagulated for at leaast a month prior to ablation and probably three months afterwards your options are limited. Warfarin efficacy can be assessed by INR testing but this is not appropriate for the four DOACs which work on a different part of the clotting process so none in answer to Q2.

Remember we are not medically trained here to best discuss with your EP.

[RosaAlba in reply to BobD]

Thank you for taking the time to comment. Here's my situation. Since I am an ultra rapid metabolizer of the DOACs they are on my do-not-prescribe list due to the risk of therapeutic failure. I am a poor metabolizer of Coumadin so can only be prescribed 35% of a normal dose. That's not enough to achieve anticoagulation.

You're right, my options are limited, but I am hoping that someone here may have had a positive experience with Nattokinease and Serrapeptase or any other non-pharmaceutical that I can report to my EP in my next appointment.

I fear that this problem will rule out an ablation, but I would like to know what other options I have to control the afib. Does anyone out there have a similar problem to mine? How do you handle it? I feel like a sitting duck for the inevitable stroke. Thanks again for your comments.

[BobD Volunteer in reply to RosaAlba]

I quote Prof Richard Schilling in saying "Any and All treatment for AF is only ever about quailty of life " (QOL). There is also little difference in final outcome be it rate control, rhythm control or whatever provided that heart rate is well controlled and the patient is anticoagulated.

Whilst I am a great fan of ablation I accept that it is not for everyone but a long shot might be prior installation of a Watchman or similar device if you are unable to take anticoagulants. It might be worth investsigating if you are determined.

[Glenlyon]

It’s a complicated situation - It’s feels like Russian roulette whenever I am offered medication or procedures that require anaesthesia. I’m glad though that you have a list of drugs based on your profile valuable knowledge - I’m in Australia- may be different where you are - was it testing you did through a specialist that gave you an understanding of which drugs aren’t a good choice for you? I’m not medically trained but was told by someone who had a systemic reaction to certain drugs that they were consulting an immunologist in an attempt to discern what drug would be suitable for a particular purpose - I’m not sure of the process but it made me wonder whether whether, when reactions are profound and the drug is necessary, ithere might be a way to gradually challenge your system until it’s tolerable? Could all be imagined possibilities on my part but might be worth asking. I expect others here will be able to offer more concrete advice but I do feel for your predicament and am wishing you well

[Hidden]

I can see you are searching for reassurance from anyone who has already gone through what you are about to .. but here are a few thoughts that may help.

Most Doctors do not understand the principle of a protease enzyme… why would they?

It is not part of their journey to becoming a fully fledged doctor.

Interestingly Dr Sanjay Gupta has made a video on YouTube on Natto and Afib.. worth watching… he openly admitted as a cardiologist that he had no concept on nattokinase… so he researched .. and fair play to him.. has given it a thumbs up for Afibbers.

Serrapeptase is the weaker version and may suit you better.. it is short acting.. 60,000 spu is 27mg and last for up to 6 hours … it works differently to most thinners because it really dissolves fibrin strands .. this is the webbing made by the body to “contain” a clot… it also removes scar tissue and may possibly reverse Afib if that is caused by poor blood flow.

I use 60,000 spu (serrapeptase units) once a day…you can take up to 120,000 daily (56mg)which is equivalent to 40,000 fu of nattokinase..but most only use 20,000 fu of natto or 30,000 spu of Sera per day…it helps with inflammation and reducing plaque too.Brst taken one hour before a meal or two hours after… because it “eats” protein so it becomes an expensive digestion aid if taken with food.

Dr Peter McCullough another famous and worthy cardiologist has put nattokinase dosing at 20,000 to 60,000 fu… and seems quite happy to use it with other thinners such as curcumin…yes if you start to bleed from the nose or notice blotches on your body of red then you would need to lower the dosage… but like serrapeptase it is short acting and does not have a half life… so stopping or reducing is fairly quick at fixing

Clotting problems…it is gentle on the lining of the digestive tract where as something like aspirin which is more powerful is not.

If you smoke or consume sugar .. stopping both with improve blood flow…and reduce stickiness viscosity of thick blood.

Please try not to worry and discuss everything with your doctor before this procedure.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to Hidden]

Very good description of these enzymes. I take them myself and consult with the person that is the CEO of the company I order from. He also has AF and uses these products also. I also listen to Dr. McCullough and his use of nattokinase claiming more effective than prescribed anti coagulants in some of the blood clots. I showed this product to my cardiologist but he knew nothing about them so no help there.

[MKG50 in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

Please can I ask which company you order your Nattokinase from and what dosage you take? I see numbers of 20000 FUs being quoted here but most supplements I've seen offer only 2000 FUs and recommend taking only one capsule a day. I'm confused.Thanks for any advice.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to MKG50]

I order from World Nuitrition but one has to be a practitioner to order the Nattokinase, but it’s not hard to get approved. I take their product called nattovita which has the Nattokinase along with Vitalzyme XE with is the heavy duty enzyme with Serrapeptase. As far as the amount of Nattokinase it actually doesn’t say. But my go to person said to take 2 twice a day, so that is what I do. I will look into how much is exactly in the product and find out.

[MKG50 in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

Thank you so much. I would be grateful. I am seeing my EP today as I want to come off Apixaban. I have tried this and Edoxoban but have suffered from really nasty side effecs with both. I'm very drug sensitive and if quality of life is what we are striving for, mine is pretty poor at the moment ! I've only had one bad episode of Afib and one small blip. Nothing since last December. They've found nothing wrong with my heart. In my case the drugs have been far worse than the ailment.Thanks again.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to MKG50]

My cardiologist told me that if the AF episodes are under 24 hours I didn’t need an anti coagulant, and my age being under 75. I just turned 74 and he said we would visit it again in a year. So this sept I am supposed to see mine again. Taking Nebivolol has helped me but I do that the enzymes anyway because they are so good for so many things.

[phone]. Tom Miano is my contact and he also has AF on occasion. You can go to the website also but these products aren’t on it so you must call, Tom will answer. he will gladly answer all your questions.

[MKG50 in reply to Peacefulneedshelp]

Thank you. That is so helpful. I saw my EP today. We had a long conversation about the side effects which I attribute to Apixaban, QOL etc. and agreed that as my risk of stroke is only 2% and I haven't had an episode of Afib since last year that I should stop the Apixaban for 2 months to see if it is that which is causing my problems. I am so delighted. I've been feeling awful for such a long time. At least I'll have a definitive answer. Meanwhile I'll try the Nattokinase.Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[Peacefulneedshelp in reply to MKG50]

The thing is so many things can cause stroke, diabetes just to name one. My mother had only high blood pressure and she had a stroke so who knows.

[Hidden in reply to MKG50]

Yes some labels on these products have the wrong FU rating…I bought some recently that had 20,000 fu on the bottle label yet 2,000 on the insert…fibrinolytic units should be 2,000 per capsule… and are short acting lasting 6-8 hours.. therefore three capsules should be the safe maximum per day… but only if you have been diagnosed with a clot in either the leg or lungs…providing you are not using aspirin or warfarin…

One capsule a day is perfectly safe and a good idea if you have high blood pressure .. as it is proven to remove plaque buildup in the circulation… the less plaque the lower the blood pressure… stiff joints due to old injuries respond well as this will remove old scar tissue if it’s fibrin… women with fibroids too.

During trials in Japan they ran 60,000 fu daily for 10 weeks with no reports of excessive bleeding.

[sunlovah]

Is there a test for establishing if you are a poor metablisor and what are the symptoms please? I have been struggling for months with thinners, taken 3 only Dabogitron and Warfarin left.

[RosaAlba]

Thanks to everyone who replied! I will keep the dosing info in mind and adjust what I'm taking. I watched the Sanjay Gupta video on nattokinase. That gives me some hope! I've made an appointment with his associate Dr Nassir who is an EP.

As far as I know it's not an immune problem. After years of serious reactions to every kind of pharmaceutical, I did genetic testing with special emphasis on those drugs relating to cardiac treatment. Most are metabolized in the liver by cytochrome P450. It's a good guideline, but it's limited to the current medical knowledge. I've had serious reactions to drugs I should have been able to take normally. So I've got some genetic defect they haven't tested for yet.

Now I'm afraid of taking anything that's not natural. That's why I'm grasping at straws on natto and serra.

It's also a quality of life issue at this point. The side effects are often too severe to put up with, like insomnia, liver damage, unbearable itching, etc.

Thanks again to everyone who replied!

[Hidden in reply to RosaAlba]

Natto is about 30 times more potent than Serrapeptase.. so a good starting point is Sera.

Remember one hour before food or two hours after… most days I take last thing at night because when we are not moving.. we want our blood to keep moving… the body needs s in rest and repair mode so enzymes work where needed.

[RosaAlba in reply to Hidden]

Do you happen to know if it's safe to also take curcuma along with the natto and serra? What about also adding vitamin K2? Any opinion on which is the best combination? Thanks!

[Hidden in reply to RosaAlba]

As you probably know… curcuma (turmeric) is a great anti-inflammatory but does thin blood and so adding “ other” things that also thin blood can probably push things too far…I find when my blood gets too thin.. I get ear ringing and dizziness upon standing.. so learn to recognise altered changes…that happen as you try these supplements.

I am suggesting this to those who get “pains” in limbs that seem to move from place to place…

K2 simply redirects calcium from soft tissue to bones and teeth… it comes from fermented soy…natto … but is not like the nattokinase I recommend which is free from k2.

My take is try serrapeptase first most serrapeptase supply 30 mg in each capsule that’s 60,000 spu… and often people take one twice a day as it is short acting 6-8 hours.…k2 low dose at first…ideally with Vit D3 will help draw down calcium deposits in soft tissue both with improve cardiac blood flow without messing up platelet function… magnesium taurate (350-500mg daily) these are proven to help without causing further problems… nothing too drastic.

Long term ..You must get your blood checked periodically via a doctor if you are on any anticoagulants if you have any concerns…

I hope those suggestions are helpful.

[RosaAlba in reply to Hidden]

Thanks so much. It's evident you have lots of experience with these supplements and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I will watch out for the symptoms you mentioned. I have been taking Natto 2000Fu for two months and tolerate it well. You mentioned a blood test to monitor it. Could you please tell me which markers I can check for to know if it is working? Thanks again.

[Hidden in reply to RosaAlba]

That should be more than enough as a preventative and helpful in reducing any existing fibrosis…

[JefferyW]

I would enquire with your cardiologist / EP whether you would be eligible for a Watchman device. I had one as part of a medical trial but I understand that they are used with patients who cannot take anti coagulants. Worth investigating. The procedure is relatively straightforward.

watchman.com/en-us/home.html

[RosaAlba in reply to JefferyW]

Thank you. I was told I would have to take anticoagulants in order to have a Watchman device implanted. So that option was discarded. Did you have to take anticoagulants? For how long? Thanks.

[JefferyW]

I was scheduled to take Clopidogrel for 3 months and Aspirin after my Watchman was fitted but stopped after 2 months as didn’t get on with Clopidogrel . I continued with low dose Aspirin on advice from my Dr but it’s not mandatory.