Nattokinase or serrapeptase instead of usual blood thinners

[ornella]

Hi guys, has anyone used Nattokinase or Serrapeptase as a blood thinner with paroxysmal af? I was wondering if I can take them during an episode as a blood thinner instead of injected heparin as doc suggested. I am 0 in CHAD'S score and my afib is one episode after 3 months usually after emotional stress. There is much conversation about fibrinolytic properties of Natto and ability of serrapeptase to get through stomach acid in order to work. Thanks.

[BobD Volunteer]

There is no natural or herbal way to accurately anticoagulate. Blood thinners is a totally incorrect but often used description which does not describe the function of such drugs as warfarin or any of the DOACs. IF you need to be anticoagulated then please don't rely on something which can not be measured. With a CHADSVASC score of 0 you may decide on no anticoagulation. (CHADS is less accurate a predictor) so why take something you don't need which may affect you in other ways?

[ornella in reply to BobD]

Thank you Bob.

[Slattery]

I take 2,000 FUs of Nattokinase daily. My doctor is not concerned with any side effects, I do notice my blood pressure has never been better since I started Taking Nattokinase . I am not sure if it is because of the Natto, but I am happy with the results.

[julesvm]

I've read positive things about Nattokinase but I am now exploring Vitamin E therapy as I'm determined to get off Warfarin. I have tried the Noacs and the side effects are shocking. Warfarin doesn't have any negative effect on me but obviously is not something that I care to take. You may wish to read about Vitamin E.

[secondtry]

Thanks for raising this point, I am interested in any such info as I will be looking at ACs again next year and much prefer reducing the risk without warfarin or NOACs, especially if there are other benefits.

[ornella]

I have made a research in Natto but I was hoping that there might be someone in the af community taking it regularly who would give us a feedback as I have read about docs claiming that it has a fibrynolitic effect in thrombi that shouldn't be dissolved. Unfortunately not many docs reading our comments that could help.

[Mike11]

I think this article puts it well

cureality.com/blog/post/200...

Complex molecules like this are always broken down in the stomach before being passed into the blood stream - that's what the stomach is designed to do after all.

[ornella in reply to Mike11]

I am aware of this article, thank you Mike but in pubmed there are articles saying the opposite. In order to get over the stomach acid the pills are enteric coated.

[Mike11 in reply to ornella]

Kinases and peptases are too complex to be eaily absorbed by the small intestine without being broken up by the stomach acid so the amount actually taken into the body will both be small and totally random depending on numerous factors such as recent meals and drinks, blood pressure and SpO2 level.

And if you are only taking them during an AF episode, it will be far too late before they can make any effect, as indeed will be the case with heparin as well of course unless you store it yourself in the fridge. Thus it's unwise to put faith in any 'instant' anti-coagulant (NOT blood thinners - whoever invented that term should have been shot) be it natural or heparin when trying to avoid having a stroke.

Thus you would really need to take your suggested drugs daily, not just when in AF which leads to the problem of measuring dosage. Daily dosing of established anti-coagulants offers far better protection, be it natural warfarin or the newer NOACs, as the effects of either are well measured and understood, and can usually be taken long-term without side effects.

Of course in time suitable measurement routines may be established for your suggestions should they be proven to work, but they don't exist at the moment and until they do their use cannot be recommended.

[JuliaJa]

I was on Natto because I didn't want to be on Coumadin after I was diagnosed with AFib. I got a blood clot in my femoral artery. Kind of sorry I didn't go on Coumadin.

[Morristhecat in reply to JuliaJa]

Julia,

I'm sorry to hear you have a terrible femoral artery blood clot! I imagine it has been painful and has slowed you down quite a bit. Since this isn't a deep vein thrombosis, has your doctor indicated what might have been the cause of an arterial clot?

Do you have a clotting disorder or had a recent infection? Developing an arterial clot in the femoral artery would seems to indicate your blood may be hypercoagulable.

The arterial blood flow is highly pressurized by the heart's pump, so clots rarely form in the arteries. They are more likely to form in the veins due to low pressures & slower blood return to the heart by valves squeezing it back up against gravity. Has doc done more investigation to determine how the arterial clot formed or why you are making clots to begin with?

I am also curious about the nattokinase regimen you were on while you were taking nattokinase. Would you be willing to share what dose you were taking, how often, and whether you took it on an empty stomach or with food/drink? Also, were you taking any other medications?

I am curious because I have been taking nattok/serra for several months and take it on an empty stomach. I read that taking on an empty stomach causes natto & serra to absorb systemically. Whereas, when taken with food or other drinks, it simply becomes a digestive enzyme--which isn't technically bad, but it isn't the reason I am taking it, of course.

I have read many research articles showing people achieve lower cholesterol equal to a statin drug, anticoagulanion, virus spike protein blocking, fibrin dissolving, neurological & anti-inflammatory benefit when taking natto & serra.

Japan has a lengthy safety profile of natto when used for dissolving uterine fibroid tumors and I used natto 16 years ago to dissolve a fibroid. My ob/gyn suggested a hysterectomy & said uterine fibroids never go away & have no other treatment but surgery. Since many people develop fibrin clotting with covid infection, I started down a rabbit hole of how natto can be used to treat covid & long covid. Initially, my interest in natto came from the female issues for which I had great success despite my ob/gyn's claim. Now, natto has popped back into my orbit for covid, but seems to be a research focus for a multitude of other health issues.

I hope you are healing and that your doctor is finding a good solution for you and your blood clotting problem. Best of luck in your future and wish you good health😊

[solarjdo69]

Ornella - I'm trying to find my post on Natokkinase that I posted a while back. I was on Warfarin and decided to go natural and take 2 200fu Nattokinase daily, usually at night b4 bedtime. I 2 or 3 times a week add 1 or 2 serapeptase.

I test how my blood thinners are working by occasionally if it doesn't happen accidentally by inducing a SMALL cut and timing how long it takes to clot. I take a combination of Nattokinase/serappeptase and also take daily 2 400iu "E", 1 850 Turmeric capsule, 1 CoQ10 250mg. 3 times a week I add vitamin D3 400iu

[ornella in reply to solarjdo69]

Wow solarjdo69 that's wonderful dear, although I think you are taking big doses of the above, Vitamin D3 must be taken daily, Q10 must be Ubiquinol, as Ubiquinon is not absorbed easily, vitamin E is high, turmeric is o.k but I think that in order to beat af you need some lifestyle changes like losing a lot of weight if you are over weight, fight sleep disorders, be stress free, and the most important if you ask me is to eliminate SIBO (small intestine microbial overgrowth) because this puts the gastroesopahngeal nerve out of order causing arryhtmia. To beat SIBO needs a lot of effort, no sugar, no alcohol, no dairy, no grains, no coffee, low carbs and for me it is only fresh fish and organic chicken for protein and some low carb vegetables, almonds, eggs, and low carb fruits. LOWFODMAPS diet. Serrapeptase is great killing also the biofilm that bacteria make to protect themselves from antibiotics, helped me get rid of helicobacter pylori, and is a great blood thinner, I am not persuaded about Nattokinase general safety first because it is derived from soya and I avoid all soya products, I know that it is fermented and all but still, and also I have read something about it that I didn't like but can't remember now what was it exactly. It is nice though that i have your testimony that it works well for you so that is nice to know in the future. You seem to have a lot of knowledge in supplements for af and you are doingt he right thing avoiding all the chemical anticoagulants which have many serious side effects in the long run.

[solarjdo69 in reply to ornella]

Thanks for the great info! I have been working on my weight. Since September I've lost 12lbs (target is 50 lbs more!). I do think I may have to much bacteria but I just recently started taking liquid probiotic. which seems to be helping. This is due to my wife who did just get diagnosed with a sibo infection so I am following suit. She has been talking about the LOWFODMAPS diet, but I haven't joined her yet.

I normally drink 1 or two beers or some wine each night, but just this week have had none starting last Sunday. Hard to fight the urge but I already sleep better and some ingredients in beer (probably our fine(LOL) US adulterated wheat) makes my skin break out. I'm going to check out the gatrointestinal nerve issue you mentioned. I was unaware of that, but it appears that many of our modern ailments are due to bad nutrition and or mistreating our gastrointestinal tract.

Cheers!

[solarjdo69 in reply to solarjdo69]

One more about the "E" levels. I had about 40 years ago taken as much as 1600iu a day and it didn't cause me too much issues. It was to get rid of plantars worts. I read that it could help. Skin specialist had me using some cream to peel away the skin layers and "bing" the warts to surface so he could burn or freeze them out. I used thew high does "E" and in 64-6 days the smallest turned black on the inside core. In 2 weeks the small ones fell out and later the "big boy" (went from top to bottom of big toe) fell out too. Left small dents in my feet that eventually filled in. I kept taking for 30 days after to ensure they were dead.

I don't stick to a hard and fast 2 "E"s every day and turmeric is sometimes 3 days a week. I'm going to try substituting the serapeptase for the nattokinase per your suggestion and see how that works since I have it.

Thank you again.

[ornella in reply to solarjdo69]

If you want to get some great news about AF and the gut connection as well as other stuff on that issue you can follow Professor Prash Sanders on twitter as well as Dominique Linz, they are both amazing guys, this is kind of medicinal twitter but as I see you have the knowledge to understand what they are talking about, every day they make small anouncements in their inquieries about afib, you can follow me also on twitter if you want, my name is Dina Kostarelou, see what I have managed to do to be AF free following their advice. Gut is the main organ that is suffering nowadays and all the diseases are due to that. Your main intention must be to treat gut issues, beer and wine is a big no no for gut health. Small intestine is supposed to be an aseptic environment where food is decomposed and absorbed from the body but because we age the ileotropic valve which is found in the end of small intestine and opens when food has been digested to empty it to the big intestine, stays loose all the time , as a result bad bacteria from the big intestine enter the small one and there they find much food to feed themselves and become more, those bacteria first they make hydrogen and methanium which is why peoples bellies are so big nowadays distending the tummy which is bad for the pneumonogastric nerve which is been pressured causing af and second their shit after been fed is casing an immune response as the body is not supposed to have such stuff in the small intestine and it is irritated. Beer and wine are two foods that increase those bacteria population too much. Same do wheat porducts, dairy and most of all sugar. If you want to be af free you muct eliminate those from your diet. Also never drink cold drinks never because it also starts a nerve responce causing af. Sugar is in all the processed foods that people consume today, so we must be very careful and eat only food we make. You can also google doctror Markus Ettinger a great doc from Orange California because he is giving great tips in his site and he also posts on facebook, I love him, he also have helped me a lot. Hope the above help and if you have any questions I am here tho help. Please read Prash Sanders life style changes for af management.

[solarjdo69]

Found it! healthunlocked.com/afassoci...

[solarjdo69 in reply to solarjdo69]

You may have heard about this already but, here goes. Forks Over Knives. It's a story and a method of eating primarily vegetarian that I am looking at incorporating into our lives. It's very compelling. There is also the full video and a website. Forks Over Knives, Trailer youtube.com/watch?v=O7ijukN...(Not working as expected?)

forksoverknives.com/

Have a great day!

[Hidden]

Looks like a healthy diet but maybe the research data underpinning it could be stronger. I think we can probably all agree that obesity, smoking and urban pollution are more likely to shorten our lives than what we eat. Can’t we?

deniseminger.com/2011/09/22...