Natural Blood Thinners?: Hi..Anyone tried any... - AF Association

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Natural Blood Thinners?

Timeless1 profile image

Hi..Anyone tried any natural blood thinners eg ginger or Nattokinase? I have nothing against blood thinner drugs except they dont like me!! I had a succesful ablation almost 3 yrs ago but they thought i should take blood thinners still….hmm Warfarin didnt work.Then Dabigatran put me in hospital and Ive just given up on Apixaban which i endured on and off for a long time but want my life back from the side effects…Any ideas?You are a clever lot!!! Thanks Viv

100 Replies

Hi Viv, I wonder what side effects you are experiencing. Of course we are all different but when this question is raised, only a few talk about side effects regarding Apixaban so I wonder if you are taking other medication which could be causing you problems.

Clever I am definitely not, nor am I medically trained but over the years I have attended a large number of talks from NHS specialists who are and when questions are asked about natural anticoagulants, the answer has always been the same. They explain that the risk of a life changing stroke is the most important risk to control for patients with AF. They explain the process that all prescribed drugs have to go through to determine their efficacy before they can be offered to a patient and draw comparisons with natural therapies. I have no knowledge about what manufacturers of natural/alternative medicines say or do to prove the efficacy of their products. No doubt others may have a different view but please be sure that any natural medication you might take as an alternative will not increase or cause you to be exposed to a life changing stroke……

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to FlapJack

Hi..thanks for reply ..I agree its risky but I do not have AF at present..I had spitting some blood at night and stopped it ..my second time around this hasnt occurred but my bowels have seized up …the strong medication for that makes me feel sick and doesnt work well! Because of this im permanently tired …Im fully aware of risks of stroke ..just thankful that my opwas successful All good wishes Viv

FlapJack profile image
FlapJack in reply to Timeless1

I’m not sure if this will help and I’m sure it’s not something you will want to hear but it’s generally accepted that anticoagulants don’t actually cause bleeds but if a bleed occurs for any reason, they are likely to cause it to take longer to stem the bleeding. If you are spitting blood then there may be other things which should be investigated such as gum disease, stomach or throat problems etc. and this could also contribute to the other symptoms you describe so this should be discussed with your doctor to eliminate any other problems. Whether or not you have AF currently does not help, once someone is diagnosed with AF, most EP’s say the risk of stroke remains even after a successful ablation. I really do not want to frighten you but there are some forum members who are truly grateful that because they were taking anticoagulants, other problems were more quickly identified and treated much quicker than they might otherwise have been……please talk to your Doctor.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to FlapJack

Thanks for your time ..I dont thinkI made it clear sbout the time gap..I only had the blood ( a very small amount) occasionally and this was around 2 yrs ago.I came off apixaban for quite a while ..as the drs coudnt decide !I went back on it by choice around six months ago ( no bleeding)Im just bothered by present side effects..However ive had 2 kind replies not in favour of natural remedies and Ive decided to take it again tomorrow and try other means of settling my tummy..Ive not worried about stroke bec of no symptoms but I should do!..Thank you so much Viv

Hello Flapjack, I am intrigued when you mention that the risk of stroke remains after a successful ablation. I thought the risk came from the fibrillation and possible clotting occurring when that happens, and if that is removed the clotting cannot occur .My son had an ablation 16 years ago (extreme athlete) and has never had to take any drug since or had any recurrence of the AF although he is still very active. I come from a family with AF (there appears to be several genes responsible for familial AF )and I religiously take my Xarelto and rate controller although I am symptomless. I am now worried and concerned that my son should be taking an anti coagulant and I should persuade him to seek another opinion.

From what i understand it all depends on the CHADSVASC score. I was really disappointed that because I was over 75 after my first successful cardioversion that I couldn't come off the anticoagulants just because I was then over 75 so my CHADSVASC score went down by 1 point and then up by one point because of my age! I am pleased to say that despite being in Permanent AF I have had no side effects from Eliquis but can't take any rate control , beta blockers or calcium channel blockers as they make me more ill than the AF.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Desanthony

Thanks for your reply

Desanthony is right. If your sons CHADs score is 0 then there is no need for him to take an anticoagulant. If it’s 1, then an anticoagulant should be considered and if above 1 then it’s recommended. From what we are told, once AF is diagnosed, the characteristics of the heart which can cause blood to clot do not change after an ablation. Also, it’s possible for AF to occur when asleep and therefore be unaware. Most, if not all EP’s would encourage someone with a score of one or more to remain on anticoagulants.

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to FlapJack

Yes flap jack you’re right....mine happened a lot when I was asleep....I’ve had an ablation but in kept on tablets because how would I know in my sleep if it had come bavkSue

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Morzine

Ive heard that from a cardiologist too!

Hi flapjackI had a successful ablation and my cardiologist took me off all medication. I was on apixaban with terrible side effects like every muscle ached all the time, constipation, headaches, nose bleeds. All stopped now I'm not on it as he said I'm not at risk now. Curious as to different doctors recommending different things.

FlapJack profile image
FlapJack in reply to Georgia21

Just out of interest, how long ago did you have your ablation……l

Georgia21 profile image
Georgia21 in reply to FlapJack

November 27th at Broadgreen last year

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Georgia21

Thanks for that!

Hi Viv, I suppose if you are going to absolutely refuse to take a pharmacological medication for your condition, then any port in a storm. But it's as vague as that. All non pharma remedies are generally oversold and underdeliver and in addition are not scientifically tested for efficacy. It's almost always anecdotal, and, even though I was at one time taking turmeric as an anti-inflammatory, I had to guess my dose and could only 'feel' the result I was getting from taking it. And yet a doctor felt confident enough to tell me to stop taking it alongside a NOAC, (in my case, Apixaban). That's confusing is it not? It's suggesting that turmeric may be somewhat effective in terms of anti-coagulation, but how effective? So it would be a brave person who recommended any 'natural' remedy to you. And you might be considered foolhardy for taking it!You don't say what side effects NOAC's cause you. I definitely suffer itching skin and some hair loss from taking Apixaban, but when I weigh up the considerable risk of stroke against these, not having a stroke wins hands down, and I just put up with these. If your side effects are worse than this, and you are sure that it's the NOAC, then it's really difficult to tell you to take it regardless too, but do weigh up the perils of not taking it.

Thank you ..Yes I may well have to take it ..After a few months i was spitting a bit of blood up at night ..the drs didnt seem to know what to do ..I came off it as I dont have any AF at present..Then my consultant persuaded me to take it again and not to put a finer point on it my bowels have seized up and the medication for that is not great and makes me feel ill..so day before yest i stopped it again …I needed a break!Its hard to take it when you dont have Atrial fibrillation Many thanks for your reply and best wishes Viv

carneuny profile image
carneuny in reply to Timeless1

Hiya Timeless1,

No AF ? Or are you saying you just aren't experiencing symptoms at the moment, what if you still have it and its just hunkered down for winter right now, or until the right trigger comes along. Means you could be asymptomatic.

I did at least get in my diagnosis and in writing from my Consultant that in his view I could be asymptomatic at times.

The benefit of this is although my AF is paroxysmal, and very well controlled, at the back of my mind the monster could well be playing mind games with me ! So in terms of medication it does its job and I put up with it (I'm on Warfarin), so well controlled with diet and meds that I more or less live a normal life - but - don't misunderstand me - I have my breakthrough moments 4 or 5 times a year when AF returns and gives me a mugging. BUT I never know when it'll happen, not something I can forecast. So, I love those meds.

John

😂😂

Desanthony profile image
Desanthony in reply to Timeless1

I wish Eliquis caused my bowels to seize up now and again! :)

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Desanthony

We cant win!

Desanthony profile image
Desanthony in reply to Timeless1

I have bowel problems and have for many years before I ever took Eliquis. I just wish Eliquis had given me that particular side effect as I could come off other medication! 🤣

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to Desanthony

Me too!!!

Calendarsgal. Don't be too hasty...

There is an Afib group of serious professional people who manage to stave off Afib episodes, using supplements and vitamins to adjust their electrolyte balance.

I was so impressed that I started to follow their method (free and not promoted), two weeks ago.

From paroxysmal episodes every 3 days I am now (touch a big tree) nine days Afib free.

I am hoping for a 30 day Afib-free period and will report my findings to the group.

Saul (75 year old retired architect in Greece).

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to saulger

Could you tell me the name of the group please?

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to Timeless1

afibbers.orgSeek out the postings by SteveCarr and GeorgeN.

If all continues well I will send them big bottles of Champagne.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to saulger

Yes! Good luck!

Dee5165 profile image
Dee5165 in reply to saulger

Great to hear. I have been Afib free due to supplements and vitamins after suffering 24/7 for 6 months with Afib. Just an FYI, supplements and vitamins take approximately 8 weeks to show benefits.

Interesting saulger and here's hoping it all goes well for you. However, 'staving off' Afib episodes isn't at all the same as preventing potential blood clotting in the heart. Bisoprolol 'staves off' my episodes of PAF but I still need an anti-coagulant. Just because your heart doesn't feel as though it's leaping about in your chest, does not, on its own, mean that you are risk free from clots developing. I guess a lot depends on how much you want to reduce your risk of stroke. For me, living with the after-effects of a severe stroke equals a quality of life I don't want, so I will try to prevent one by the best means known to me as possible. And that's through conventional medicine.

But if you have a strong belief in this 'cure' it is of course your own decision. Your body, your choice. Just that the majority of the medical profession will not agree with you. And, just because a group of people are 'serious professionals' does not necessarily make their faith in this justified. But you clearly have faith, and it's not my intention to try to dissuade you, just point out to others, for safety's sake, that this may be more of a Russian roulette approach than the conventional one.

I totally agree. If you will scan the replies, I mentioned to Timeless1 that the Nattokinase is not a substitute for a DOAC, and also mentioned that one of the posters had a TIA whilst on Nattokinase.

Staving off AFib episodes IS a big deal.

The atrium beats at 300-600 bpm and cause damage to the heart muscles and tissue.

My resting HR (no medication) is 53 bpm. Blood pressure around 90/60 all my life.

No heart co-morbidities.

The bisoprolol drained me of energy and did not completely work to stop episodes.

The Flecainide 50mg twice a day, the same.

I have absolutely no problem is increasing my vitamin D3 level, reducing my calcium, and supplementing with magnesium (posted about this a few times before).

Nothing controversial medically. The proof is in the pudding and it's early days yet.

The majority of the medical profession have a great deal of faith in pharmeceutical options , the side effects of which can ruin a person's health and life and even kill them. Their tendency is to dismiss the dangerousness of such drugs until legal trials show that the efficacy of the drugs have been often been grossly exaggerated and their lethality hidden by manipulation of data - ie scientific fraud. The Pharma companies have paid out billions in fines this century alone for knowingly killing and damaging people. If a drug is causing unacceptable side effects then the hard choice is to weigh up the certainty of a miserable day to day existence against the possibility of a terrible outcome that might never happen. When it comes to anticoagulation this is a very difficult decision . It is not helped by all the people who chip in and say they have no side effects from DOACs .

Dee5165 profile image
Dee5165 in reply to Auriculaire

Finally, someone who did their research and spoke the truth. Bravo!

One can go on drugs.com and learn about the side effects from these Doacs. It's alarming the horrible side effects. Eliquis (apixaban) was barely approved by the FDA in the USA. People don't hear about the 7 year post drug trials. When the pharma companies look for any new side effects of drugs. Between the USA and the UK there are over a million people who die from side effects of pharma meds. I think big pharma, insurance companies and many Drs have all become like a horror movie. And the Drs are like Frankenstein. It's honestly frightening to go to the Dr anymore.

HermanNL profile image
HermanNL in reply to saulger

Hi there,

I am Marius, and I am living with this AF for the last two years. Please share your method with us. Keep safe!

😀

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to HermanNL

Good morning Marius. I have to say first that I am just eleven days AFib free but it's a big deal for me as I was having episodes every three days lately.I also take 50mg x 2 Flecainide, but I was doing for months that before also...

I found the original reference on the AFA site.

Someone mentioned Australian Steve Carr's success of living AFib-free without medication and I found his web site. He is not a crank; he has three daughters who are medical doctors.

carrafibdietinfo.com/

You will find all his findings there. It is based around raising the vitamin D3 level to 62-64 ng/mL, reducing calcium, taking magnesium, etc.

I also take Nattokinase which is made from fermented soya beans. Natto is a Japanese breakfast food that is rich in vitamin K (stops heart tissue and blood vessels calcifying) and consumed every day since childhood in Japan; the Japanese have the highest longevity and active in ageing of all nations.

What is important for us AFib sufferers is that statistically just 0.56% of people with AFib in Japan, whereas it is estimated to be 2.5% in the UK.

Also, follow Steve Carr and GeorgeN on the forum of Afibbers.org.

There, you will also come across a good bunch of people who have been successful at staving off episodes.

Good luck Marius. Don't stop your medication without qualified advice. I haven't.

Let us know how you feel.

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to saulger

Hello Marius and anyone else on the page.

I wanted to share something that was very surprising (shocking) in a happy way.

I've been using the WIWE heart monitor to record episodes of AFib.

I also use it when I am not symptomatic, just to be sure.

I've had it for some four months and have done at least a hundred readings.

I have NEVER but never had the three indicators flash green.

- The first indicator analyses a typical QRS heart wave and indicate visually prolongation, etc.

- The second indicator looks at a scatter graph of your HR to indicate arrhythmia.

- The third looks at ventricular repolarization heterogeneity.

What can I add. It is early days and I may fall on my face at any time with AFib rearing its ugly head. All the best to us all.

A WIWE heart ECG on 3rd December 2021.
HermanNL profile image
HermanNL in reply to saulger

Hi there,Thank you for your very valuable advice. I will do my homework and act accordingly. I will keep you posted! Best regards,

Hope you get it all sorted out Viv. I understand what you mean about not being in AF, but not being in it probably doesn't mean you don't have it, and I guess when a consultant suggests you should, it's reasonably good advice. Totally get your reticence though. I wouldn't enjoy spitting up blood either!

Thank you!

Many years ago I decided to try hawthorn tea as it is reputed to help the heart. Drinking it 3 times daily (not a pleasant experience), it took 3 months to influence my INR ( I was taking warfarin until the hawthorn took effect).

Next problem was taking it on holiday (world trip) and to crown the downside my hawthorn supplier could no longer provide the tea. I was left in the lurch so gave up and have successfully been taking warfarin ever since.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Izzle

Interesting..thank you

Dee5165 profile image
Dee5165 in reply to Izzle

I am doing fine with the Hawthorn supplements.

I'm one of the unlucky 30%+ who gets heavy muscle and joint pain from the entire class of blood thinners. After the pain cost me a job, I quit them. My diabetes still gives me pain so after trying aspirin which is recommended for thinning blood, I now take max doses of ibuprofen, mostly for the pain but I get a benefit of thinning blood with it. Aside from that, I understand that moderate doses of alcohol will also thin blood.

My electrophysiologist (fought my AFib and installed my pacemaker) is the one that advocates children's aspirin for thinning blood. While blood thinners take stroke risk down to 1-3%, the aspirin only takes it down to a 7% chance ( he supplied the figures). When I refused to take blood thinners anymore, he persuaded me to take the baby aspirin - the idea being it's better than nothing. That's my tale of woe, listen to it, remembering everybody's blood chemistry is different. Good luck!

KMRobbo profile image
KMRobbo in reply to Hi1endar

Not medically trained but NSAIDS such as Ibuprofen are associated with higher risk of AFib. Additionally I have also understood that they are associated with higher rates of blood clots in heart patients.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to KMRobbo

Thanks for reply ..I dont take these !

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Hi1endar

Thanks for your input! Good luck

As John says first questions, are you having AF episodes and sure you are not asymptomatic. Assuming no problem there, then next is your age, activity level and any other comorbidities as these may affect clotting issues; I am guessing the answer is no need for extra caution here either.

For me the decision therefore rests on QOL whilst avoiding complacency. I would probably postpone taking ACs but I would consider a variety of natural alternatives that may help a bit e.g. Krill oil, coQ10, garlic, turmeric, natto plus more water & exercise.

PS Most here take ACs based on medic advice heavily influenced (I suspect) by one study (as far as I have seen) that came out with a x5 more likelihood of stroke if you don't. If there is one thing I have learned from Covid treatments over the last 2 years it is you need much more than one study to provide conclusive proof of efficacy. Don't get me started on who funds these studies and their impartiality 🤔!

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to secondtry

Thank you for your input but i think my age (75 last week) has brought my score up..Id forgotten the score thing!I just dont have a very good track record with drugs I guess which makes me wary but Im going to give it another go..as it gets too complex without

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to secondtry

I meant to say that I agree with a lot you have said though!

You may want to try the number one blood thinner Eliquis, I have been on it for years with zero side effects. Expensive, but well worth the price for the safety it provides.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Davidgeri

I think you will find that is Apixaban!

Just a thought, have you tried Edoxaban and Rivaroxaban? One of those may suit you better. I have had all four NOAC’s and Warfarin. With all I seem to get a build up and then get severe nausea.

Currently I am alternating between Apixaban and Dabigatran. Three to six months of each depending on when the nausea starts.

I do find that all including Warfarin cause hair loss in my case.

I am very aware that I need to take anticoagulants, so I am trying to persevere in the best way that I can. The thought of a life changing stroke fills me with dread.

Val

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Mrsvemb

That’s interesting about alternating..may look into it ..hair loss not good ☹️but my hairdresser says not a bad idea for me as i have enough for 3 people! Its very thick…I wish you well

I take Nattokinase 100mg (2,000 FU) daily.

I was CHAD2VASC score of one until I turned 75 three weeks ago.

I have lone Afib (paroxysmal) and have a habit of banging my head, hence my reluctance to take the doctor-recommended Eliquis.

Please be warned that it is not a medically-recommended substitute, and a poster on Afibbers.org wrote that he had TIA episode whilst on Nattokinase.

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to saulger

I had a TIA while taking nattokinase. I went on Apixaban but am not happy on it. Before my hip op I decided to take a half dose of Apixaban and some nattokinase. This was an improvement as the full dose of Apixaban definitely worsens my joint pain. It also gives me reflux and bloating which actually makes my afib more likely! When I have got past the three month mark after the op I will probably return to this regime. I do not believe in one size fits all prescribing. I am pretty sure that I am a slow metaboliser of drugs ( given the length of time a small dose of painkiller or antihistamine lasts for me) and I have always got side effects from meds. This is even worse since being floxed. Everybody has to do what they feel is best to make their day to day life as comfortable as possible and personally after being floxed taking the word of doctors as gospel is not something I can do any more.

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to Auriculaire

I am sorry to hear. I hope that it was mild and you are fully recovered.As we get older we are forced to alter our lifestyle to match our age.

Do you know your blood level vitamin D3 (OH-25) ?

A higher blood level (allegedly) staves off AFib episodes.

All the best. Saul

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to saulger

It was extremely subtle and there was no sign of it on the scan. It occurred 6 months after an afib attack I am treated by my GP with Calcifediol drops for vit D . My level is very high -72ng/mL. It hasn't had any effect on my afib that I can see. But between that and the NAC I haven't had a respiratory infection for nearly 6 years.

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to Auriculaire

I am glad that there was no damage.

Wow, 72 ng/mL is wonderful. I was only 31.1 a few weeks ago.The magic number, according to the successful afibber.org people is around 64 ng/mL.

I trust that you are also taking vitamin K2 (MK7) to stop calcium buildup in the heart and arteries, and are avoiding stimulants such as coffee, chocolate, alcohol, etc.

It is also recommended by the same people to keep calcium intake to under 500mg a day. All the best with your Afib and wishing you good health. Saul

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to saulger

I do take vit K2. I probably have a bit more calcium in my diet as I take a small calcium supplement due to not earing much dairy. I can't drink coffee anymore😭 but I do eat a couple of squares of dark chocolate most days. As for alcohol I always drink wine with my principal meal but only a very small glass . My good vit D level is entirely due to the Calcifediol. When I was taking Cholecalciferol I could not make it into the normal range on 3000iu a day.

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to Auriculaire

I am now on 7,000IU a day to get my D3 level up.It may be the placebo effect, but it seems to be helping.

Does you Afib start after exertion, anxiety, constipation, bloating.

Is there a FODMAP (irritable bowel) link?

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to saulger

Mostly my afib starts after dinner. But I have had it start with no link to eating late afternoon and have woken up in the morning in afib - though I think it was going into it that woke me up. The episodes last about 12 hours. The last episode was very peculiar. It started on leaning out of the window into cold air!

saulger profile image
saulger in reply to Auriculaire

They say that small meals are better for staving off episodes.

My last, and longest, episode lasted 7 hours. Not fun.

AFib episodes are very odd. I had one where a glass was about to fall to the floor and I made a quick grab, which leads me to think that there is an adrenaline connection.Can you bring on an episode just be focusing on the heart rhythm?

I will keep thinking...All the best, Saul

I have tried every anticoagulant. I have had very severe reactions to Edoxaban and Dabigatran. Apixaban gave me bad headaches and my pulse rate was around100 all of the time. Rivaroxaban I took a long time ago but I remember It badly upset my heart. Warfarin

made me itch from day to night. I shed loads of skin and my husband had to keep vacuuming the skin off the carpet. My clothes were full of skin. I could not stand the constant itching and then scratching until I drew blood. I fully undersand the importance of taking anticoagulants for AF.

My EP is considering me for an occlusion. I am taking Nattokinase as a better than nothing. I don't know how well it works. So I could not recommend it. I know people who have no trouble whatsoever with anticoagulants. Also I note that many people on this site do not have problems. I just wanted you to know that you are not on your own when it comes to having really bad side effects.

Ah thank you so much! That made me feel better..im not alone! You have had a bad time ..Im wondering if like me you react badly to a lot if other drugs? Like you I understand the importance of blood thinners …Im having a last attempt with Apixaban….very best wishes Viv

Have you considered reducing the dose of the Apixaban a little? There was a poster here a couple of months ago who took 7.5mg a day spread into 3 doses rather than the standard 10mg in two doses. His EP was happy with that though most would not be . I react badly to a lot of drugs including the full dose of Apixaban . I would not take nattokinase alone as I had a TIA when doing that . But I have tried combining it with a lower dose of Apixaban.

Have you asked to switch from Eliquis to XeraltoI? I was not aware that thinners could cause symtoms other than perhaps bleeding taking longer to stop. But then again, I'm not a PhD med. , So please consult yours 🙂

Yes I do have problems. I react badly to Lanzaprazole , Omeprazole and Ranitidine. I have acid reflux so this is not good.

I also have a bad reaction to Ciprofloxacin. I have to be very careful with additives. I avidly check the ingredients before taking any drugs. Different brands can have different ingredients. I tried to put up with warfarin but could stand it no longer. I do wish you well. It

is a difficult problem.

One of the worst problems of being floxed is the sensitivity to drugs in general that can result . I would never take any drug that contained fluorine molecules and even buy non fluoride toothpaste.

Yes it makes life difficult when you have to look at everything that could contain fluorides or anything that you are sensitive to. You think you are OK then they change the ingredients. I'm allergic to the diazo dyes E102, E104 and E110. Also benzoic acid and all it's derivatives eg sodium benzoate and methypara hydroxy benzoate. Also E320 and E321 (butylated hydroxy anisole and butylated hydroxy toluene). I get double hemi-plegic migraine with these and can get completely paralysed. Sodium metabisuphite and emulsifiers make me throw up. Best Wishes.

Oh that's very bad. Cipro - the poisoned chalice that never empties.

Yes It's bad. Thank you for the reply. Very Best Wishes.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to cryptogram

Thanks for your contributions!!

One thought I had was ......with natural blood thinners how do you know if your taking too much or not enough.....Plus these tablets we take aren’t blood thinners they are ant coagulants so are these natural things ant coagulants. Or are they like aspirin?

Another thought, your bowels seizing up, I know that very very well! Maybe it’s another issue and not apicaban? Could be a simple other reason that comes with our bodies along the way......I’m just saying this as I thought my tablets were causing my constipation issues and the doc said if you read most side effects for most tablets constipation is always there listed....mine turned out to be diverticular disease......it’s tricky to see what’s what with tablets isn’t it...So I get what you’re saying.

Sue

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Morzine

Thanks! Yes very tricky toKnow! Good luck

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to Morzine

It is often quite difficult to find out whether natural "thinners" are anticoagulant or anti aggregant ie stop platelets clumping together to form clots. Aspirin and clopidogrel belong in the latter category. Nattokinase does have some anticoagulant activity but it's main interest seems to be as a clot buster. Same with lumbrokinase which I think comes from snails. How did your trip to UK go?

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to Auriculaire

Oh it was a quick trip, two thousand miles driving, , six days, was fruitful got stuff needed to be done sorted, lifted case hurt my back! Still suffering! At least heart didn’t play up as I was so stressed and stress is my trigger! Back to deep snow... How are you now?

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to Morzine

We have had a sprinkling that melted quickly. It hasn't snowed seriously here since 2010! I am recovering from my second hip op ok now . Except I can't kneel down . I tried last week - very painful on thigh muscles getting up. I will have to buy a mop on a pole as usually I do floors on my hands and knees! But I can walk fine now and only use one stick when going out - just for confidence really and going up and down steps. All that sitting in the car probably weakened your back. Last two long road trips we made my back went when we got home . I leave suitcases to my husband. Take it easy - no snow shovelling.

hi timeless yes i take nattokinase but asked this question a while back and someone replied that they had taken a stroke whilst on it , but since ep wont put me on anticoagulants i take natto with garlic and fish oil , i feel i need to take something

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to Tomred

Interesting ..thanks

Yes I've had them all warfarin apixaban etc for a/f that was 5 years ago but since then i have took to aspirin 75Mg and garlic tablets.

Must add that my a/f only detectable as an irregular heart beat no problem

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to barneybin

Thanks

I have SVT but no symptoms. Even when my heart rate is over 200 bpm I can't tell. I only knew when I had a stroke as that did produce symptoms. Total paralysis for three days. No pain though but I would not advise it as a cure for pain.

A stroke is worse than a bleed any day of the week. A bleed may kill you if you are unlucky but you won't know anything about it, and the doctors can't do anything about a bleed on the brain from my observations in the stroke unit. (the result of alcohol consumption)

All the best.

Roy

Thanks for contribution!

I take a baby aspirin every day. No stronger medications for me!

Has anyone ever mentioned having a Watchman Procedure? I know it’s not common in the UK but it has been done for those who are unable to take pharmaceuticals because of the affects they cause and wish to lower their risk of stroke.

Royal Brompton offer this procedure - rbht.nhs.uk/news/new-heart-...

It seems much more common in the US.

My view is once over 70 QOL is much more valuable to me than how long I live so I have ceased to take all but ‘essential’ medication and one of those is now under review.

Apixaban is one of my ‘essentials’ but I am lucky in that I have never suffered from noticeable affects from this med but have read a significant number of posts from people who do suffer.

I do think the subject of reducing risk of strokes is vastly under researched, outside of those who can afford to fund research = Pharmaceutical Companies.

Now I wonder what would happen if the 24,000 members of this forum Crowd Funded a research study? Just wondering…….

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to CDreamer

Agree completely. QOL is essential. On 5mg Bisoprolol ( which seems to be standard dose here as twice I have been put on this by hospital cardiologists) I felt like a zombie and told my GP that if I had to live feeling so awful for the rest of my life I was not sure I wanted to live. Since being floxed my default position is scepticism now and would never just accept medication because a doctor advised it. I also think it suspiciously convenient that the CHADS-VASC that puts a lot more people on anticoagulants than previous scoring systems came out just before DOACs came on stream. I remember looking up Lip's conflicts of interest.

Once again I agree with Auriculaire. In my opinion it is wise to make choices based on logic without influence from Big Pharma, and their paid representatives, doctors. So many of our choices are fear-driven, a fear that is instilled in us by our doctors. Others who have been damaged by doctors choose to go another route. By the way, the second leading cause of death in the US is medical mistakes. Some here claim that supplements are unregulated and untested. This is patently untrue. Many companies have documented testing facilities in place that are well regulated. Nattokinase has many studies listed on PubMed which attest to it's efficacy. That, alternated with lumbrokinase, has been used in Japan and other parts of Asia for hundreds of years to regulate blood clotting and viscosity. I tend to trust modalities that have survived the test of time. If you research the lawsuits against drugs like Eliquis, it's quite stunning. So ultimately it is best to weigh all the options, do a lot of research and find a treatment modality that makes your life comfortable, safe, and livable. If Western drugs bring you peace of mind, then go with them. If you are open to other possibilities, then start your research. Good Luck!

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to Kingst

There is far too much Euro and American centricity in our attitude to health care and now most of it has been corrupted by the money of Pharma. Money =influence. Even former editors of the leading medical journals on the planet say the journals can no longer be trusted as what is published is influenced by advertising revenue. Medical practices that are well researched and successful in Japan and China are ignored in the West especially if they involve substances which cannot be patented. Take covid . There was large scale use of iv vit C in China for hospitalised patients. Japan has recently brought it's last wave right down. By using Ivermectin. "Fact checkers" will nay say this and state that the Japanese government did not advise the use of Ivermectin. This is true but the head of the Japanese medical association did and the doctors started using it. It does not matter a hoot if the government did not advise it.

Kingst profile image
Kingst in reply to Auriculaire

What appears to have happened is that much of what we previously suspected about the medical "industry" is true- that the Hippocratic Oath is now defunct and has been so for many decades, that doctors choose financial enrichment over ethical medical treatment, and perhaps worst of all, they are so poorly educated and informed that their advice is highly suspect. It is unconscionable that doctors not only have zero knowledge of viable alternative options to drugs, but they smugly disregard them. This display of ignorance is terrifying when you think that you've handed your life, your health, your future over to them. I see the current awakening that we are going through as a golden opportunity to open yourself to all possible ways to preserve your health. There are many, many options, and it is up to each of us to respect the potential healing in each of them.

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to Kingst

I think that is more true in America than in the socialised medicine systems of Europe . Where I think there is very little difference is in the corruption of KOLs in medical academia. There is a list online of the top "earners" from Pharma here in France where by law doctors have to declare such emoluments. Some of these Professors are getting eye popping sums ' over €100,000 a year ! And it always seems to be them who get on tv telling us what we should be doing. They set the tone for what rank and file practitioners are doing.

There is a website in the USA that shows how much money Drs accept from the drug companies. Some Drs really "rake in the dough" as we say here in the USA. It's really pretty disgusting that many Drs do that. Another example of profit over patient. 😒Hoping you are getting better since your surgery.

Thanks Belinda. I am doing better and can walk normally without the sticks. I just use one when I go out for steps. I still cannot kneel down without a lot of pain when I get back up. This is because my quads on that side were damaged before the op cos the hip was in a very bad state. I am hoping that over the winter I can build up the muscle a bit so I can start gardening again in Spring. I see my surgeon again mid Dec so I am hoping he will say I can start my exercise bike again. Take care.

Sounds like you are taking it slowand easy. Some people want rush getting better. I know you will be fine.

Take care and be safe. 🤗

I think that is a well-balanced answer …I do agree with you re doctors ..

Interesting idea!

I hate taking daily medications unless absolutely necessary. As such I went off Metoprolol daily and now take it as PIP. I have had no more AFIB events than before and for me it works as a PIP. The other drug that I was taking daily was Eliquis. Since I am confident that I recognize when I am in AFIB, I wanted to take that as a PIP too. (FYI, I wear a smart watch 24/7 that lets me know if my heart rate is high, and I have significant symptoms when going into AFIB) Needless to say my doctor is not pleased. Instead what I am doing is taking a daily half dose of Eliquis and bumping it up to a full dose during and for a week or two following an incident. (Not recommended by my doctor)

Right now there is a huge study going on in the US regarding using blood thinners as a PIP. There are over 3000 participants in 100 cities. I am anxious to see how that turns out. I have some bleeding issues when on the drug and also worry about hemorrhagic stroke. The simple fact that researchers are looking at this issue tells me my thinking is not necessarily off-base.

I take 7.5mg Apixaban and bump it up to full dose for a week after an attack. There is no way I'd tell my doctor as he would disapprove so it would just be a source of conflict. Looking forward to seeing what the study says. I have gone into afib in my sleep two or three times ( that I know of) but it wakes me up and my attacks have always lasted for about 12 hours so I am not that worried I am having attacks I don't know about. I would never stop Apixaban altogether but I am not convinced the full dose is necessary for everyone.

Hello Viv. I'm on edoxaban and it's all a very long story. What prompted me to reply was the question on the side effects of these medications. I've managed to do to deal with some of the side effects by 1. Taking them a good 2 hours apart.

2. Drinking a good load of water, say minimum half a pint with the medication

3 I've also been to see an acupuncture doctor, and I found the treatment useful.

4. Going for a walk each day I find the walking helps to burn up some of the negative things in the stomach, and helps put out the odd kink in my limbs. This also helps with the whole self regulation thing.

5. Every other time, I take 2 tablespoons of peptac peppermint liquid, this type is lower in sodium than the traditional gaviscon, to ease the stomach against the drugs

I hope this helps

I take NAC which acts as an anticoagulant. I had to stop Nattokinase because together with NAC it caused some bleeding. So far so good.

Timeless1 profile image
Timeless1 in reply to betsea

Thanks for comments!

Hi timeless 1. Im so glad you mentioned this. I seemed to have recovered from arryhthmia ,well at least for now but i continue to have difficulty in excersising and i have every day from midday feeling sick , nauseas, and weak, and a bit shaky. I asked my doc if i could go off the rivaroxaban blood thinner as its the only drug i take so think it must be side effect. Naturally she said know but swapped me over to pradaxa. I felt a bit better for a couple days but then back to always feeling unwell and useless.

I would like to more of natural blood thinner. Iknow that plenty water is of course.ike you im keen to get my life back. All the best for you.

Thanks for post ..Ive listened to Sanjay Gupta cardiologist on youtube and hes explained that natural stuff can be good for thinning the blood but not for preventing strokes!Hes brilliant so i believe him! It may not be the medi thats making you feel that way …weve nearly allBeen injected with goodness knows what !good luck!

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