I've been trying for many years to decide whether to take a protein powder supplement to help maintain muscle mass. Since I started on ADT in 2016, I've lost 30 pounds. I don't know how much is due to the ADT, and how much is due to my diet. I'm 172 pounds now. I was muscular and athletic at 202, and I'm still that way, but with about 20 pounds less muscle. I want to live as long as possible, so I eat mostly vegetables, healthy fish, nuts and that type of food mostly. It's hard to get enough protein from eating just veggies and nuts. Plus, it's not a good idea to overeat nuts. Thus, the question is whether to take a powder supplement each day, or not.
I've had several bottles of fermented veggie powder, as well as a few bottles of organic cow whey protein but I'm concerned about the IGF-1 and some of the amino acids that are claimed to promote cancer growth. The China study (referred to by Dr. Colin Cambell and Dr. Essylstein showed higher advanced cancer deaths in people who regularly eat cow meat. I have seen several articles saying that eating cow meat grows cancer. Some people say that it's not bad if it is from grass-fed cows who have not been given hormones and anti-biotics, but I have no idea whether the China cows were raised like this or not.
Anyway, I'd like to hear from anyone on this site, who has any good evidence supporting or disparaging the use of whey protein, and, whether goat and sheep whey protein is better than cow whey protein? I know there have been some discussions about this in the past, but there may be some new findings, and any info would be good for new members in this group.
Here is a study that supports casein for slowing cancer growth.
"This study suggests that there is a striking correlation between anti-cancer activity of milk caseins and their physicochemical properties such as alpha helix structure and positive and negative charges. Huang et al showed highly charged COS (chitooligosaccharide) derivatives could significantly reduce cancer cell viability, regardless of the positive or negative charges [19]. The secondary structure (α-helical or β-sheet) of anticancer peptides is related to the high percentage of negative and positive charges. Several studies reported that alpha helical cationic anticancer peptides (ACPs) displayed unique mechanisms of action and several extraordinary properties such as broad-spectrum activity and rapid action and cancer cells couldn’t fight against them [20]. According to our result, milk casein may be a good candidate for in vivo treatment of cancer patients."
A couple concerns I have about this report is that all the cited references are old, with the most recent one being from 2015. I also don't know if it's the peptides, which might have to be isolated in order to be effective, or would it still be effective by taking the standard powder, in Goat, Sheep or Cow form. I'm also concerned because many men have stated that casein and IGF-1 grow accelerate cancer growth, which is consistent with the "China Study" illuminated by Esslystein and Campbell.
FYI - while using darolutamide / Nubeqa, I find that it takes even longer to recover from exercise, which is part of the reason I would like to add protein powder, in order to expedite exercise recovery, but I won't use it if I think it is accelerating the cancer growth. I suppose I could just eat more low mercury wild salmon instead of 2-3 times a week and have potentially less concern over IGF-1.
Here is another study that says Goat/Sheep whey has promise in restricting mTOR, which might slow cancer growth:
Amino acids are significant activators of mTORC1, an important factor that regulates cell growth and the metabolism. However, its overactivation leads to metabolic disorders, several cancer types and aging. Administration of sheep/goat whey protein in rats reduces amino acid levels in plasma and inactivates mTORC1 in the liver, therefore, it appears that it acts protectively. Specifically, the levels of 22 plasma amino acids were examined and 15 of them were reduced significantly in the experimental group compared to the control group. The reduction percentage ranged from 29% to 52%. Among them, the BCAAs (i.e., isoleucine, leucine, valine) whose elevated levels are implicated in IR probably through the upregulation of mTOR complex 1 are included. Furthermore, sheep/goat whey protein in liver reduced the p70-S6K1 (Thr389) expression by 32.5% in the experimental group compared to the control group, thus leading to the putative inhibition of the adverse, disease-related effects induced by mTOR overactivation. The mode of its action appears to mimic the beneficial impact of fasting on health. This is an intriguing piece of evidence indicating that sheep/goat whey protein could potentially be used as an alternative and promising nutritional intervention for the prevention or alleviation of diseases associated with homeostasis and growth disturbance."
Below, is a clip from a report on cow milk and its deleterious effects, including increased cancer growth. Report link: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
"Notably, recent evidence underlines that mTORC1 activates the expression of RNA polymerase III (Pol III), which limits longevity [543]. Increased mTORC1 signaling shortens lifespan and accelerates aging-related processes such as cellular senescence and stem cell exhaustion [544,545,546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555]. Thus, persistent overactivation of mTORC1 by continued cow milk consumption accelerates aging and overall mortality of mTORC1-driven diseases of civilization (Figure 3).
Milk-mediated mTORC1 signaling. Upper panel: physiological milk signaling exclusively only during the postnatal breastfeeding period with milk derived from the biological mother (human lactation genome). Lower panel: cow milk-driven overactivation of mTORC1 begins with maternal cow milk consumption during pregnancy, continues with high protein cow milk-based artificial formula, and continues with milk consumption during all age periods of human life. Persistent milk signaling with overactivated mTORC1 modifies growth trajectories during childhood and adolescence and promotes diseases of civilization."
I drank a lot of skim milk and sugary yogurts as a kid. Maybe the issue is not IGF-1. Could the problem be in the cow milk, and its overconsumption, as an everyday drink and food. Maybe the goat and sheep milk have the opposite effect as the cow milk?
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Whey is not casein. Proven that sarcopenia is bad for prognosis vs. a speculative observational link between casein and progression. And like I said, whey is not casein.
PW, I don't recall saying that whey was casein. Did I say that in my post? I think I mentioned that whey has casein in it. Does whey, not have casein in it? You may be having a busy day, but your reply seems confrontational instead of collegial. We know that sarcopenia is bad for progression but that does not mean that whey is required to prevent sarcopenia. I put a lot of effort into my post. Please read the entire thing and address my points and questions, instead of trying to fire a silver bullet statement that helps nobody. This site is for collaboration, not conflict. Let's keep it friendly my friend.
I did not say that you said whey was casein. You did imply that whey has casein in it. I was stating a fact that some people may or may not know. FYI: pure whey does not have casein in it (other than micro traces).
I apologize for offending you. I won't reply to your posts any longer. I was merely attempting to be helpful but have found this site to be unusual.
you can always reply. I like your content. Sometimes other guys have a lot of knowledge but they don’t share it, and they give very brief descriptions or statements that don’t really help the reader understand what they are trying to say. I’m sorry of i came across rudely. I was on the phone out on hold with American Airlines for nine hours yesterday. I was really pissed and stressed with all that bad customer service.
Here’s some of the key content: Milk proteins consist of approximately 20% whey protein and 80% caseins [63]. Whey protein has been characterized as a high-quality protein with many health benefits probably due to its content in bioactive substances, namely, β-lactoglobulin, α- lactalbumin, bovine serum albumin, lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase enzymes, glycomacropeptides and lactose [25,64,65]. A significant biological action of whey protein is its antioxidant activity as it enhances the concentration of antioxidant defense molecules and protects macromolecules from reactive species induced oxidative damage [19,20,21,23]. In comparison with other protein sources, whey protein contains higher amounts of BCAAs and especially leucine, which are important factors in tissue growth and repair. The number of studies in the literature examining the effects of whey protein on the plasma amino acid profile is limited and they mainly show that whey increases amino acid concentrations in plasma. Indeed, different forms of whey protein led to increased levels of both EAAs and BCAAs in rats [66] and diabetic mice [67]. The novelty of the present study is that whey protein decreased the amino acid profile in plasma. This is of remarkable biological interest as, according to other relevant studies, elevated plasma amino acid levels and particularly BCAAs and aromatic amino acid (AAA) levels have been linked to IR, type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), cardiovascular diseases (CVD) and obesity [39,40,41,68] AAAs (i.e., phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine) and BCAAs are considered biomarkers of metabolic disorders since it has been proposed that they predict T2DM and CVD for up to 12 years before disease onset and that they are correlated with metabolic syndrome (MS) diagnosis within 4 years [29,36,69]. Thus, nutritional intervention strategies based on sheep/goat whey protein appear to be a promising approach for the prevention of relevant disorders. A possible mechanism by which amino acids, and especially BCAAs, are implicated in insulin resistance (IR) might be the upregulation of mTORC1 through the phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) [41].
I think this was a simple result of the inherent lack of tone in emails. I'd like to hear more from both you and GeorgeGlass. RE the topic: so, what's the consensus? I tried to get through the papers you posted and, frankly, there's a reason I went to law school instead of a science/math program. Whey protein supp is OK? Or not? I'm hesitant to do anything with supplements now that I've been diagnosed with PCa G7 pending SBRT in August. But, like some others on here, I love to work out and want to fight not just PCa but old age as well.
they have some available on amazon, one of the goat whey products is by ZNaturals. I'd like to know what they eat. I don't think it says it on their website. I guess I have to also figure out what they normally eat, if they are not held in captivity and force-fed unnatural foods (like most cows are).
I just looked at it. It says grass fed hormone free but I don't know if they are allowed to graze freely, or if they have a stockade locked around their neck when they eat the grass.
I suggest you start eating more and take any protein supplement while you figure out which way/whey etc to go. Nuts are only good in moderation, as you noted.
Unless you’re happy at 172 lbs that is. What’s wrong with that? How much protein are you getting now?
Nuts have more fat than seeds. Some nuts are less fatty than others. Both are great for you. I don't know the specifics of the nutrient value. They vary quite a bit, which is great of course. The only downside of nuts is eating too many of them.
i just want a little more muscle. I lost another 12 pounds after taking orgovyx. The stronger the bones reduces and ligaments, the less chance of injury grin everyday activity. Plus, when those parts of the body are stronger, it’s harder for the cancer to invade them.
What I do. 1, Vegan protein powder (scoop with every meal) (Garden of Life Organic Protein Shake -- walmart.com), 2, Creatine Monohydrate (with dinner) (walmart.com), 3, HMB supplements (with dinner and after exercise) (capsules, from Vitamin Shoppe). Hydrate like crazy, try to get 100+ grams of protein daily from all sources. Mix with lots of exercise and enjoy.
I agree with most although I’m not studied up on hmb and it’s affect on prostate cancer. Here’s something else i pulled from one of the linked studies: Here’s some of the key content: Milk proteins consist of approximately 20% whey protein and 80% caseins [63]. Whey protein has been characterized as a high-quality protein with many health benefits probably due to its content in bioactive substances, namely, β-lactoglobulin, α- lactalbumin, bovine serum albumin, lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase enzymes, glycomacropeptides and lactose [25,64,65]. A significant biological action of whey protein is its antioxidant activity as it enhances the concentration of antioxidant defense molecules and protects macromolecules from reactive species induced oxidative damage [19,20,21,23]. In comparison with other protein sources, whey protein contains higher amounts of BCAAs and especially leucine, which are important factors in tissue growth and repair. The number of studies in the literature examining the effects of whey protein on the plasma amino acid profile is limited and they mainly show that whey increases amino acid concentrations in plasma. Indeed, different forms of whey protein led to increased levels of both EAAs and BCAAs in rats [66] and diabetic mice [67]. The novelty of the present study is that whey protein decreased the amino acid profile in plasma. This is of remarkable biological interest as, according to other relevant studies, elevated plasma amino acid levels and particularly BCAAs and aromatic amino acid (AAA) levels have been linked to IR, type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), cardiovascular diseases (CVD) and obesity [39,40,41,68] AAAs (i.e., phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine) and BCAAs are considered biomarkers of metabolic disorders since it has been proposed that they predict T2DM and CVD for up to 12 years before disease onset and that they are correlated with metabolic syndrome (MS) diagnosis within 4 years [29,36,69]. Thus, nutritional intervention strategies based on sheep/goat whey protein appear to be a promising approach for the prevention of relevant disorders. A possible mechanism by which amino acids, and especially BCAAs, are implicated in insulin resistance (IR) might be the upregulation of mTORC1 through the phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) [41].
Axe the HMB, as there's research to show it increases mTOR. This is actually a selling point marketed by the company that holds the patent (MTI), because mTOR activation is actually great for repairing and building muscle cells too, not just cancer.
Living with advanced PCa is all about trade-offs. Take something and maybe increase odds of cancer liking it, or don't and be guaranteed to lose muscle mass at an atrocious rate.
Exercise in and of itself, when done at a high intensity and frequency, slows down PCa. Thats my "big picture" goal. And HMB helps exercise build muscle _even_ when on ADT.
Thanks OC, it's good to get all this input so that each person can try to decide what is best for them. What I've noticed since I had a 12 pound drop last year, is that my body has settled at 171 pounds and doesn't move much from there regardless of what I do or eat etc. I'd have to intentionally add a lot of extra protein per day in supplement powder for to increase weight. I'd do that if I was having sarcopenia issues but I'm not. I'm still muscle toned, but not like I was before cancer when I was 200 pounds. I would do the extra goat or veggie protein powders, maybe 100 grams a day instead of the 30grams Im doing now but I just dont know if the benefit exceeds the cost. I don't want to over-activate the MTOR. The video, "Forks over Knives" discusses the China study and the effect of dairy and beef on cancer, and discusses how small amounts are ok but frequent or large portions feed the cancer.
I know several men here who have developed their own programs do use Whey Isolate body builder powders for extra protein. The product should be low in sugar/anything that converts to sugar.
I’ve been tracking that for the past six years but want to introduce the idea that sheep and goat my new acting in the opposite way. :Here’s some of the key content: Milk proteins consist of approximately 20% whey protein and 80% caseins [63]. Whey protein has been characterized as a high-quality protein with many health benefits probably due to its content in bioactive substances, namely, β-lactoglobulin, α- lactalbumin, bovine serum albumin, lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase enzymes, glycomacropeptides and lactose [25,64,65]. A significant biological action of whey protein is its antioxidant activity as it enhances the concentration of antioxidant defense molecules and protects macromolecules from reactive species induced oxidative damage [19,20,21,23]. In comparison with other protein sources, whey protein contains higher amounts of BCAAs and especially leucine, which are important factors in tissue growth and repair. The number of studies in the literature examining the effects of whey protein on the plasma amino acid profile is limited and they mainly show that whey increases amino acid concentrations in plasma. Indeed, different forms of whey protein led to increased levels of both EAAs and BCAAs in rats [66] and diabetic mice [67]. The novelty of the present study is that whey protein decreased the amino acid profile in plasma. This is of remarkable biological interest as, according to other relevant studies, elevated plasma amino acid levels and particularly BCAAs and aromatic amino acid (AAA) levels have been linked to IR, type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), cardiovascular diseases (CVD) and obesity [39,40,41,68] AAAs (i.e., phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine) and BCAAs are considered biomarkers of metabolic disorders since it has been proposed that they predict T2DM and CVD for up to 12 years before disease onset and that they are correlated with metabolic syndrome (MS) diagnosis within 4 years [29,36,69]. Thus, nutritional intervention strategies based on sheep/goat whey protein appear to be a promising approach for the prevention of relevant disorders. A possible mechanism by which amino acids, and especially BCAAs, are implicated in insulin resistance (IR) might be the upregulation of mTORC1 through the phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) [41].
Thank you for the additional info, George!! I appreciate it. I see now what you are specifically looking for and I don't have any info comparing across varieties of whey, but if I see anything relevant, I will post it.
You’re welcome sunlight. I appreciate you reading and analyzing my post. I’ve been posting less lately, because i get allot of very brief replies that are either off topic, or from people who don’t read and analyze the posts. Unfortunately, it’s the nature of this site. Most guys are well meaning. Sadly, There is no repository of the most valuable papers or evidence. Thus, we have open ended conversation. Some of it is quality, some is garbage. Your comments are skates welcome. Thanks and Have a day full of sunshine.
Hi George, I read a lot about casein after PCa diagnosis, and have linked studies about it here in the past suggesting a link between casein and PCa growth. One of the articles I posted suggested that the casein in goat milk is less harmful than cow milk because the biochemical structure of goat milk casein has a lesser effect on IGF-1 promotion. So I changed my diet to drink less milk, and what milk I do drink is goat milk.
On the other hand, whey, which comprises about 1/5 of the protein in cow's milk, appears to protective from PCa. From this study: "Whey contains the amino acid cysteine – a key ingredient for making glutathione in the body. Unlike casein, whey proteins are rich in cysteine, an amino acid that increases glutathione in the prostate... cysteine is the amino acid that helps create healthy glutathione levels in the prostate, and glutathione helps keep free radicals under control."
it’s definitely better to limit the protein intake. The unknown, and the problem with these studies is that they never compare things like goat whey protein vs specifically types of veggies protein vs whey protein from a cow vs very low protein of any kind. That’s what we really need to know.
RTFM (ie Read the *** material, as my favorite ME professor said one day when I was in college, you know, back when slide rules were still in common use). The cited article said " we observed that modifications of dietary protein quality, independently of protein quantity, decreased tumor growth. A diet containing 20% plant protein inhibited tumor weight by 37% as compared to a 20% animal dairy protein diet."
As for the whey source question, if cow whey is not good for PCa, what says that goat or sheep or antelope or moose whey might not be even worse?
Given the quote above, if a 20% plant-protein diet helps reduce tumors 37%, would a ~100% vegan/vegetarian diet do more?
i did read all that material, but there still are shot of unknowns. From sone of the studies, it appears that goat whey may go completely in the opposite direction than cow whey, in terms of slowing the cancer growth. Nonetheless, i would want to intake a large % of goat milk. Maybe keep the overall protein low, and add a little goat protein. Of we took in nothing other than eating vegetables, we might live a decent percentage longer but we might have more problems with bone pains from some loss in muscle size and strength.
But the type of protein and the quality of how the animals were fed I’d most important. They are not so the same, and how the human body reacts is not the same either. I was a professor for six years. Getting the cadets to read was not the hard part. It was “reading between the lines”, critical thinking and good quality analysis that were harder to come by.
It looks to me like good quality goat and sheep whey has a restrictive effect on mtor and cancer, whereas whey from cows has the opposite effect.
Here’s some of the key content: Milk proteins consist of approximately 20% whey protein and 80% caseins [63]. Whey protein has been characterized as a high-quality protein with many health benefits probably due to its content in bioactive substances, namely, β-lactoglobulin, α- lactalbumin, bovine serum albumin, lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase enzymes, glycomacropeptides and lactose [25,64,65]. A significant biological action of whey protein is its antioxidant activity as it enhances the concentration of antioxidant defense molecules and protects macromolecules from reactive species induced oxidative damage [19,20,21,23]. In comparison with other protein sources, whey protein contains higher amounts of BCAAs and especially leucine, which are important factors in tissue growth and repair. The number of studies in the literature examining the effects of whey protein on the plasma amino acid profile is limited and they mainly show that whey increases amino acid concentrations in plasma. Indeed, different forms of whey protein led to increased levels of both EAAs and BCAAs in rats [66] and diabetic mice [67]. The novelty of the present study is that whey protein decreased the amino acid profile in plasma. This is of remarkable biological interest as, according to other relevant studies, elevated plasma amino acid levels and particularly BCAAs and aromatic amino acid (AAA) levels have been linked to IR, type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), cardiovascular diseases (CVD) and obesity [39,40,41,68] AAAs (i.e., phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine) and BCAAs are considered biomarkers of metabolic disorders since it has been proposed that they predict T2DM and CVD for up to 12 years before disease onset and that they are correlated with metabolic syndrome (MS) diagnosis within 4 years [29,36,69]. Thus, nutritional intervention strategies based on sheep/goat whey protein appear to be a promising approach for the prevention of relevant disorders. A possible mechanism by which amino acids, and especially BCAAs, are implicated in insulin resistance (IR) might be the upregulation of mTORC1 through the phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) [41].
but i don’t think those studies included goat whey. : more info from my link:Here’s some of the key content: Milk proteins consist of approximately 20% whey protein and 80% caseins [63]. Whey protein has been characterized as a high-quality protein with many health benefits probably due to its content in bioactive substances, namely, β-lactoglobulin, α- lactalbumin, bovine serum albumin, lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase enzymes, glycomacropeptides and lactose [25,64,65]. A significant biological action of whey protein is its antioxidant activity as it enhances the concentration of antioxidant defense molecules and protects macromolecules from reactive species induced oxidative damage [19,20,21,23]. In comparison with other protein sources, whey protein contains higher amounts of BCAAs and especially leucine, which are important factors in tissue growth and repair. The number of studies in the literature examining the effects of whey protein on the plasma amino acid profile is limited and they mainly show that whey increases amino acid concentrations in plasma. Indeed, different forms of whey protein led to increased levels of both EAAs and BCAAs in rats [66] and diabetic mice [67]. The novelty of the present study is that whey protein decreased the amino acid profile in plasma. This is of remarkable biological interest as, according to other relevant studies, elevated plasma amino acid levels and particularly BCAAs and aromatic amino acid (AAA) levels have been linked to IR, type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), cardiovascular diseases (CVD) and obesity [39,40,41,68] AAAs (i.e., phenylalanine, tryptophan, tyrosine) and BCAAs are considered biomarkers of metabolic disorders since it has been proposed that they predict T2DM and CVD for up to 12 years before disease onset and that they are correlated with metabolic syndrome (MS) diagnosis within 4 years [29,36,69]. Thus, nutritional intervention strategies based on sheep/goat whey protein appear to be a promising approach for the prevention of relevant disorders. A possible mechanism by which amino acids, and especially BCAAs, are implicated in insulin resistance (IR) might be the upregulation of mTORC1 through the phosphorylation of insulin receptor substrate 1 (IRS-1) [41].
Yes, George, understand you were looking at whey protein. I was just highlighting that goat milk is a better alternative than cow's milk from the standpoint of casein-- goat milk having A2-beta-casein which is a safer alternative to A1-beta-casein in North American cow's milk as explained in this article.
Thanks Tim, that's what I'm thinking as well. I believe that it matters when you take the protein as well. If you take it before, during or post-workout, the muscles and other parts of the body can utilize the protein effectively. If you just take the protein and then sit all day, eating junk food, then the protein will not just used up, and can accumulate, which could allow the cancer to feed off of the excess protein/hormones.
I ate plain Greek yogurt from a small kid (joke implied) to a large kid (joke completed) that my dear Greek mother cooked everyday from cow's milk. So I guess I got Greek cow yogurt Pca. Should that discovery be added to the Rolling Stone Medical Manual? Geez, sounds Greek to me.....
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