Already discussed with TA. He is not in the details for creatine. So I want to ask, if somebody in this forum could provide some advice. I found this up to date study: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
As I‘m under lupron, my muscle mass is pretty low. I improved by exercising and lot of weight lifting. Still my creatinine level is at 60 nmol/L, my BMI is 19.5. The study says, that creatinine should be between 70-76 for men with prostate cancer.
So I started supplementing 2g/ day of creatine and will check my blood level again beginning of March. By doing so I intend to improve both, my prognosis as well as my muscle mass & strength.
Any experience and/or feedback?
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Nusch
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I've looked into creatine monohydrate supplements recommended dosage and it seems that around 2g/day (NOT mg) is about the minimum - is that what you meant when you said 2mg?
I am still not convinced that I could safely take even only 2g per day of creatine monohydrate.
My MO was against it because creatine could elevate the DHT production of our bodies, although the amount of the produced DHT will be miniscule it is still not welcome when you have a prostate cancer which could feed on DHT.
I know for a long time about the cancer fighting advantages of creatine and I also know that it would be of great help with my osteoporosis. Still I am waiting to an approval from a MO.
If someone could ask this question from his MO it would be great.
My estimated GFR is around 80. Usually between 60 to 90 but 90 not very often. I was told by the young registra that drinking water helps to bring up the glomerular filtration rate. It is calculated from creatinine. I would say creatinine is between 80 to 90. I am not skinny. I have now 88kg. Four years ago I was 82kg.
While using Creatine will certainly help I would use 5mg a day. If muscle building is your goal there are other supplements that you could add to help with that
I made a post about this and/or provided this or a similar link in a reply. Copy all between the lines--or just type UCLA study on creatine and T cells
I might be totally wrong but I think you are too thin. Although 19 bmi is in the normal range, I think you need to go above 20. I wish I can get to 22 myself but can’t no matter how little I do. I used to be 22 before starting adt and since stopped adt, I can’t go back to 22.
Yes, currently I’m working on adding 2-3 kg body weight. But I want to add muscle mass rather than fat. Therefore I supplement with creatine and we’ll see after 1-2 months, if it works out like that.
Many thx for your insights. I follow a slightly different protocol. I’m on a whole food plant based diet with 18:6 time restricted eating. I keep my protein intake at 0.8 - 1g / kg body weight a day. By doing so, my BMI stays low and that’s what I want. I just want to add some muscles and strength and maybe 2-3 kg body weight.
I appreciate your advice! Just want to add, that there are studies with different conclusions regarding BMI. So I go with low BMI, preferably a bit higher than my current one. But 24 isn’t my goal.
thank you for your post Nusch… I quickly went to Jims blood work of february 3rd. his level is 78. He takes no creatine. He has lost all his muscle mass so I don’t get it, he sure doesn’t look beefy to me!
Regarding muscle mass: I lost all my muscles because I didn’t know that I have to do weight training while on lupron. I started lifting dumbbells and doing some gymnastics with body weight July 2021. Very slowly I regained some muscles, even more strength: I started with dumbbells 2kg each, which was really hard at start. Today I work with 4, 5 and 7kg dumbbells. That’s some progress. Maybe that’s also something for your husband.
Nusch: A nit perhaps, but creatinine is sometimes reported in different units. You wrote 60 nmol/L. Ordinarily, n means nano. But I assume you mean micro, perhaps because we can't type Greek mu for micro. My recent creatinine test reports 1.2 mg/dL, which is about 106 micro mol/L.
I think is is very difficult to improve muscle mass while taking anti testosterone meds. I think our goal is to minimize loss. That is why it is so important to start weight lifting early. In general a low creatinine is a good thing indicating good kidney function. In people with prostate cancer they found it can be too low likely a consequence of muscle loss since creatinine comes from muscle. People with severe weakness do not live as long as people with adequate strength in general. I am not an expert but I think creatine which has nothing to do with creatinine increases certain kinds of muscle strength but is not very good at building muscle mass. The message should be keep lifting weights.
Though creatine and creatinine are different, I find that if I go into the hospital after taking creatine and they do a blood test my creatinine will be very high, they will get very excited and refuse to let me leave, I tell them it will wash out in a few hours, and when it does, a few hours later, they let me leave.
i dont think it is the creatinine that is effecting prostate cancer death rates. It is low muscle mass. The creatinine is just a surrogate marker for low muscle mass. Increasing it without increasing muscle mass will not help. You are right that creatine is metabolized to creatinine and would increase serum creatinine for a short period of time depending how hydrated you are.
Agreed. There I exercise daily and a lot. I could rebuild muscle mass. Still not looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger but even my to sons recognized and appreciated. 😉
From the link provided by Nusch"our study showed that there is a U-shaped curve relationship between serum creatinine levels and the level of prostate cancer prognosis. Low or high serum creatinine levels increase the prognostic risk of prostate cancer"
This is followed by "Controlling the serum creatinine level at 70.1 to 76.8 umol/L in patients with prostate cancer may be beneficial for their prognosis" I question the leap to the second statement. Does causation really follow from an observation of a U-shaped curve?
With creatinine at 77, I should not restart creatine supplementation according to the study, but I doubt it's validity. Any contrarian view?
I would start it at 60 because I would like it to be higher and just in case there is something to the J-shaped curve although I doubt this. It is strange with six times worse prostate cancer prognosis for creatinine <70 and >77 than when between those numbers. What could be the mechanism for this? There is a huge number of studies on creatine and if there was a link to cancer it should have come up long ago. In any case, causality is a separate thing.
I will anyway be cautious and probably aim for taking 5 g of creatine only prior to workouts twice a week. Plus continue monitoring my creatinine level.
It appears your post has confused many about the distinction between creatinine and creatine. Creatine is a natural amino acids that is used in skeletal uncle to produce energy for contraction. It is provided in the diet with meats as the richest source. Weight lifters, body builders and some of us supplement it as it helps support muscle volume and myofibril repair growth and repair. It is considered safe in doses up to 5 grams per day.
In contrast, creatinine is waste product from the breakdown of creatine in muscle tissue. The more muscle mass you have the more creatinine is released into the circulation. So those who are diminished in muscle mass due to ADT, debilitation or sarcopenia will have lower levels of creatinine production.
Given adequate, or at least steady rates of creatinine production, then creatinine blood levels reflect kidney function, Glomerular filtration rate (eGFR). This is because creatinine is filtered out of blood into the urine and not reabsorbed. So elevated levels, say above 80 uMol/L or 2mg-dL, indicate impaired kidney function. This is calculated in relation to the blood urea nitrogen level (BUN) reflecting nitrogen balance ( protein status).
So both the low levels (low muscle mass) and high levels (kidney impairment) in this very poor quality study of hospitalized patients in China, indicate underlying presence of comorbid conditions.
Supplementing creatine when on muscle restoring resistance training regimen is fine and n reasonable doses such as 2 -5 Grams. I take a teaspoonful in my whey protein drinks. MB
I don’t see any contradiction. Please note: I started with 2kg and improved from there in baby steps such as 3kg, 4kg, 5kg and now 7kg. You don‘t know which exercises I do, how many reps etc. I can only share that muscle mass improved significantly and still improving.
🤔 If I know one thing for sure, then, that I don’t mix up water and muscle mass. 😂. Regarding 27kg dumbbells I‘m sure you & I are doing different exercises or you are Arnold Schwarzenegger. Anyhow, all the best!
Don’t worry, I’m already building muscles. 😉 And I‘m eating three times a day: noon, 3pm, 6pm. I already distribute my protein over the three meals and I have a very special first meal every day, too. But still thx for your hints!
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