This is a photo of me after 9 months on ADT, age 70. I’ve always tried to stay in good shape. Jack LaLane inspired me as a kid in the early 1960’s. Later inspired by Larry Scott, Arnold, Lou and others. I built muscle naturally, no steroids.
As my testosterone naturally decreased in my late 50’s I started gradually shedding muscle mass. Still worked out, ran, biked and I was okay with this natural decline.
In 2022 when I was diagnosed with mPCa and informed there was no cure, it was devastating. Then add in the side effects of ADT: lose muscle mass, gain weight and decreased energy level.
In Oct 2022 I enrolled in a VA study on the effects of prostate cancer treatments on muscle cells. There were many aspects of muscle studied. I was determined not to have further decline of lean mass from the beginning scan to my last scan in the study.
I increased my weight lifting from 3 days a week to 7. Added in more swimming days and increased my spin sessions. I also moved to a low carb diet no with no added salt, cured meat or red meats. Big salads every day now.
After six months from the start of the study my body fat went down 26% and lean mass went up 6%. I don’t know how others in the study did but should know after all results are in and compiled.
My PSA is now below 0.1 my energy level is up and I continue to make incremental gains in my workouts and in endurance. There is a theory that if the body has zero or near zero T, it will figure out an alternate way to build muscle.
I encourage those who have the desire and energy level but low T knocked out by ADT, not give up trying to stay fit.
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Good informative video that describes a theory of how muscle cells release hormones that help regulate whole body inflammation. Also talks about the theory on how the body may adapt to low T and continue to build muscle.
Thank you for posting this. I exercise regularly but get nowhere near the results you have ( obviously I'm not doing enough 🤔), well done. Its very helpful when you go into detail about your diet and exercise regimen. Best Wishes
Thank you PSAed. I’m fortunate that I built a home gym in the basement with everything I need except the swimming pool. I have a decent spin bike and use the Peloton app every day. The instructors are very motivational. You can choose your type of music, the instructor and the length of workout. Connected my phone to our old plasma tv, then connected an old stereo to amplify the sound. It’s a game changer for working out!
You look great and I'm envious. I have a home gym and use it at least 3 to 4 days a week but would struggle to do 7! I agree about the motivational effect of listening to loudish music. I hook my iPad into my old Hifi and am working through all the post-Beatles solo albums. It almost makes me look forward to the next workout! 😊
Sounds like you have a great setup for working out Benkaymel! I remember when the Beatles started out and how exciting it was watching them live on the Ed Sullivan show. I love the later solo Paul McCartney and George Harrison albums.
I too look forward to heading down to the gym after my morning coffee! It was hard at first to head out the door at 5:30 in the morning on swim days 3 times a week, but now I look forward to that too. I’m a lousy swimmer but the cardio is the best and it has really built up my shoulders: delts and lats. It works best for me if I knock out the routines first thing in the morning. I think of swimming as both cardio and resistance training since you are using the water as resistance.
Just looked at your Bio and see that you're 70 which makes your physique even more impressive!
I was just a little too young when the Beatles started out but remember my parents taking me to see A Hard Day's Night at the cinema. I really got into them though around 1970 just as they were breaking up and they influenced me to start playing guitar 🎸
I agree, 100%. I do three days a week. Wish I had the perseverance to do seven. But I work hard those three days and I’ve been able to gain a little muscle mass and lose a little fat. And I feel great despite being on ADT. IT CAN BE DONE GENTLEMEN.
Carlosbach you have done amazingly well! Losing 60 lbs! Wow!
Did switching from Lupron to Firmagon help any with the fatigue? I’m on Lupron @ 3 months and haven’t experienced fatigue.
I don’t experience hot flashes but I do need the fan on at night since I get warmer at night without it. I sleep with only a sheet on. I don’t know if it makes any difference but I drink a lot of NUUN electrolyte mix everyday. The ADT messes up your electrolyte balance from my understanding which can lead to hot flashes. My wife went through severe hot flashes some years ago and I was dreading going through that.
My switch to Firmagon was motivated by the mental SE's I started experiencing after 2 years on Lupron/Eligard. I felt like I was losing control over my mind and my thoughts. Impulse control and emotional regulation were consistent battles. I mainly experienced fatigue during the first year, but when (thanks to this group) I added in resistance training the fatigue lessened tremendously.
I'm in my second month of the Firmagon and my mental SE's have pretty much abated. My hot flashes and other SE's are much milder. Other than the increased frequency of implants (Firmagon ever 28 days vs. Lupron every 4 months), and the painful injection site that lasts for about 5 days, the Firmagon has been a big improvement.
I'll try the NUUN as I have experienced drops in my electrolytes. Thanks for the tip.
Carlosbach - I am so happy to read your comments on Eligard versus Firmagon!
A little over a year ago I was put on emergency Firmagon - because it is fast acting. MPC masses pressing on spinal cord. Triplet therapy and a huge success over the past year.
But then earlier in the spring my MO suggested going on Eligard - mainly for the 90-day convenience. I did a lot of research and as a layperson learned about the difference between Eligard (GnRH agonist) versus Firmagon/Degarelix (GnRH antagonist). I stayed on Firmagon in major part because it's apparently better for CVD risk. Also I wasn't looking forward to a major change to a regime that was working.
Sounds like you made the right choice for you. Congrats.
There's no doubt the lueprolide products are better for scheduling your life, but when they pretty much wreck your life (if I was my wife, I wouldn't have wanted to live with me the first half of this year), ease of scheduling is no longer a factor.
Honestly my energy level was diminished about 4 years prior to being diagnosed with mPCa. The MO said that the Avodart I was on for BPH May have masked a high PSA level. It started with feeling miserable in the middle of the night, In the 2 months prior to starting ADT I was feeling miserable around the clock. My immune system was really struggling. So I likely had PC 4 years prior to being diagnosed.
I immediately began feeling better after starting ADT. My energy level now is very high and so recovery time is short. I work a full day after workouts. It’s rare that my muscles are sore. But I like that feeling when they do feel a little sore since this tells me I worked them hard.
I over did it early on during the spike in T after starting ADT. That spike lasted about 3 weeks when I felt like Superman. Inflamed my Achilles’ tendon and had to lay off the elliptical and bike for 2 weeks. I’m very conscious now of over doing it and listen to my body. I have 3 basic routines that I rotate for different muscle groups. That allows 2 days recovery for each muscle group.
Read you bio Scout4answers. You have been through quite a lot on your journey! I am just at the beginning of mine. Sounds like you are doing extremely well right now!
I certainly do not lift as heavy as I did in years past. I do a lot more reps per set now with lighter weight, mainly dumbbells. Also incorporate resistance bands into my workouts. Every spin session I use some 10 lb weights for a couple sets while spinning. That turns into a pretty good workout on its own especially after lifting weights.
After some encouragement from Mateo Beach , another member of this forum, I have embarked on a new exercise protocol it is pretty simple and not very time consuming. I now do one set with only a few reps of each exercise but I do it with a heavy enough weight that I reach muscle failure in less than 2 minutes preferably under 90 seconds at a very slow pace. 10 seconds up and ten seconds down. I do the routine once every week. The book that teaches this program is called Body by Science. It is filled with the science behind why this is so effective.
I won’t elaborate on the reasons or try to defend its premises here. Others have had success and I hope to achieve it as well .
I’ve heard about this this technique. From what you describe it sounds like a cross between isometric training (stationary) and weight lifting (movements). I will definitely check the book out!
That's great, I use that method too although I know it as the Super Slow Protocol started in the 90s by Ken Hutchings. This style of resistance training is perfect for mPCa! The slower movement forces you to use lighter weight, and reps are more careful and controlled - great for anyone with bone mets. The workouts are still intense, but being short and less frequent (I do them 30mins twice a week) they're easier to recover from while on ADT.
The New High Intensity Training by Dr Ellington Darden lays out a very similar program to what I'm doing, for only 25 bucks or so. The main difference is that Dr. Darden's book recommends full-body workouts twice a week. I've been doing this for a while so I find I recover better now doing the lower body one workout, and upper body the second workout.
The 4-Hour Body by Tim Ferriss has a chapter on this style of training, but it's very barebones (both the chapter AND the workout he recommends).
Thanks to all the info on the “Body by Science” and the “Super Slow method”, I incorporated this technique during the portion of my recent workouts when I use resistance bands. It definitely makes using resistance bands much more effective! Will continue using it. Who said you can’t teach an old gym rat new tricks??
my husband works out 7 days a week. We have been working out regularly for many years, but after his diagnosis last year we went on a diet and he works out every day. He lost 35 lbs and looks great! He just started RT last week and ADT 2 months ago. Has not stopped him one bit! I’m so proud of him! You look amazing, great inspiration.
it’s great to hear how others like your husband have been able to kickstart or ramp up a new workout/diet regimen with amazing results! It would be good to hear how he handles the RT and if he is able to keep up the current pace of workouts. I haven’t had RT or CT at this point. Hoping his high fitness level will prove very beneficial in reducing SE’s of the RT. Please keep us posted!
Great thread! I was diagnosed in Jan. 2019 Stage3, gleason9, PSA 24. I had Surgery in May2019 and PSA never went undetectable. Started Lupron about 2 months later, still not undetectable, but low around 0.07. About 14 months later had 35 sessions of radiation and still on Lupron+Xtandi and have been undetectable <0.02 for the last year. I cut way back on Xtandi, maybe 2 pills a week and still <0.02. My next appt. is July 20th, I think I mat take a vac. from Lupron after being on it fo 2 years.
I joined the YMCA in my town here in Covington, Ga. a year and half ago. I'm 5'10" and when stated at the W my weight was 227 and going up due to Lupron. I am now a steady 185-188 and pretty much eat what I want, in moderation of course. What has worked for me is doing the organized classes, 5 to 7 times a week 45 minutes per class. Its hard work but they make it fun! Spin, Body pump, HIIT are a few that we do. around 7 to 20 people in a class at a time so you really stay motivated.. After 1.5 years of this I feel great and have also ran a few 5K races. All this while on ADT. It is amazing what regular exercise does to counter act side effects of ADT. A quick Hot flash every now and then, that's it. What is great about this quality of like is great and they make working out fun and you want to keep coming back.
I agree David that group fitness classes can be motivational and exciting. My wife does the same classes you do at our Y. Years ago I worked out at a gym near my work, I did the spin and kick boxing classes there. The instructors had high energy and were really motivating, great music. I miss those classes. Tried the Y and a couple other places but couldn’t find a high energy instructor. Now I have a number of them to choose from on the Peloton app.
Looking fantástic. We share the same goals, are driven by the same determination to keep our body strong and I am inspired to try to keep up wth you. There is no room for self pitying couch potatos (and Ive seen a few on this chat site) in this battle. You want to live longer? Get up and move 😊.
And "There is a theory that if the body has zero or near zero T, it will figure out an alternate way to build muscle."
Fantastic to see this comment - I was wondering about this myself. Hey, if PC can figure out different ways of doing its thing, maybe other body functions can be reprogrammed too.
Do you have any references about alternative ways to build muscle other than testosterone, may I ask?
Also did the VA publish any papers yet on ADT and muscle cells?
[OK I see now that you posted the video that answers both of these questions 😃]
And on the question of weightlifting - I am doing this very carefully. I have three majorly compromised vertebrae. And the advice I have received is "don't twist". Even as the lesions have receded somewhat apparently any compromise bone never is repaired at the same level of strength.
I'm assuming you don't have any bone mets and fracture risk? I've been walking/running 5K per day 5 days a week - but with three and five pound hand weights. On the theory that the little micro shocks will be signals for my entire frame to strengthen.
So far so good. PSA=zero for 8 months now. On ADT (Firmagon) + Abiraterone + did Docetaxel chemo 6 sessions.
JHMX I do have bone mets in pelvic bone and one on spine. I currently have no limitations on exercise. I feel for you having to deal with compromised vertebrae. How does one “not twist”? It seems all our daily movements involve twisting to a degree. I try to put myself in your shoes and would maybe wear a back brace while exercising? Have you received a second opinion regarding physical limitations?
I imagine a structural engineer telling us the bridge supports are compromised but can’t say exactly how much weight will cause it to collapse. It may be that the Docs don’t know exactly what the limits should be for a compromised vertebrae.
Sounds like you are doing fantastic running/walking 5k with light weights! Those weights seem to get heavier toward the end of that run/walk!
I sincerely hope that your vertebrae are healing and building back up! I posted this link on how bone needs exercise to strengthen.
To all you guys who work out....... You must work out every other day..... this will give your muscles time to build up and not tear down. This advice is not like the other muscle we liked to use every day/night.
Very impressive! I am doing a 5 k run 5 x a week and try to do resistance training 3 times a week but sometimes it drops to 2 so need to step it up. Currently off ADT but looking to build a bit of muscle and enhance bone strength before I go back on
What I learned: Don’t rely on the scale when working on building muscle! Muscle weighs more than fat by volume. After the large changes in body composition at the end of the VA study (lost 26% body fat & gained 6% lean mass), my body weight only went down 2 lbs.
The DEXA body scan shows accurate body composition of fat and muscle. But without the scan I could tell a difference visually and the fact that I had to put another notch in my belt! Working on a second notch now. During the VA study I kept checking my weight and didn’t think I was making any huge change based on that info alone.
Great post! I started ADT about 5 months ago. Was worried that I couldn't gain muscle and have bone issues but this site really helped give me confidence. Before I started ADT I ramped up my resistance training which had always taken a back seat to cardio. I train mostly for strength (few reps, heavy, compound exercises) and have definitely gained strength through ADT. Wish I had done this years ago as I always used to get sore glutes/hamstrings/calves after running and then sitting, now not so much.
There is nothing like the rude awakening of being told you have mPCa and will likely lose muscle mass fast! Great to hear you ramped up the weight training! It will make a big difference.
This is a great thread and very inspiring. Gym-rat, what is your 7 day weight training routine? I’ve got a home gym and access to a 24 hour fitness. I bounce around from various programs. I’d recommend Dan John’s podcast and articles on Easy Strength for a beginner or experienced lifter.
Sunday: crunches, biceps/triceps, bike ride 120 minutes.
I only use dumbbells and resistance bands for resistance training. My wife & I try to walk for 45 minutes each evening . Sometimes work & travel interfere with the daily schedule but I just pick it back up the following day. Just spent 10 days in Europe. Our hotel had a small gym & we went to the local swim center nearly every day. I didn’t lose any muscle mass and maintained my weight after the vacation
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Surprising tE2 (transdermal estradiol) results...fifth update
Pretty quick failure of ADT + Zytiga... next?
Life continues even on ADT.
Is Pluvicto worth pursuing?
High testosterone = very bad ADT side effects?
