I have just been reading the USA Medline paper on B12. For all those who do or are thinking about vitamin B12 supplementation, it is well worth a visit here:
One specific point that it makes, something I had failed to realise, is this:
Vitamin C
Early research suggests that vitamin C supplements can destroy dietary vitamin B12. It isn't known whether this interaction is important, but to stay on the safe side, take vitamin C supplements at least 2 hours after meals.
Makes me seriously question multi-vitamins that contain both.
Also worthy of note:
For vitamin B12 deficiency or pernicious anemia: cyanocobalamin doses of 300-10,000 mcg (microgram) daily have been used. However, some evidence suggests that the most effective oral dose is between 647-1032 mcg/day.
So the typical dose suggested here of 1000 mcg seems in line - for as long as you are deficient. But maybe a less frequent intake when you switch over to maintenance dosing.
Rod
29/04/2018 17:57 The link in this post no longer works. Please research before accepting the interaction between vitamin C and vitamin B12.
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Going by the above info, the vit C will destroy some or all of the B12. Or is there a reason why taking a B12 supplement would be significantly different to dietary B12 (which I assume to mean directly from food)?
Effect of various halide salts on the incompatibility of cyanocobalamin and ascorbic acid in aqueous solution.
Ichikawa M, Ide N, Shiraishi S, Ono K.
Source
Healthcare Research Institute, Wakunaga Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., 1624 Shimokotachi, Koda-cho, Akitakata, Hiroshima 739-1195, Japan. ichikawa_m@wakunaga.co.jp
Abstract
Combination of cyanocobalamin (VB12) and ascorbic acid (VC) has been widely seen in pharmaceutical products and dietary supplements. However, VB12 has been reported that its behavior in stability in aqueous solution is quite different when VC is mixed. In the present study, we examined the stabilities of these vitamins in acetate buffer (pH 4.8) using high performance liquid chromatography. Degradation of VB12 was not observed in the absence of VC in the buffer. However, when VC was mixed in the VB12 solution, VB12 concentrations decreased in accordance with VC degradation. VB12 and VC degradations were inhibited by adding sodium halides to acetate buffer at pH 4.8. These stabilization effects were also observed in the range from pH 3.5 to 5.3 and by adding potassium, magnesium, and calcium halides. Furthermore, our data demonstrated that increases in the halide anion concentrations and atomic number (Cl-<Br-<I-) were proportionally associated with better stabilities of both VB12 and VC. Therefore, choosing an appropriate condition with a certain halide salt may be useful for stabilizing pharmaceutical products and dietary supplements when VB12 and VC are combined in solution.
hmmm - I'm a bit lost here (nothing new there) will read it again 'cos I'm sure you have good info.
So don't take B12 with Vit C - why do they make nice cherry or orange flavour then & multivits? no wonder it doesn't make you feel any better even if you try to do the right thing
There you are, you got it! They are made for companies' bottom lines not for your well-being.
By the same token most of them seem to contain cyanocobalamin whereas I have convinced myself that I would rather take methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin.
And the quantities they contain are appropriate for people who have no absorption issues - who very often have enough in the first place. But nowhere near enough for those who have defective absorption and rely on diffusion rather than intrinsic factor.
I'd be very interested in any information about the interaction between methylcobalamin and ascorbic acid - I currently take Pomology Multivitamins (I get them from Vitacost - they ship to the uk) as they have good levels of the vitamins and it uses methylcobalamin rather than cyano-, but it does have vitamin C...
As someone who takes methylcobalamin myself, I think I am going to assume that it is equivalent to cyanocobalamin (and other analogues) in regard to interacting with vitamin C.
But that is easy for me as I already do take my B12 entirely separately to anything else. So all I have to do is add a tiny bit of extra awareness, sometimes add a few minutes delay, and that's me sorted. Not so easy for you.
If I were you, I think I would be in touch with Pomology to ask them.
On the one hand, I can't see why it would impact sublingual. On the other hand I have never seen what I would be happy to accept as proof that sublingual is anything but very slow swallowing. But because it is so slow, I would expect the vitamin C to have moved on by the time all the B12 has been swallowed.
Similarly I would expect injected B12 to be unaffected. Though maybe even that would be (marginally) impacted if someone is taking huge doses of vitamin C?
thats why as a professional practitioner I refuse to take ascorbic acid. if you want vit c and b12 together use a proper vit c preferably made from cherries with all the associated bioflavinoids etc. its the acidity of ascorbic acid that does the damage not only to B12 but to your body. the acid within ascorbic acid destroys the intrinsic factor your gut produces to be able to process B12, without it, B12 goes stright through or is destroyed. as people with under active thyroids, we are alrady at risk of hyperacidosis, why increase that by taking ascorbic acid? ascorbic acid also ir excreted by the body within 20 mins of ingestion, 200mg of cherry c can still be there in 6-14 hours. virtually all ''scientific'' studies use ascorbic acid cos its cheap and plentiful, most natural practitioners wont touch the stuff!
if in desperaste need of B12 too, and if as many people with under active thyroids have dodgy digestive systems, try sub lingual B12. the powder goes under your tongue and is absorbed via the musoc lining and should not be swallowed as mentioned in the above post, (it is the same process as the anti angina sprays etc.)and bypasses the gut so no need for intrinsic factor in the gut
Just wondering how come the intrinsic factor ever survives its release into the stomach which, I am sure we agree, is quite an acidic environment?
I have tried very hard to find any evidence that B12 can be absorbed sub-lingually and have not found anything I would be happy with. Most of what I have found is assertion with no backup. I found plenty of papers on PubMed which claimed no difference whether swallowed or not. And my interpretation is that least most of the B12 will slowly trickle down to the stomach.
B12 is a fair sized molecule (molar mass around 1355) whereas glyceryl trinitrate is very much smaller at around 227. In general small molecules are able to pass through skin or mucous membrane much more easily that larger molecules. So I really don't see how the fact that anti-angina sprays do pass through the membranes says any very useful about whether or not B12 can do so.
Finally, many people here would find cherry vitamin C far too expensive to contemplate. The first one I found claimed 200 mg per capsule and cost £ 6-95 for 30. So about 23 p per capsule.
thankyou so much for your advice - I have now ordered the cherry c & b12 you write of - when is the best time to take them & is best to not take them together?
me again - can you tell me please, which is a good vitamin company - i have been buying holland & barrett products but i have a feeling they are not that good.
intrinsic factor is made in the gut, it doesnt get released so not sure what you are on about there????? I said ascorbic acid destroys intrinsic factor, not hydrochloric acid in the stomach, and anyway, intrinsic factor is made lower dowen in the alkali part and this is where the ascorbic acid gets to work on it.
maybe cost is a factor but considering 200mg of cherry c is all you need per day but it is several thousand mg of ascorbic acid, it doesnt work out much dearer and the benefits to your health are far more important as ascorbic for us raises acid levels in the body bringing its own health problems. I read widely, not just medical texts/research so called scientific data/tests etc are conducted or paid for by people/companies with a vested interest in finding a certain result, you shouldnt take these to heart. there may be no scientific evidence about sub lingual as you say but thats because no pharmaceutical has an interest in it cos it cant be patented, but sub lingual does work, just ask people who take it
Mmm, I think I am being blinded by 'Science' here, so I am going to ask Dr Peatfield.
Cyanocobalamin is the most commonly supplemented form of vitamin B12, but you might be surprised to discover that this form of vitamin B12 does not actually occur in plants or animal tissues. In other words, outside of the chemically synthesized cyanocobalamin that you encounter as B12 in most vitamin supplements, you would be extremely hard pressed to find this compound in nature (in fact you would not be able to find it). As the name implies, cyanocobalamin contains a cyanide molecule.
Cyanocobalamin does not contain a cyanide molecule as such. It does contain a carbon atom bonded to a nitrogen atom as part of the total cyanocobalamin structure. And so that C=N- functional group is indeed present.
However, the term cyanide seems often to be reserved to inorganic compounds containing a CN ion.
Hydroxocobalamin can be used in cases of cyanide poisoning as it binds to the cyanide ions to form cyanocobalamin which can be safely transported round the body and excreted by the kidneys.
I prefer to take methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin. But I am certainly not going to lead a stampede to demonise cyanocobalamin - although arguably less than optimal, it has saved many lives.
Many, many foods contain cyanide - various processes of leaching cyanide from vegetable matter are used around the world. There was a Ray Mears program from Australia which showed some shavings of a root being left in a string bag in a stream to remove the cyanide. But even after processing it is common for some cyanide to be present - though in sufficiently low doses not to be a major issue.
Rod
cherry C - very interesting - believe it is also said to be of immense use in treating gout? Believe said to be good for arthritic conditions as well?
Where would you get this cherry c ? so do you still need b12 omg I am having a thyroid moment and don't understand now what I'm to take !!!! and are you saying not to have orange in any form !!!
The page says is that if you take vitamin C, do so at least two hours after meals. Otherwise it might inhibit absorption of the vitamin B12 from your diet.
I have pernicious anaemia and have three monthly injections. As far as I am aware if you have PA you need B12 by injections. Your intrinsic factor in the stomach prevents the uptake of B12 orally.
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