hoping to find out, if it will eventually right itself when thyroid issues are treated optimally. I think/hope it might but would be good if others have any experience references that could back up my intuition. I was px venlafaxine early 2019, had never had any blood glucose issues before that. Lipids 4.7. If anything often felt hypo(sugar/low BP). Late 2019 noted in med records Impaired glucose regulation, never mentioned at the time but a noted side effect of venlafaxine. Of course being hypo and inadequately treated doesn't help. Late 2020 HbA1c 49, late 2021 still 49 but lipids now 5.5. So January 23 lipids now 5.6, HbA1c 50, started T3 9 months ago. T3 pre Lio was 3.1. After 8 weeks on T3 my HbA1c went up to 54 but lipids went down to 4.49, T3 now 5.51. Later HbA1c still 54, T3 went down to 4.55 lipids upto 5.14.
November GP reduced T4 this was only change , based on TSH 0.01 T4 21.6 no T3, HbA1c 54, lipids 5.14.
GP results 5th Feb TSH 0.01 T4 17. no other tests.
BH 5th Feb TSH 0.01, T4 17.2, T3 6.1, HbA1c 60, lipids 4.73.
So reducing my T4 px which caused my FT4 to drop from 21.6 in November to FT 4 17. 2 in Feb, and increased my HbA1c from 54 in November to 60 in Feb, lipids 4.73.
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Polo22
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Hello, yes it’s a known issue if you take large doses of T3 that blood sugar control worsens. I couldn’t see from your post how much you have been taking. If you Google you will find medical research papers about this.
Being hypothyroid predisposes you to diabetes anyway which looks as if that’s what happening to you. Are you treating your high blood sugar results? I think you’re in the diabetic range.
I stopped taking only T3 as my blood sugar readings were increasing steadily & now take T4 &T3. I’ve been eating low carb for months but unfortunately blood sugar is still increasing. Apparently low carb can increase insulin resistance. Trying to work out the next step. Genetics play a large part in this, is there diabetes in your family? Both my parents were diabetic T2 in old age.
Apparently low carb can increase insulin resistance.
I've never heard that before. When you reduced your carb intake what did you substitute the missing calories with? And what kinds of carbs do you still eat?
It was a shock to me when I posted that my HbA1c had jumped up 5 points after following a low carb diet & somebody (I need to go back & check who!) replied that the diet can cause insulin resistance.
I’ve tested again after another month & it’s risen by another point. 46 now, 38 last year. I’m eating this way as being advised by Dr Sarah Myhill but I think I need to rethink. She insists on a Paleo Keto diet for everyone & I struggle to get into Keto so say I’m eating low carb. She says she has to eat less than 19 grams of carb to stay in Keto. It’s really difficult to count carbs if you don’t eat packaged, ready made foods much but I’m definitely eating v low levels. Example of daily consumption
Breakfast
2 cups of Red bush tea with cashew milk, 2 high meat content pork sausages, 2 egg omelette, piece of linseed & almond flour bread with butter, 2 desert spoonfuls Greek yoghurt, approx 20 blueberries.
Roast pork . Broccoli & cup of fried celeriac. Trip CBD drink ( 5 grams carb)
Supper
Avocado & prawns. Green leaf salad
14 hours between supper & next day breakfast so that should help sugar control.
I’m taking 100 T4 & 10 T3
From doing some reading it appears that the body can change protein ( which I’m eating a lot) into sugar to maintain brain activity etc. Maybe this is happening to me.
Very interesting to me is that my very over range ferritin (over 400) in January has fallen to mid 200s in February so I’ve got less inflammation but I’m heading for diabetes! Can’t seem to win.
If you google low carb diet effects there do seem to be 2 opinions with the most recent research showing that insulin resistance can increase.
it appears that the body can change protein ( which I’m eating a lot) into sugar
I have read that too. Fung advises eating "moderate protein" because it can be metabolised into glucose but I don't know (yet) how he defines that.
...
I have read on this forum that some carbs are necessary for the conversion of T4 into T3. But again, I don't know how much carbs we're talking about. It seems to me that people with thyroid disease are "special cases" when it comes to what constitutes a good diet. If lots of weight gain is caused by mucin then what are we meant to do?
I believe fat is the only one of the three main food groups that doesnt impact on blood sugar and glucose levels. Excess protein can turn into bodyfat just as excess or processed carbs do.
Protein is harder for the body to digest and I remember reading that around 30% of the calories from high protein foods arent absorbed as calories as they are utilised as energy needed by the body to digest protein.
So if you eat 100 calories of protein, the body will only have access to 70 calories as the other 30 are lost in the digestive process . A crude analogy but that's basically how it works.
Blimey I'm a strict vegetarian so I'd starve if we ever had a Paleo Keto apocalypse, still I guess I could be converted into food a la Soylent Green and help someone keep to their daily macros 🤣
Not diabetic myself, but I’ve read Michael Mosley sorted his blood sugar by diet changes. If you haven’t already, might be worth a look. Don’t think he has thyroid problems though which simplifies things for him.
My HbA1c usually sits around 39/40. The lowest it has ever been is 37, the highest it has been is 43, but was 38 when last measured in Feb 2023. I have been diagnosed with pre-diabetes (which happened when an HbA1c test gave a result of 42).
I take T3 (18.75mcg per day) and T4 (4 x 100mcg per day and the other three days a week 3 x 50mcg per day), and I do think thyroid hormones raise my HbA1c, and possibly make me fatter.
The only things I do at the moment, diet-wise (and I'm not suggesting my diet is good or that anyone should copy it), is
a) I'm completely teetotal.
b) I keep fruit juice to a minimum, and rarely eat fruit (because fruit contains lots of fructose). I do supplement vitamin C occasionally.
c) Try (and often fail) to keep puddings and sweets/chocolate to a minimum.
d) I make sure to eat some protein every day. I'm not vegetarian or vegan, and usually eat at least some animal-sourced protein every day.
e) I only eat and cook with fats and oils that someone in the world would have recognised 200 years ago. I don't eat or cook with any fats or oils that need a lab to create.
So we still don’t have anything definitive here. Perhaps Dr. Peter Taylor would like to take on this piece of research. How do you feel? Any signs and symptoms of T2D? I know it’s a bit like being hypo, signs and symptoms could be ‘absent’ for many years etc. However it could also mean (esp if temporary) that it’s just part of the process. I am not optimal in my thyroid treatment, don’t have any actual signs or symptoms of T2D but my cardiologist is insisting now that I am treated. Are you at least feeling optimal in your thyroid treatment? I just feel this is so important before we start messing around with the umpteen things doctors home in on. Anything that is but effective thyroid treatment, which I believe is critical. Apart from thyroid meds, my inability to get about because of myopathy/myalgia has contributed to the rise in HbA1c levels, in my view. That then that brings me back to ineffective thyroid meds. It’s a blooming circle.
It’s very hard to know how to keep everything in balance. I’ve changed my thyroid meds & feel ok. My recent Medichecks showed both readings in the top third of ranges. It’s likely that I’m retaining more liquid than when on T3 only as my fingers are a bit swollen around my rings but my heart rate is more stable now. I used to get palpitations when my T3 dose was running out.
It’s no use asking the doctors either though & since I had one blood sugar test at the GPs I’m flagged up now as at risk of diabetes. The problem is they’ll probably suggest eating fewer carbs, exercise etc & I’m already doing all that & it’s made blood sugar readings worse!
I’m very tempted to eat cake & take Metformin. My parents were happy on it. I’d need to keep boosting my B12 though. I think I’m losing the battle. It’s definitely a vicious circle.
As I was having an upsurge of my heart problems and I could see the writing on the wall re: my GP and the eminent endo for my area. No help there! I asked for a referral to cardiology. I won’t go into the whole story here. One day I will write it up. Anyway with the quote “It’s a long time since I left my endocrinology education behind” ringing in my ears from the cardiologist - since eons and oodles of research has already been done on heart issues and thyroid; I was to say the least taken aback. No way was this going to be part of the consideration of my ‘case’. However (no matter the alleged so-called cost of T3) I was given a list of medication I was going to have to take to deal with my ‘full house’ of thyroid co-morbidities. The drug bill alone will be steep (and continuous), never mind the cost of investigations and the ‘expected’ surgical interventions! My sense is that the ‘Hap’worth of tar (being decent endocrinology input) could save the NHS a blooming fortune, never mind my pain, stress, discomfort etc etc. There is money being spent like water in some areas of the NHS. I might need it and yet ….. I still think a decent shot at quality treatment for hypothyroidism would be the better route to at least be tried initially, if they could even comprehend the possibilities, which they clearly can’t. Thyroid treatment is certainly not high on the agenda within the NHS. It’s not taken nearly seriously enough. It’s utter madness I think.
So far an increase of 6.25 mcg of levo seems to have helped.
Absolutely agree. There’s vast amount of blinkered thinking & therefore waste of resources. I previously wrote this week about my discovery that each health authority has a formulary & each authority takes time & resources drawing it up. They choose what & by who medicines can be prescribed. . Nice “recommendations” don’t seem to count for much. Unbelievable that resources should be wasted this way, what is wrong with a national list so everybody has access to the same drugs & treatments? Postcode lottery is awful. I’ve today changed my GPs so that I can access a sleeping tablet that I was refused in one county despite NICE approval. I’m glad I live on a county & country border.
So no symptoms of T2, not peeing more, no thirst. I struggle to eat to be honest, it causes a little tension with Hubby, he's always asking have you ate, what have you had to eat, he'll cook stuff and I take one look or smell and just can't. Always been a bit odd food wise but sometimes just have no interest. I don't eat processed stuff, won't eat meat/pies/stews etc if I haven't prepared and cooked it. Occasionally will have a beef burger, lean mince bit garlic , seasoning . Hubby did some and I couldn't eat them , he put breadcrumbs in (too much) and the texture made me want to vomit. Lately eating , rice cakes peanut butter on few raspberries little drizzle of choc shot, cheese crackers, alpro no sugar plain yoghurt with oats in some soft fruit, drizzle honey. chicken fajitas , home made, salad and wraps, make a marinade of sweet chilli and grainy mustard then spread over salmon and grill. Crisps are a treat food, as are salted peanuts. Been same weight for maybe 12 / 18 months 100 kg no matter how little or much I eat. Mostly drink water, have a filter jug, during day, have to make a conscious effort to drink couple of litres a day, 2 or 3 cups of tea a day, poison of choice gin /tonic ice and slice, or nice glass of red. Like prosecco but they local shop stopped stocking a decent sugar free version so haven't had any for long time. I said the only change was reduction in Levo, 150 to 125 daily, but just realised I have really dropped down on B12 injections. Was doing twice weekly think I have only done 3 or 4 in last couple of months. Have got a bit forgetful with some of my supplementing. Been very stressful at home, daughter treated for B12, I am having various scans x/rays bloods via rheumatology ? arthritis, waiting on endo appointment, referred to Gynae in December , polyps discovered popping out of cervix , found at smear, chasing but getting no where. Still have this odd sinus/cough thing since November, clears up a bit , not as bad as was but not gone. Mother in law took to hospital 3/4 weeks ago, found to be completely full of tumours given 2 weeks lasted 2 1/2 weeks, all the drama and stress has drained me, back to forgetting words , aches and pains. CRP now up to 12.36 <5. just feel bit like sh**e really.
Sounds as if the stress you’ve been under is playing havoc. Certainly if you can’t face food. Your CRP is high. Obviously inflammation in your body. Maybe look at a diet that reduces it like a Mediterranean diet or don’t worry too much at the moment with so much going on just try & keep a balance.
The foods you mention are all ok so don’t worry too much. When you feel stronger you can have a go at a specie diet to see how you respond. B12 would be good to keep at a high level if you can.
I think the only way to figure it out is to use a glucosemeter. I realize that it can get somewhat expensive but knowledge is power. Obviously your current diet is not working for you. Modify accordingly.
You can eat carbs but not all carbs are made equal. Check the glycemic index. Some root vegetables are actually low glycemic. Cooking, cooling, and reheating lowers the glycemic index because the molecules reconfigure and become resistant to immediate digestion. Pulses, especially when used in salads or cooked, cooled, reheated soups or stews will lower blood glucose. Basmati rice is low glycemic.
Basically everyone needs to figure it out for themselves. Everyone is different. That was ascertained by the study done in Israel using 8,000 people with either metabolic syndrome or Type 2 diabetes. There's lots of information available about this and Michael Mosley did an episode on Trust Me I'm a Doctor about this study.
Your fT3 result at 6.1 is quite high even if it is still within range. Chances are your body has been used to a much lower level for a long time. People on this forum think that 4.7 is low but if I go up to 5.6 which is supposedly much better, my glucose goes haywire. My body just will not behave according to the rules with a higher dose of T3 than 12.5 mcg. Other people around here take T3 only with doses of 50 mcg and higher and they don't become diabetic. We are all of us unique as cliche as that sounds. One size does not fit all.
T3 stimulates the liver to produce glucose. Of course it does. T3 increases metabolic rate. It's gotta come from somewhere, the energy for metabolism. Insulin response to endogenously produced glucose (i.e. gluconeogenesis from stored glycogen in the liver) is slow. It's supposed to be balanced between several hormones but this doesn't always happen.
Obviously what you are currently doing is not working out for you. You need to figure it out for yourself because after all, nobody else can do it for you.
Those glucose monitoring buttons diabetics wear on their upper arms are really good for continuous glucose monitoring except they are expensive. They are not as accurate as pinprick testing but they are excellent for recording trends.
“T3 stimulates the liver to produce glucose. …………. It’s gotta come from somewhere, the energy for metabolism”. This is exactly why I think it’s likely to be temporary - if all the issues of hypo can be brought under control. We know that the body always tries to protect itself as best it can (it has its own intelligence). When the body can’t use food as an appropriate source of energy, because the thyroid levels just cannot actually service the biochemical needs, the body stores it somewhere safely and it does, for years and years and years - if it can. There are a number of places in the body this can happen, some worse than others. Fatty liver etc. However with being hypothyroid this is where mucin comes in. It’s safe to store there within the mucin because it’s not easily got rid of. It’s a one way street without appropriate thyroid levels. The process which binds it there is virtually permanent as long as thyroid levels remain out of kilter. It does not leak into the blood easily from here. This only happens when thyroid levels allow the process to start working again, especially noticeable with T3. It’s the missing link. We are so ‘monitored’ by the NHS (because although diabetes is potentially a danger) this ‘moment’ is caught in testing and all hell is let loose. Diabetes is a well recognised Co-morbidity of Hypothyroidism. It’s a pity they just don’t take hypothyroidism seriously in the first place and chances are this could be sorted out without further intervention (hysteria). It does not seem to be on a medic’s radar.
Our additional set of problems, being hypo, is that knotty problem of ‘is it over or under medication’ or is it just the body’s natural way to deal with it once thyroid hormones are re-introduced.
Polo22 describes her relationship with food which is remarkably similar to mine. I have only recently realised it’s a symptom of under medicated - for me. Not everyone responds in the same way to thyroid hormones.
However I think you have a brilliant idea about checking glucose levels. I have no idea how much these things cost but knowledge is power and it could be very revealing.
On another note, in times of severe stress on the body, accidents, heart attacks etc, the body will release glucose in increased amounts in an attempt to save the body. It happens in real emergencies. So is it such a big surprise that once the body gets its hands on thyroid hormones it immediately starts to attempt to right itself?
I never thought of my oddness about food in relation to being undermedicated but it is a sound hypothesis. My oddness has always been there but recently even I have to admit it has gotten a little out of hand, just no interest in food, and having skinny no skeletal GP/health worker patronising me with , well you know you just have to eat healthily and you'll lose weight, swear I am amazed there aren't more murders committed.
'So is it such a big surprise that once the body gets its hands on thyroid hormones it immediately starts to attempt to right itself?'
No idea but I wouldn't assume that a large increase in fT3 accompanied by a diabetic range for HbA1c is a good thing. If high blood glucose occurs with things like infection, inflammation, and stress, then perhaps all of a sudden increasing fT3 high in range means the body is interpreting the new 'normal' as being abnormal.
Studies indicate that healthy young people have fT3 ranging between 5.2 to 5.6. Just because 6.1 is 'in range' that doesn't mean it is any healthier than a 3.9 which is also 'in range'.
Large increase? 6.25 , I don't really understand your point. "perhaps all of a sudden increasing fT3 high in range means the body is interpreting the new 'normal' as being abnormal." there was no sudden anything. last time I increased T3 my FT3 had dropped down to 4.55, the increase was 1/4 tab = 6.25 . As for studies and ranges, we all know being in range/normal does not equate to being well
No matter what, you just can’t compare ill people with healthy people. As we know, even the blood tests can’t show what’s going on in the cells. So ‘ranges’ themselves are not even accurate. They can’t be depended on. A guide only.
However as I was only projecting an undetermined theory; of course there is good reason to try to keep inflammation at a minimum. It’s a matter of how! Decent thyroid levels is one method. If only that were easily possible. Unfortunately ‘abnormal’ is everything we suffer with hypo, especially hypos who don’t respond to levo alone. T3 remains unexplored by mainstream prescribing medics, because basic simple things, like T3 levels are not (allowed to be) monitored, far less compared with glucose levels. No-one is picking up this information because of the ‘guidelines’ around thyroid issues. The facts are just not available and until they are, everything we do, especially if feeling forced to self medicate, are ‘unknown’. I guess many decisions are based around what quality of life each of us is aiming for. If we genuinely feel well it’s less likely we are doing something ‘wrong’ and equally if we are feeling unwell, we go on looking to put things right.
If our medics supported our thyroid journey ‘inflammation’ would be part of it. We are mostly (at least I am) left to find out everything for myself. Medics are remarkably lacking in curiosity in my experience and they resist discussion.
Raised glucose levels is a situation which rears its head often enough on the forum to know this is a ‘thing’ that ideally should be properly researched. Maybe even more so now, because more people are trying T3. Hence my previous suggestion it would be a good research project to attempt to see what’s going on.
I have not seen any feedback after people have raised the issue. Is it permanent or temporary? Maybe when people begin to feel better they are out there grabbing the lives they had just stopped experiencing when ill. Oh I would like to think so! However their experience with this issue would be useful.
People following the ZOE project report back with interesting and sometimes surprising info about individual responses to certain foods re: glucose levels. However it’s another ‘thing’ requiring commitment when mostly people remain at a low ebb.
was on 150 Levo , T3 25, in November GP TSH 0.01 T4 21.6 no T3, HbA1c 54, lipids 5.14. T3 went up dosage slowly was going well, as per wonderful advice on here, feeling some benefit, lipids going down all good. Then for some reason, October , T3 seemed to stall, drop a little and lipids went back up a little so increased again to 12.5 BD , had been on that since, , I am so upset and confused, plus worried about other possible scary health things, waiting on appointment re ?not good polyps growing out of cervix, vit D dropped a bit but still good at 107 CRP up to 12.36 150 feel it has dropped. Brain fog, losing words aching feet , ankles , Last results I did same day as GP bloods, to compare. To be honest with all the other stuff going on here this just knocked my confidence and threw me a bit. So I need to go back to 3 x 1/4 then see GP about Levo,
Have a read up on berberine supplement. I can't say for sure this is what helped me to start losing weight and bringing down blood results for fatty liver and cholestero as i know exercise has also helped. I have my 6 monthly endo appointment on Friday so will see what my latest bloods are like. It's likely I've been insulin resistant for years but feel I've turned a corner now after taking berberine for a few months and keeping up with exercising 2/3 time a week.It's worth a try!
Yes I buy 5 greens berberine extract 600mg off ebay. I took 1 before each meal. Stayed on it for 4 months. I Just take a capsule now if eating a heavy carb meal.
Like i say, can't say for sure as I changed my T3 brand around same time but I think it was the berberine.
those results 150 T4 were November which GP insisted on reduction and lied about it too, drama sorted and eventually reluctantly agreed to reduction to 125 T4. T3 at the time well few weeks before as GP refuses to test, was 4.55 had dropped from 5.15 and lipids were increasing. My T4 is a mystery to me, the result on these doses was FT4 21.6 and T3 had only been increased to 25 a month earlier as it had started to drop. My earlier result BH in October 3 weeks earlier still on T4 150, was 17.9 same range as GP 12 - 22, FT3 4.55 3.1- 6.8 . So I am confused as I wouldn't have thought increasing my T3 by 6.25 3 weeks before GP bloods would have pushed FT4 up by 3.7 , especially as GP bloods in Feb following reduction to 125 T4 in November,dropped FT4 to 17. BH bloods same day FT4 17.2 FT3 6.1 3.1-6.8 , see I am confused
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