SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Blanche1960

So can you move the 1/4 grain to late afternoon initially

Blanche1960 in reply to SlowDragon

Great stuff will do that! Why didn’t I think of that.. I was just thinking trying to half 1 and a quarter!

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pennyannie in reply to Blanche1960

From memory both Medichecks and Blue Horizon offer a nurse ' home visit ' to draw your blood if that suits you, it's an added cost and think between them they offer a country wide service.

Blanche1960 in reply to pennyannie

Hi pennyannie that’s useful to know Thankyou so much!

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radd in reply to Hidden

Oh my goodness PC71,

I have given explanation backed with evidence for why T3 levels reduce in the presence of RT3, and why your statement ‘it is said that rT3 is inactive, only stays in the body for a few hours’ risks being incorrect during illness.

You have then asked a load more questions which I’ll try to answer best I can but they will only be opinion based (thank goodness for copy & paste 😬).

‘I honestly believe that Tania S. Smith is too complicated for her own good.’

But YOU gave ME one of her articles! 🤣🤣🤣

‘She does not help thyroid patients by using one complicated medical terms’

Tania Smith has been recognised by both our own Diogenes and Americas Antonio Bianco. They are all fighting our cause, and Tania writes about the immense complexities of thyroid hormone in a simpler form for us patients to try gaining understanding. What she can not do is change these complex mechanisms, only attempt writing about them in a simpler form which she tries complete with many diagrams. I know some members & others including myself have benefited hugely from her articles. I am sorry you don't understand but does it even matter when you have top scientists telling you. It is helpful to understand but not essential in the believing of something.

‘I believe it’s counterproductive to tell people that high rT3 levels are problematic without offering them any concrete advice as how to determine’:

Tania Smith provides all info in the article. It is better for everyone to supply evidence to back statements rather than to just say someone else has told you 🙄. It is also difficult to get across how damaging illness or over-medication of thyroid hormone can be without mentioning thyroid hormone enzymes and RT3. Diogenes has posted a wonderful article today on homeostasis of which thyroid hormone enzymes (deiodinases) will be hugely influencing. We can only offer what we know for others to use or ignore as they see fit.

frontiersin.org/articles/10...

‘so how does it work with rT3? Is there a "one size fits all"?

No.

'given that so few laboratories seem to test rT3, not to mention that so few doctors order this test, how are patients supposed to diagnose problematic rT3 levels?'

I don't know. Who said patients are supposed to diagnose problematic RT3 levels?

“how to lower high rT3 levels? In order to do that, they would need to know what caused them in the first place. Going off or lowering levo will lower rT3 for sure but, if the cause is not identified, they would have to stay off levo or rT3 will rise again if they don´t address the reason it was high to begin with”.

Yes, agree and the same for T3 meds also.

But, as has been pointed out several times, by greygoose among others, high rT3 levels are not always thyroid-related’…

Yes, agree. In fact overmedication is the only thyroid related cause of RT3 and everything else is too numerous to list.

“The fact that high rT3 can be caused by many things not thyroid-related also means that people without thyroid disease can have high rT3 levels. Do they also have symptoms of low metabolism?’

Not necessarily as some people just function well with high RT3 levels. We all require varying levels just the same as that of thyroid hormone. As a side note if a person were to become symptomatic with high RT3 without thyroid issues it is called non-thyroidal illness.

‘without knowing the cause, how are patients supposed to lower their high rT3 permanently to begin with?’

By using anything known to promote good thyroid function. Because the cause will remain unknown often many different approaches are required to alleviate symptoms but you must know this already. This is why the forum advocates for optimal iron, nutrients, etc, etc. Low iron & inflammation are most likely two of the biggest drivers of elevated RT3 on this forum.

‘Also, anorexia is an interesting example as starvation is said to cause high rT3. It makes sense because the body is trying to preserve energy. But that would mean that anorexia patients would be overweight, not underweight, if high rT3 means less free T3. However, they are not.’

Errr, I think this a little more complicated than that, and way beyond my pay grade 😁. I've only really studied topics I have experienced myself.

‘In many cases, I guess it would be very difficult or even impossible to pinpoint the reason rT3 was high to begin with. After all, most thyroid patients have autoimmune thyroiditis so inflammation’

Yes, and inflammation is a huge driver of RT3 and why it is thought lowering antibodies is important.

‘They have been trying to lose weight for years, often by severely restricting calories. And so on and so on. So, in theory, those patients would have to take less levo and more T3 indefinitely to keep rT3 down, unless they could find a very knowledgeable doctor to work with them, help them find the cause and correct it.’

No, that is an old debunked myth. Nowadays, T4 meds aren’t withheld, but possibly causes addressed, ie optimise iron, nutrients, reduce inflammation, don’t medicate more thyroid hormone than our body can tolerate.

‘Also, some people who have had their rT3 levels tested have found out their rtT3 levels were high, but they were asymptomatic. So, does high rT3 really cause symptoms in all patients? It would seem not’

Already discussed above.

Remember RT3 is a natural metabolite that is made to keep our T4 & T3 hormones balanced and in amounts we can not only tolerate but make use of. It is only when there is imbalance that it can work against us. Hope all this helps 😊

Capella1 in reply to radd

wo qestions we all want answered but dont no how to ask thank u rad 👍

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Hidden in reply to Capella1

Would you care to explain what you mean in non-Shakespeareian?

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Hidden in reply to radd

I only included that relatively short article by Tania as it is obvious you trust her, and it´s the only article by her I´ve found that I was able to read and more or less understand. Even if Tania´s expertise is recognised by both Diogenes and Dr. Bianco, that does not mean that her texts are user-friendly. She should have someone edit her texts for the public, or at least sum up her most important findings in an easy-to-read regular digest.

I cannot imagine many people find her articles easy to read. So, the question is: for whom does she write them? If doctors are the target group, fine. But they are not at all patient-oriented.

Personally, I feel that the rT3 dominance theory offers desperate people false hope. If rT3 levels are not routinely measured and monitored, how are people supposed to be diagnosed in the first place, and how are they supposed to know that treatment is working? And, if they don´t know what caused high rT3 in the first place, how are they supposed to stop it from rising again...there are simply too many variables involved for me to find these arguments in favour of rT3 dominance convincing.

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tattybogle in reply to Hidden

We understand things best when they are presented in the same way our mind works best.. i need pictures diagrams and analogies , rather than plain text statements because i have to 'see' how the cogs of a thing actually work before i can just accept a statement and apply it's meaning to another aspect of the process in question .. so even though i have to look at Tania's articles slowly , one sentence at a time, (and sometimes need a dictionary) ... i do find them very easy to understand because she obviously has a similar 'visual' method of understanding to me . I have spoken to lots of others on here who learn best in the same 'visual' way and who find her articles helpful. Her writing style will suit some of us better than others , it's true , but i assure you, plenty of thyroid patients do find her stuff very useable .

as for the RT3 issue , well i know where you're coming from about it being a false hope for desperate people , you do see so many people saying "it's my rT3 dominance" who clearly haven't understood (and are about to get fleeced) .

But even though that way of looking at rT3 is incorrect , i do understand that if the rT3 is caused by high fT4 then it does indicate an issue that we should address , because if it's caused by high T4, then the same D3 deiodinase processes responsible for the high rT3 will be making the overall T3 situation worse , by turning our T4 into rT3 before it gets to the nucleus, and turning more T3 to T2 faster .. so end result ... less T3 all round .

The way i understand what Tania was saying about rT3 and D3 was basically .. "it's not the rT3 itself that is the problem .. but in thyroid patients with too much T4 (for them ), the high rT3 is the canary in the coal mine, telling them D3 is lowering how much T3 is getting to their cells" ... or at least that's how far i've got so far over a few months of thinking about it occasionally ....... must admit i can only tolerate so much 'tania' at one time or it does make my brain hurt .. so i may not have got rT3/D3 100% sorted in my head yet ... but i understand enough to realise rT3 is relevant to patients with high fT4 levels, it's just not relevant in quite the way it was originally discussed in the now debunked " rT3 blocks T3 receptors" theory .

And i don't think we really need to test for rT3 (unless we've got money to burn) , because presumably we can deduce if high fT4 is likely to be an issue for someone by fT4 /fT3 /TSH levels.

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Hidden in reply to tattybogle

Just to be clear on this: so Tania is now considered the authority on this issue?

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radd in reply to Hidden

PC71,

Not Tania Smith alone. She is a professor but has no formal medical/scientific education beyond high school chemistry but is self taught through immersion in thyroid scientific literature.

She is also a poorly treated hypo patient, and T3 recovered her brilliant brain that can translate the works of John Midgley (the forums very own Diogenes), Antonio Bianco and the likes of many other thyroid hormone scientists.

Their recognition of her translations mean her understanding is genuine,

so she can offer real insight into scientific papers that are usually unavailable to us because of jargon and scientific terminology.

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greygoose in reply to radd

A professor of what?

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radd in reply to greygoose

gg,

Something obscure I think. I’ll look her later 😁

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Hidden in reply to radd

Is this her; it´s the only Tania. S Smith (not Sonia) that I have found who is also a professor and in Canada?commfilm.ucalgary.ca/manage...

So, she is a professor of communication, film and media...not sure how that makes her an authority on thyroid disorders and treatment. She´s a thyroid patient? Well, so am I! Which makes me an authority on thyroid disorders and treatment...! From all the references to her "work" here, I expected her to be an MD and a professor of endocrinology...at the very least.

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radd in reply to greygoose

gg,

Diogenes introduces Dr Sonia Smith to us here, as a tenured associate professor of communication at the University of Calgary.

.

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

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greygoose in reply to radd

Thank you.

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tattybogle in reply to Hidden

Tania S. Smith ~ it's not her own research she is writing about, her articles are about research/studies that have been done by others, so i don't consider her 'an authority' no , but so far i have found that she correctly and accurately represents what is written in the studies / research that she writes about. They are all properly referenced so if something she writes is lacking in clarity, or we don't think it sounds 'right' , it's easy enough to look up the original study and check whether what she written/ or the numbers used are a true representation of what any study actually wrote in it 's text.

She has written about some of diogenes groups papers and he has recommend her articles to us on here, which gives me a good deal of confidence that her interpretations are acceptable to those who did the original work.

I consider her good at interpreting/ explaining complex data and concepts i would otherwise struggle to understand, and putting the information in a way i can 'see' it.

so for me she's "a trusted illustrator", not an authority in her own right.

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helvellaAdministrator in reply to Hidden

It is an expensive test.

Most tests are actually done in the USA (blood samples are posted over) which adds to delay.

Even in the USA there isn't an FDA-approved rT3 test. (The FDA know it is being offered and at least some documentation from labs says that. It simply has not yet been put forward and been demonstrated to be acceptable for approval. It might have shortcomings such as labs varying - and we have enough of that issue with the thyroid hormones.)

It can change quite rapidly.

There is little evidence that rT3 in itself is the cause of problems.

Hidden in reply to helvella

Thank you, Helvella, that was exactly my point!

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radd in reply to Hidden

PC71,

'Also, if rtT3 can be such a problem and even keep people from getting well, why are members here not advised to require that test?'

I tend to agree with helvella .... it is an expensive test, takes ages to come back and is hugely difficult to interpret.

'I have not seen a single administrator recommend rT3 testing'

I don't think I have either but this it irrelevant as the forums space holds equal importance, but fyi I was previously one of this forums admin team years back 😉.

radd in reply to Hidden

PC17,

🤔 .. .. You mix me up. I have never asked for ‘move on’ before, I have never needed too.

Just suggested in jest because we have taken over the O/P's post (sorry Blanche1960), and I have offered all I know but apologies if it came across as dismissive 😊. You could always start your own post if you have further questions.

With regard to summing up Tania’s articles in a simpler fashion, that is a great idea and one that has been suggested on the forum quite a few times. The difficulties are how to simplify an immensely complex subject and I am always mindful of what I put out is correct.

Edited 08.05.2022 - to advise offer withdrawn after it's been pointed out you state 'its a fruitless discussion' and 'don’t agree' anyway 🤷‍♀️.

Hidden in reply to radd

No, I am not mixing you up with someone else.I think many members would appreciate a reader´s digest of Tania´s articles. I do not think that one single person holds all the answers, but as least members would be able to judge for themselves. Not all of us have a background in science. A problem in this case is that Tania does not seem to write about her own theories, but rather she explains/interprets the theories of others, so it´s kind of a two-step approach...but I am sure you will find a way to sum up her most important findings in an easy-to-read, user-friendly version.

😊

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Hidden in reply to radd

With regard to summing up Tania’s articles in a simpler fashion, that is a great idea and one that has been suggested on the forum quite a few times. The difficulties are how to simplify an immensely complex subject and I am always mindful of what I put out is correct.

Edited 08.05.2022 - to advise offer withdrawn after it's been pointed out you state 'its a fruitless discussion' and 'don’t agree' anyway 🤷‍♀️.

This was actually quite funny. I did not suggest a "Tania S. Smith for dummies" version as a personal favour to me, but as a way to help members who most likely struggle to make sense of her articles, especially since links to said articles regularly appear here on the forum.

Over the years, I have become more critical of the STTM, for the following reasons: (1) I find them too dogmatic ("NDT is best for everyone and T4 drugs are useless") and (2) they don´t seem updated when it comes to newer research. So they keep repeating myths which have since been debunked (rT3 dominance, T3 pooling), and then you see those myths perpetuated on other forums because many patients believe everything they say on the STTM. But, there is one fundamental difference between the STTM and Tania: the STTM is truly patient-oriented. If someone asks a question, the forum owner will reply herself, in a way that everyone can understand.

That, to me, is what being a patient advocate truly means, not just repeating things you have read in medical journals and articles. Of course doctors and researchers will vouch for that, but what about patients who have to read all that scientific stuff? To me, it´s not about Tania being wrong, but about her approach that I don´t find patient-oriented.

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tattybogle in reply to Hidden

"difference between the STTM and Tania: the STTM is truly patient-oriented. If someone asks a question, the forum owner will reply herself, in a way that everyone can understand ..To me, it´s not about Tania being wrong, but about her approach that I don´t find patient-oriented. "

purple cat . if you read to the end of any of thyroid patients canada articles , you will find a comments section.

it is possible to ask questions directly in the comments section if you want something clarified.... questions/comments are often answered in person on there ,in quite a lot of detail.. (and i believe there is also a ? facebook group , but i don't use that myself )

The replies on comments seem quite helpful .

As we all must realise as thyroid patients ~We are all different ~ i find her way of explaining the science very helpful .. so it's 'horses for courses' isn't it ?

You're obviously not a fan of her writing /thinking /illustrating style and don't find it helpful .. that's ok , but Thyroid Patients Canada is a useful resource for lots of 'unscientific' normal thyroid patients like me.

We all just have to find whatever help us most when we are trying to get our heads round how the science works . eg. you might find looking at the original full text of research/studies easier to understand if 'language' is the way your brain works ....whereas i'd get a headache .

But , if you're looking for very simplified concepts / guidance written for absolutely anyone to be able to understand , then thypatients ca, is probably not the best place for it ..that's clearly not what it's attempting to be. To 'dumb down' the work any further would be rather missing the point of it .. it is there as a visual aid to understanding extremely complex processes, for those who are interested in those complexities . It is not intended as a simple guide for those who are not.

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Hidden in reply to tattybogle

Different people have different opinions of Tania Smith. However, I think it´s wrong to simply refer to her as "doctor" as that will most likely make people think she´s an MD. For a long time, I also assumed she was an MD simply because of her very scientific language. It was only yesterday I found out she is a PhD, because someone points it out on Paul Robinson´s website where he also referred to Tania as a "doctor". I think it would be more fair to present her as a "thyroid patient".

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tattybogle in reply to Hidden

I didn't think any of us here were referring to her as a 'doctor' ? ... pretty sure someone would soon point out that she's 'not that sort of a doctor' if they did .

ThyroidpatientsCa. website certainly doesn't give anyone the impression she's a 'Doctor' of that sort , there's no intention to deceive on there ... i got the impression you already knew she was not a medical doctor when you introduced us to her articles on the forum 8 months ago .. but perhaps you didn't. healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

"Deiodinase Type 3, not RT3, plays the T3-blocking role

By thyroidpatientsca on November 14, 2019 "

someone commented the articles could be hard to get at first, but got easier if you kept at it , and you replied:

"True, you have to be patient enough to get through them...but they are backed up by thorough research and honestly seem more trustworthy to me than many articles by so called thyroid experts/functional doctors..."

Thyroidpatients.Ca website clearly states :

"Who we are

Our officers, directors, and leaders are dedicated patients who are volunteering to build momentum. Currently our board includes:

President and founder: Tania S. Smith (author of most of our website content)

Vice-president: Alexa Mahling Deskin

Treasurer: Sylvia Fader

Secretary: Lea A. Davis

Directors: Tania Pereira (and others TBA).

Beyond our board, we also have patients serving in a board Advisory Group, volunteer Facebook group moderators, and a Lab Test Action Group."

So if some people are accidentally misunderstanding her academic title of Dr. as meaning 'medical Doctor' just because she writes uses scientific language (which is surely unavoidable when writing about science in the depth/ precision that she does) ... then that is hardly due to any 'intentional deception' , surely ?

I can't speak for Paul Robinsons website obviously , but i've certainly never given anyone on here the impression she's 'a Doctor' .. (of any sort) ., and nor have i seen "Dr" used on here very often if at all ... most people seem to just write Tania /Tania Smith / Tania .S. Smith .

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Hidden in reply to tattybogle

No, I didn´t know. I assumed someone who writes that kind of complicated articles and uses all that scientific language must be a doctor. Tania was referred to as "Dr" on another thyroid blog and someone pointed out that she is not. She is often referred to here with such reverence that it´s easy to think she really is some kind of medical expert. Add to this the fact that she is often referred to in the same context as Diogenes and it´s easy to get the impression she is a medical professional/researcher. Other thyroid patient activists, such as Janie Bowthorpe and Mary Shomon, are never referred to that way as far as I know.

I have come a long way in the past eight months...I have learned that not all is gold that glitters. It´s known as personal development. Or learning to think for yourself.

I have become more critical of things I read (here and elsewhere), and look into a person´s background and credentials before I decide to believe everything they say. The problem is that when you trust someone to have all the answers, it´s easy to stop thinking for yourself.

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tattybogle in reply to Hidden

Well yes .. a good idea to check someone's references/ motivations first ...... but it's never a good idea to trust anyone to have all the answers, or to believe everything they say ...... no matter how well referenced/respected they are. If you follow any group / person blindly , then you will be disillusioned eventually ~ best to do your own critical thinking from the start rather than believe in a guru.

But i really can't see what your issue with thypatients. ca is , except that you mistakenly thought she was doing the research herself and presenting her own theories .. when it's really just a careful dissection of previous research by lots of other people .

So there's really nothing of Tania's to 'believe' or 'not to believe' .. it is other researchers findings explained with the addition of pictures .... if you don't think something on there is accurate ... go to the source reference and , check it out independently for yourself . I have only found one or two questionable sentences, or inaccuracies in the presentation ,and nothing too serious.... but the amount of information on there is so massive , i've probably only read about 1/10th of it so far .

But i'm sure they would be only too pleased to hear from you if you find any .

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