Could anyone help me finindng a reputable non-prescription T3 supplier? If you could, please private message me
I have been on 125-150 mgrs of Levo for 20 years ( had TT at 17). However, I have never been feeling optimal on T4. I stayed on T4 all these years because I believed in my doctors and I believed when they said that the low mood, energy levels etc was something to do with anxiety and depression. And they prescribed anti anxiety pills and pills for depression. Although deep down I think I knew they were by products of something else,,,,who was I to disbelief my doctors that know it all!!!???
After starting T4/T3 Combined Therapy in December 2021, my symptoms got better straight away. The feeling of not being cold all the time was the first one.
However, I still have some concentration problems, brain fog, memory etc. However, the private Endo does not seem to want me to increase my T3 from 20mcgrs to 30 or 40 mcgrs. He wants to take it easy but after 20 years on the wrong/un-optimal medication for me, I will take my time but it seems like a safe thing to do to add half-20mcgs-pill to the 20mcgs of T3, providing that I reduce my T4 from 100mcgrs to 75mcgrs??
Every time I go to the Private Endo is really expensive. I have a referral to my NHS Endo in 2 months and I hope she will be willing to help me but until that moment.
Thanking you in advance. I am so thankful that I found you All. Hopefully I can get my life back thanks to you all.
Kindest regards
Carla
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Well, we'd be better able to help you if you posted some blood tests results - recent ones, and ones done before you started T3 to see how well you were converting.
it seems like a safe thing to do to add half-20mcgs-pill to the 20mcgs of T3, providing that I reduce my T4 from 100mcgrs to 75mcgrs??
I'm afraid that's not necessarily so. For several reasons.
Firstly, 20 mcg, whilst not being a terrifically high dose, is higher than average already.
Secondly, T3 should only be increased by 5 mcg every two weeks - but when one gets to the dose your on, it's best done even more slowly, because your sweet-spot is so easy to miss if you go any faster. Also, you need to give your body time to adjust inbetween increases, and it adjusts better to 5 mcg than 10 mcg.
Thirdly, the idea that x mcg T3 is equal to y mcg T4 is a false one. It's not as simple as that. In fact, I read a good quote on that subject just this morning. It's talking about Dr Blanchared:
My favourite statement of his concerns the fallacy that 1mcg T3 is metabolcally equivalent to 4mcg T4 and that this "fundamentally wrong teaching" was being used to work out combo doses. He gave the example that some doctors told patients that you had to reduce T4 dose by 20mcg daily to add a 5mcg daily dose of T3. He said:
"To me, this is like saying if you want to reduce meat consumption by one pound per week, you should substitute 4 bananas. It does not compute!"
We don't even know if your FT4 even needs reducing, without seeing labs, but I rather doubt it. And, reducing it too far could make you feel even worse.
And, on top of all that, it's very doubtful if you'll find 20 mcg T3 tablets without a prescription. They are almost always 25 mcg, which means that half a tablet would be 12.5 mcg.
Most importantly, have you had your nutrients tested? No thyroid hormone replacement will work efficiently for you if you have nutritional deficiencies.
Well, we'd be better able to help you if you posted some blood tests results - recent ones, and ones done before you started T3 to see how well you were converting - See pic below
I am looking forward to hearing from you. You may find some responses to your questions on the SlowDragon post. I am new to this site and I somehow missed your post and saw SlowDragon's first.
Well, it's pretty obvious that you are a poor converter. But what worries me is that your FT3 dropped drastically between 26/1/22 and 25/3/22. What happened? Did you reduce your dose? Or change the way you take it? How long a gap did you leave between your last dose of T3 and the blood draw? You appear now to be very under-medicated.
But you certainly don't want to reduce your levo any further. It's already pretty low.
Your nutrients are all pretty low - which is to be expected with hypothyroidism - you probably have low stomach acid making digestion and absorption of nutrients difficult. But, whether or not these low nutrients are responsible for your poor conversion is impossible to say at this point. But one thing is certain, all your nutrients need to be optimal for your body to be able to process thyroid hormone efficiently.
GreyGoose, I find it all so complex, there are so many variables!My brain fog does not help either to process the information.
In feb I had a non thyroid related operation and I reacted badly to the antibiotics. Apparently, they gave me a bit too much and my whole body reacted to it. I had rashes on the face and neck and I was sick to the stomach for over a week. That may explain things.
Also, the supplements are upsetting my stomach, specifically the iron even though it is a gentle one. I am trying to research as much as possible to understand how to increase the vitamins and minerals naturally but I work and travel a lot so it is hard to do a healthy lunch. I am ok with Breakfast and dinners. I don't drink or smoke. Looking at my blood tests, I am open to suggestions re vitamins.
What do you recommend? Shall I stick to 100mcgs of T4 and 20mcgrs of T3 a bit longer?
If it was the upset with the operation and the antibiotice, etc. that caused your FT3 to drop like that - and it could be - then it well right itself eventually. So, yes, I think you should stay on 100/20 a bit longer - until the next blood test, at least.
I expect you have low stomach acid, and that's why the supplements are upsetting your stomach. What supplements are you taking? Rather than pills, there are sprays that don't go into your stomach. There is sublingual B12, magnesium oil that you rub on. I think you can even get iron in a spray, too. But, I'm afraid I can't give you any specific names, etc. But, you could write another thread asking those that know to reply. But, whilst your stomach acid stays low, you won't be able to increase your nutrient levels just with food, however healthily you eat.
Thanks GreyGoose. I will stay in the current dosage for another 4-6 weeks.I will ask about the supplements on another thread. When you have some time, if you have some for me, could you teach me how to calculate the over conversion and under conversion? I still don't understand the concept very well. PM me with what I should be looking at.
To see how well you convert, you do the percentages for the FT4 and FT3 tested at the same time. If your FT4 is at the top of the range - 90-100% - and your FT3 right at the bottom - =/- 10% - you are a very poor converter. But yours isn't as dramatic as that.
A good converter will have the FT3 percentage just slightly lower than the FT4 percentage. Something like FT4 75% and FT3 70%. Wider gaps show varying degrees of poor conversion.
Before considering changing dose levothyroxine or T3 you need FULL Thyroid and vitamin testing done after minimum 6-8 weeks on constant unchanging dose and brand of levothyroxine and T3
How much levothyroxine are you currently taking, how much T3
When were vitamin levels last tested
What vitamin supplements are you currently taking
For full Thyroid evaluation you need TSH, FT4 and FT3 tested.
Very important to test vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12 at least once year minimum
Recommended on here that all thyroid blood tests early morning, ideally before 9am last dose levothyroxine 24 hours before test
On T3 - day before test split daily dose into 3 smaller doses, spread through the day at approx 8 hour intervals, taking last 1/3rd of daily dose 8-12 hours before test
This gives highest TSH, lowest FT4 and most consistent results. (Patient to patient tip)
Private tests are available as NHS currently rarely tests Ft3 or all relevant vitamins
List of private testing options and money off codes
Before considering changing dose levothyroxine or T3 you need FULL Thyroid and vitamin testing done after minimum 6-8 weeks on constant unchanging dose and brand of levothyroxine and T3 - Done, I have been on the same Dosage and brands for over 12 weeks now.
How much levothyroxine are you currently taking, - 100mcgs as per the private Endo's prescription
how much T3 - 20 mcgrs of Thybon Henning as prescribed by Private Endo. 10mcgrs at 5 am with water, 10 mcgrs at 1 pm with water and the 100 mcgrs when I go to bed at 9 to 10 pm. I take my meals 60 to 120 mins after intakes, apart from the bedtime one.
When were vitamin levels last tested - Some in Nov 21 and some Jan 22. See pic below
What vitamin supplements are you currently taking - Vitamin B Complex, Iron and Vitamin C plus Collagen. I am struggling trying to get the intakes not to coincide with what they interact with...such as T4 and T3 with Iron or Biotin and Vitamins C and B12. Plus I like my coffee with milk and I cannot take it close to my T3/T4 intake or even the Iron. So help will be very much appreciated. Also, I seem to tolerate liquid or sublingual ones to the pills so if someone can write privately to me (PM) with some brands that would be much appreciated since I will be trial and testing a few until I find the one I feel more comfortable with and the ones that give better results for me as per the tests that I will be doing on a regular basis.
For full Thyroid evaluation you need TSH, FT4 and FT3 tested. I will be doing this going forward, thanks for your recommendations.
Very important to test vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12 at least once year minimum - I think I have been doing this for the last 3 years, see below
Recommended on here that all thyroid blood tests early morning, ideally before 9am last dose levothyroxine 24 hours before test - Yes, I always do that.
On T3 - day before test split daily dose into 3 smaller doses, spread through the day at approx 8 hour intervals, taking last 1/3rd of daily dose 8-12 hours before test - Yes, I have done this in the last test.
I hope that you can see the summary of my most recent tests. Please let me know if the pic does not come up readable. I had problems in the past.
I am determined to take responsibility of my own health going forward and to learn all the things that you guys know about Thyroid related problems. I just wished I had known you earlier. You improved my life already since it is that by reading our posts I got the courage to challenge the doctor and I found a great improvement afterwards although not quite there yet.
Ft4 is very low in last test. Was levothyroxine dose reduced when T3 was added - Yes. From 125mcgrs to 100mcgrs when T3 was prescribed. The big question here, is whether the 125mcgrs was optimal on itself. I cannot believe how I have paid so much attention to the doctors when deep down I knew all my symptoms where thyroid related. I feel a tad bitter with them and myself. But I feel blessed that I am finding out now.
Suggest you increase levothyroxine dose by either 12.5mcg if going slowly…..or by 25mcg and retest thyroid levels in 6-8 weeks - It makes sense after understanding how my results should be read and what they mean. I will raised by 12.5mcgrs and retest on the 15th of June.
Meanwhile continue working on improving low vitamin levels - This is being a big struggle for me. On top of Complex B I need Vitamin D, Vitamin C, Iron, Magnesium, Selenium and Copper. And they seem to interact with each other and some are best not to be taken with food and time before or after T3 and T4 so it feels like my whole life is making sure that I am taking them right. Also, working around finding the right ones since they seem to upset my stomach. I am turning into liquid after today.
Personally I wouldn’t supplement copper or selenium without testing first
I did take selenium on recommendation of gastroenterologist, but never noticed much improvement. When I tested it was over range. I now just take once a week
Understood. I am starting to believe that perhaps starting with be basic ones first my be best. That is Vitamin C, Complex B and Iron for now. as it is all getting to much at the moment.
Thorne Basic B or Jarrow B Right are recommended options that contains folate, but both are large capsules. (You can tip powder out if can’t swallow capsule)
IMPORTANT......If you are taking vitamin B complex, or any supplements containing biotin, remember to stop these 7 days before ALL BLOOD TESTS , as biotin can falsely affect test results
With serum B12 result below 500, (Or active B12 below 70) recommended to be taking a B12 supplement as well as a B Complex (to balance all the B vitamins) initially for first 2-4 months, then once your serum B12 is over 500 (or Active B12 level has reached 70), stop the B12 and just carry on with the B Complex.
What vitamin B complex are you currently taking - Seven-Seas-Omega-3-Multivitamin-Capsules- with Vitamin D.
And iron …..do you eat red meat and offal….liver or liver pate once a week? I eat typically more than once a week but not always. The Iron I take is Spatone with Vitamin C. At the time of the blood tests, I had been taking taking the one prescribed by the NHS.
How strange, I couldn't find that on their website when I looked.
I don't think that's a good choice really.
Looking at the ingredients of that one it contains:
Soya lecithin - we understand that soya is best avoide)
B12 prep - whatever that is. It should say if it's methylcobalamin or cyanocobalamin form of B12, it says neither so what is it? Seven Seas are cheap supplements with cheap ingredients so it most certainly wont be methylcobalamin which is the recommended form of B12 as it's the converted form
It contains 3.4mcg B12 which wont do anything, and even if it did the supplement contains Vit C which can keep the body from using B12.
Folic acid - cheap form, methylfolate is the recommended form, again it is the converted form
Vit K - there are two forms of Vit K and it doesn't say which form. K1 is the blood clotting form and K2 is the form that directs calcium to bones and teeth and away from arteries and soft tissues where it can cause problems, K2 is the form needed when taking Vit D. As it doesn't say which form it is it will be the K1 blood clotting form which is cheap and often used in multis.
Biotin is mentioned but not listed
And the most stupid mistake they could possibly make on their website
Vitamin B12 can also be know as folate. It's role in the body is to make red blood cells as well as releasing the energy your body needs from the food you eat.
Utter tosh! B12 is B12. Folate is B9.
Really, multi's like that are a waste of time and money. If you want a B Complex, buy a decent B Complex. If you want Vit D then buy a decent Vit D and make sure you also take D3's important cofactors magnesium and Vit K2-MK7.
That is quite unbelievable really. Why do they get away with it? I mean, supplements should follow a rigorous process in terms of quality of the product and information about them. Taking too much or the wrong one can bring problems.
I don't know what regulations there are within the supplement industry but they get away with it because the power of advertising convinces people that they need these things to stay well. The majority of people don't know about the different forms of vitamins, the difference between the converted and unconverted forms (and for some people that wouldn't matter if their bodies are good at converting into the bioavailable form), which ones can and can't be taken together, etc.
It's strange that it's usually the cheapest and least effective supplements that are advertised. The good quality ones, rarely sold on the high street, survive without advertising, probably by reputation/word of mouth.
Suggest you stop taking multivitamin that and get a GOOD QUALITY vitamin B complex
Thorne Basic B
or
Jarrow B Right
Both are recommended options that contains folate, but both are large capsules. (You can tip powder out if can’t swallow capsule….I do this)
Don’t be surprised…..All vitamin B complex will turn your urine bright yellow
IMPORTANT......If you are taking vitamin B complex, or any supplements containing biotin, remember to stop these 7 days before ALL BLOOD TESTS , as biotin can falsely affect test results
As your serum B12 result below 500, (Or active B12 below 70) recommended to be taking a B12 supplement as well as a B Complex (to balance all the B vitamins) initially for first 2-4 months, then once your serum B12 is over 500 (or Active B12 level has reached 70), stop the B12 and just carry on with the B Complex.
You were hypothyroid before thyroidectomy…..was thyroidectomy because of goitre ? - I was diagnosed with papillary cancer at 17 years old. I was healthy and happy. Only noticed I had a small nodule, the size of a chick pea. My Endo said that it was most likely to do with environmental causes and he referred many times to Chernobyl. It seemed quite strange to me since it is miles from here but that is what he said and I know radiation can travel far.Knowing what I know now, I would have left my nodule there and I would not have gone to the puncture. I would have followed up and monitor the nodule but nothing else. They messed it up and the content came out so I was rushed to theatre a couple of days after the results came back from the lab. That is why I ended up where I am.
Have you had coeliac blood test done - Yes, apparently I have not got problems there. Test was performed 5 years ago
Are you on or have you tried strictly gluten free diet? - No, never. I love bread and pasta and cakes. When I say that, I dont mean I eat them everyday but every other day and cakes definitely over the weekend. I never put on weight and I have been 63 kgs all my life and I am 1.73 cms.
Or dairy free diet? - I have reduced significantly the amount of milk that I take. I loved milk and cheese and had plenty of old fashion glass of milk every day. Minimum a couple. Not anymore since it interferes with T3 and T4. Same with cheese, I love it but I am mindful now so I am taking less and less. Tried almond, oat and coconut milk but I cannot get used to them.
Sorry you have had to deal with all this from such a young age
You might be amazed at gluten free diet
(I was utterly astonished)
You can still have bread and cakes
I don’t make my own bread…but I certainly bake more now I am gluten free
Plenty of good gluten free bread available these days
Yes, GF does require more pre planning certainly initially while you get use to it …but eating out is easy these days …hardest is eat at friends or family…..but actually they usually enjoy the challenge
Take way curry are pretty much impossible….though we did find one recently….my first in 7 years….was delicious
Dairy…..you just need to be aware that calcium rich foods should be well away from levothyroxine…..or if you’re going to have them eg at breakfast basically have same thing every day
Thanks SlowDragon. Yes, it was very tough. Studying the degree was quite tough (worse years of my life) and later on professionally, the little energy I had went towards gaining financial independence and keeping a job so I could not marry or have kids. Now to find out that my brain cannot take things anymore so even I won't be able to keep my job for much longer....too demanding for my brain right now.So finding you give me a chance,,,thank you so much xx
I have bought some rice flour and I will be using those for my cakes in the future. Pasta wise, I know Sainsburys does a gluten free one that I tried ones and I could not honestly notice the difference. I do not eat out much nowadays so I should be ok with a few changes in the way I do things. Thanks for your suggestion and support. I will be reporting any success or failure if that is ok.
Oats are naturally gluten free, but you need to buy certified GF oats (grown on fields that never grew wheat, barley or rye and milled in gluten free mill)
GF bread ….usually great as toast
All freeze well….take out a slice as required
Best breads in my opinion
Waitrose Brown seeded sliced
Warburtons and M&S are good
Get a new toaster - just for GF
GF pasta ….takes few minutes longer to cook but taste is excellent
Read all labels…..wheat, barley or rye hidden in loads of products
To see the pic correctly, please double click on it. Also, please note that for some biomarkers, I have two different rows, it is because some relate to NHS, some to Thriva which was the company I was using for the private blood tests. I hope that it makes sense. Thanks
I noticed that you mentioned having an upset stomach from antibiotic treatment. My life was forever changed after I was given clindamycin so you have my sympathies. I developed intolerances to foods I grew up eating and drinking. Also developed chronic stomach pain almost ever night and it lasted several years.
Before the antibiotics, I could take 2 iron pills and after the antibiotics I couldn't tolerate the gentlest iron pill, not even if I split it up. I just recently was able to introduce heme iron(most absorbable) at a measly amount of 11mg. I began splitting the pill in half for a month until I could tolerate it. During the yrs I couldn't touch any iron pills I relied heavy on red meat and liver.
I would encourage you to start slowly incorporating probiotic rich foods and supplements. I Bone broth is fantastic to heal the digestive system. Figure out your triggers and try to lessen or remove them whilst in the healing phase.
I was the same before. I had the strongest stomach in the world and now even I have to split my vitamin C supplement. Coffee and milk can also affect me. My digestion is much slower and I need to make sure that I sit still and don't move around or I get reflux. I did not think it was antibiotics related, instead I assumed it was a change of the ingredients of the supplements I was taking and perhaps they were stronger or something. Thanks for your note. I will look into prebiotics and building the lining naturally.It is all too much for me at the moment on top of my job but your message is nice, I can look forward to getting better rather than despair.
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