Help with meds, blood tests, low TSH, feeling g... - Thyroid UK

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Help with meds, blood tests, low TSH, feeling great on Nature not so great on Armour/Erfa

oceanescape
oceanescape

Hi,

Can you help with blood tests results please AND JUST A GENERAL ADVICE.

I SUFFER from ME FIBRo, Depression, can't lose weight, coarse hair, dry skin, pains, brain fog, anxiety, easy irritable, each scalp, I slept 10-12 h/day.

April

TSH 2.25 (0.35-5)

T3 -3.44 (3.8-6.7)

T4 13,99 (12-22)

I was given trial of nature thyroid FOR 6 WEEKS, FELT AMAZING!! I haven't felt so good in 8 YEARS!!! I was calm, happy, full of energy, my skin was great, didn't need naps (Napped for yearssss, ). Seriously, felt like brand new person.

Sadly, Nature thyroid were recalled. Tried ERFA AND FELT REALLY BAD, TRIED ARMOUR AND FEELING NOT GREAT PLUS MY RESULTS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY. My Neutrophils are constantly low, end was concerned about it. All other tests were negative when it comes to autoimmune conditions.

June BEFORE NATURE THYROID TRIAL.

Neutrophils 1.6 (2-7)

TSH 2,73 (0.35-5)

T3 4,8 (3.8-6.7)

T4 11.9 (7-20)

OCTOBER - ARMOUR 1 GRAIN FEELING OKISH. LOW TSH IS WORRYING ?

Neutrophile 1.9 (2-7)

TSH 0.09 (0.35-5)

T3 -4.8 (3.8-6.7)

T4 -10.01 (7-20)

1. WHY did I feel so amazing on NATURE thyroid comparing to Era and Armour?

2. What is happening to my TSH?

3. Why Neutrophils are so low?

Many thanks guys.

Gosia

27 Replies
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SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator

TSH is almost always suppressed when on any NDT or T3

For full Thyroid evaluation you need TSH, FT4 and FT3 plus both TPO and TG thyroid antibodies tested. Also EXTREMELY important to test vitamin D, folate, ferritin and B12

Low vitamin levels are extremely common, especially if you have autoimmune thyroid disease (Hashimoto's) diagnosed by raised Thyroid antibodies

Do you have Hashimoto’s

Ask GP to test vitamin levels

Recommended on here that all thyroid blood tests should ideally be done as early as possible in morning and before eating or drinking anything other than water .

If/when also on NDT make sure to take last third of daily dose 8-12 hours prior to test, even if this means adjusting time or splitting of dose day before test

Is this how you do your tests?

Private tests are available as NHS currently rarely tests Ft3 or thyroid antibodies or all relevant vitamins

List of private testing options

thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...

Medichecks Thyroid plus vitamins including folate (private blood draw required)

medichecks.com/products/thy...

Thriva Thyroid plus antibodies and vitamins By DIY fingerpick test

thriva.co/tests/thyroid-test

Thriva also offer just vitamin testing

Blue Horizon Thyroid Premium Gold includes antibodies, cortisol and vitamins by DIY fingerprick test

bluehorizonbloodtests.co.uk...

If you can get GP to test vitamins and antibodies then cheapest option for just TSH, FT4 and FT3

£29 (via NHS private service ) and 10% off if go on thyroid uk for code

thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...

monitormyhealth.org.uk/thyr...

Previous post from 6 months ago shows no antibodies

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

Have you had ultrasound scan of thyroid?

20% of Hashimoto's patients never have raised antibodies

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

Paul Robson on atrophied thyroid - especially if no TPO antibodies

paulrobinsonthyroid.com/cou...

Why did I feel so AMAZING on Nature and so low on both Erfa and Armour? I'm talking to my Endo on Sunday. I feel so low, not sure what to do.

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

Sometimes it is the fillers/binders in some of the hormone replacements that might affect us..

You can try taking one anti-histamine tablet 1 hour before a dose and if you don't have the reaction, you need to take another make.

Maybe T3 alone might improve your symptoms if your Endo is willing to trial.

oceanescape
oceanescape in reply to shaws

Thank you, I may try antihistamine.

I'm reluctant to add T3 as the cheapest on is £2/day the pharmacist told me so it will be additional £60/month just to add it to already £75 medications. (NDT and supplements).

Would T3 make sense on it's own without the NDT?

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

I completely understand and we used to get T3 prescribed until Big Pharma got greedy and the cost increased so much that prescribing was stopped - unless an endocrinologist prescribed (many still will not do so).

I've recovered my health with T3 alone.

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

We are all different

Trial and error what brand, dose and timings work for each person

Regardless of that getting all four vitamins optimal and frequently strictly gluten free diet all helps or is essential

Have you tried levothyroxine plus T3?

Thank you so much! I really appreciate your support.

I take ferrous sulphate 600 mg, D3 10 000, B complex, Selenium 200mg and Adrenal cortex 300mg.

Do I need anything else?

I haven't tried levo yet. Have been told that NDT's are the best one so focused on that.

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

So it’s absolutely essential to regularly retest vitamin levels

ALWAYS stop vitamin B complex and any supplements that contain biotin a week before ALL BLOOD TESTS as biotin can falsely affect test results

That’s a massive dose of vitamin D. Likely level is too high.

No vitamin K2, no magnesium?

Never supplement iron without full iron panel test regularly

Never take adrenal supplements without extensive testing first

regeneruslabs.com/products/...

shaws
shawsAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

In the UK, as far as I'm aware doctors/endos have been told not to prescribe NDTs (which used to the only replacement from 1892 up until levo was introduced) - (I think around the 60's) and Big Pharma saw that they could improve their profits by introducing levothyroxine (T4 alone) - plus the extras needed to try to ease symptoms.

I am aware that many people do fine on levo but the majority on this forum (myself included) couldn't improve at all and symptoms even worse.

This is the method for tests:-

The earliest possible appointment (fasting - you can drink water).

Allow a gap of 24 hours between last dose and test and take it afterwards.

Also request vitamins/minerals to be tested:

B12, Vit D, iron, ferritin and folate as everything has to be optimal.

oceanescape
oceanescape in reply to shaws

my ferritin was low 22 (12-250)

b 682 (130-800)

folate 11.66 Range>3.89

d 94.8 (50-175)

IRON 24.8 (5-30)

I MAY TRY LEVO

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

Vitamin D is about optimal, so you should be reducing vitamin D to maintenance dose, perhaps 2000iu daily. Trial and error what dose individuals need

So your ferritin was low, but your iron was NOT low

So taking ferrous fumerate probably not good idea

humanbean may pop along to discuss

SeasideSusie may pop along re importance of adrenal testing before considering adrenal supplements

Many people find NDT doesn’t suit them, can be too much T3.

Generally best to start on levothyroxine and only add T3 or try NDT if levothyroxine doesn’t give high enough Ft3

Thank you, it slowly start to make sense.

So it the ferritin the same as iron? Whats the best way to increase Ferritin then?

Is the ferrous sulphate the same as ferrous fumerate?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

Ferritin is a protein which can bind and store iron.

Ferritin is made in your body. For a start, you need sufficient iron in order for your body to be in a position to build up adequate stores as ferritin.

Is the ferrous sulphate the same as ferrous fumerate?

I don't get that question, I'm afraid. Why would they be the same thing?

You might glean some information from here:

dropbox.com/s/4d885frbic4z8...

There is a lot of very detailed information, albeit not an easy read, here:

irondisorders.org/

SeasideSusie
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

oceanescape

As your are taking adrenal cortex, have you done a 24 hour salive adrenal test to include cortisol and DHEA? If so are you regularly testing to make sure that your supplement dose is appropriate?

I had a Serum cortisol

I asked my endo about saliva, she said that the blood one is sufficient enough.

I said also that Im taking the adrenal cortex, she said that id doesn't do anything anyway. What?

9.07 Hrs.Mins

Result 346 nmol/L

Normal Range

140 - 700

That's the thing, I' not sure what to invest money in, I need some guidance. Taking supplements for a sake of it and doing random blood test won't solve my problem. My endocrinologist is very vague about recommending any test even if I'm willing to do them privately.

Shall I check Cortisol, saliva? Shall I check DHEA ?

Should I stop adrenal cortex, I carried on with it as I'm seeing improvement when taken.

SeasideSusie
SeasideSusieAdministrator in reply to oceanescape

oceanescape

I'm afraid I have no idea about serum cortisol tests, PaulineS knows a lot so if she's around hopefully she'll comment.

My understanding is that the serum and saliva test are testing different things. I only have exprience of the saliva tests and when doing that both cortisol and DHEA should be tested because the DHEA helps in determining stages of adrenal fatigue.

Without knowing the exact situation, adrenal supplementation isn't a good idea because there are supplements to raise cortisol and supplements to lower cortisol so you'd need to know exactly what you're dealing with.

If you want to do the saliva test then Regenerus or Genova Diagnostics both do cortisol plus DHEA, details of how to order are on ThyroidUK's main website:

thyroiduk.org/getting-a-dia...

I use Regenerus because they contact you directly when results are ready, with Genova they send results to ThyroidUK who send them on to you once they've received your "results request form".

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator

Low neutrophils linked to hypothyroidism

oatext.com/isolated-non-aut...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Hello Oceanescape

Just to add, no thyroid hormone replacement works well if ferritin, folate, B12 and vitamin D are not maintained at optimal levels - so this might be something to look at as from my own experience I know now that my ferritin has to be around 100 for optimal conversion of the T4 in my NDT.

I'm presuming the breakdown of T3 and T4 are the same in both these brands :

As I understand things your TSH will be low/suppressed when on NDT - it's not important :

Your T3 maybe higher in its range and your T4 lower in its range : obviously timings of dose and blood draw need to be considered but I believe with NDT we tend to " run " on a higher T3 and a lower T4 than those patients taking synthetic thyroid hormone replacement:

NDT was successfully used to treat hypothyroidism for over 100 years prior to the introduction of the blood test and guidelines that were introduced to be used alongside the newer thyroid hormone replacement launched by Big Pharma - T4 - Levothyroxine :

Thank you, I take ferrous sulphate 600 mg, D3 10 000, B complex, Selenium 200mg and Adrenal cortex 300mg.

Hey there :

Do you have any results and ranges please ?

my ferritin was low 22 (12-250)

b 682 (130-800)

folate 11.66 Range>3.89

d 94.8 (50-175)

IRON 24.8 (5-30)

Hey there -

Well I think you have found one clue there with that very low ferritin level :

I try to maintain vitamin D at around 100 :

Folate at around 20 and active B12 at around 70 + or serum B12 at around 500 + :

We are all different but read that when hypothyroid ferritin levels should up and over around 70 to assist the body in the conversion of T4 into T3.

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to pennyannie

But iron is not low, so iron supplements are probably inappropriate

Oh, ok, - so is it ok to top up with just iron rich foods and drop the iron tablets being taken - or needs further investigation ?

SlowDragon
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to pennyannie

Hoping humanbean may pop along and explain....but yes basically only iron rich foods not supplements

Thank you for pulling me up :

Your result of 346nmol/ls for your cortisol is not too bad, the adrenal cortex may be causing it to be higher than it perhaps is. I think if you do any further testing for cortisol & DHEA then you probably should come off it for at least 6 weeks before you retest.

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