Just had blood tests done was disappointed to see my ferritin level have gone down despite having chicken livers every morning for breakfast.
I had managed to get my levels up to 72 last time I was tested about 2 months ago from 40 ish back in May last year.
Having started to enjoy them with my breakfast, I started slowing increasing the amount - until I remembered being told by someone on here that I must not have more than 200 gm a week. I weighed what I normally ate now and found it was a bit over the 200 gm mark, so I cut back a bit. Then I found my levels had decreased in my blood test, and they're now down to 60.
Based on the above, do you think it would be ok to have slightly more than 200 gm per week? Or are there other issues associated with liver that I'm not aware of? I thought it might be iron toxicity for not having more than 200 gm, but my iron levels have dropped. Would it be better to take a supplement to top up the chicken livers - something like Floradix?
Any advice would be very appreciated.
I'm also trying to balance my zinc levels with copper (just had a copper test that has come back within range, but for some reason they failed to do the zinc test again), and trying to balance my selenium, D3 (which was way too high but has now come down to 226), and B12 (which has gone up again and is too high due to it being in multi Bs).
I think I was reading on Isabella Wentz's site that a very high fibre diet interferes with thyroid meds absorption, and I was wondering if this could also be the reason my ferritin isn't doing as well as I'd hoped. I eat a lot of veg and quite a bit of fruit, plus ground almonds for bread with psyllium husks. My fibre intake is way higher than most people's.
Many thanks.
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Nico101
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The reason for the 200gm maximum suggested is not because of its iron content but because liver contains lots of vitamin A. This is a fat soluble vitamin which can cause problems in overdose.
There are plenty of other foods which contain iron, although none are as good as liver. You can try including some of those in your diet if you like them. See this website for more on iron content of food :
If you really can't reliably raise your ferritin to optimal with food (note that optimal depends on the reference range of the test) then perhaps you could include a dose of an iron supplement, to see if that helps?
Can I ask how long it takes you to raise your Ferritin? Given you have chicken liver daily. Mine is stuck on 20 it may have gone done more since I tested in December. I lose a lot of blood each month which I have no control over.
Also how does copper help you? I’m afraid to take it as there’s negative and positive things I’ve heard about taking it. The only test I had was this test they put on your hand to measure levels and I tested low. Sounded airy fairy to me when the practitioner did it. Are you having these tests privately?
I think i was advised on here to start eating liver around about June last year after posting my blood test results.
I don't mind chicken livers, so I started sautéing them with veg for breakfast. By October last year at my next blood test it was 72 (up from 40). It was also 72 again in December. Now it's dropped to 60 last week.
So, I'd say it took me a couple of months at most.
I’ll definitely be looking out for chicken liver when I next go grocery shopping. Thanks for the idea. I know it keeps coming up but I can’t stand lamb’s liver and so chicken liver definitely sounds more palatable. I drastically need to do something as I’m exhausted all the time.
TBH, I'm not sure chicken livers are doing enough. I can't take more than I am and I'm concerned about the build up of vitamin A. Some health sites are saying to have liver no more than once a week - although I'm sure they're referring to much larger amounts than I eat daily.
My plan now - after much research the last couple of days - is to eat a bit less of the chicken livers (I'll miss them, as they are nice - like small pieces of pate in my veg) and take a supplement. I've found what seems to be a very good one without the nasties in it. If you're interested, I'm going to try this one:
I use acerola cherry vitamin C powder, as it doesn't upset my tummy like ascorbic acid, and will fill up some large capsules to take it with my liver and my supplement. I'm also making up a plan whereby I leave longer between my smoothie and eating chicken livers (polyphenols reduce absorbency), not having coffee straight after my chicken liver meal or close to taking the supplement (same reason), and the same with any other foods that reduce absorption of iron. Chocolate is also high in polyphenols, so I'll have to fit my brownie in there somewhere, lol. It's a bit of a nightmare, but just requires strategy, I guess.
I have to work out a schedule whereby I leave 2 hours either side of taking iron for most of my meals. I doubt I'll manage 2 hours with the smoothie, but that should be digested fairly quickly, given there is no protein in it or complex carbs.
So, to sum up my plan, I intend to maximise absorption and avoid foods and supplements that block or impede absorption at the same time. Hopefully that will work.
Do you mind sharing with us what acerola Cherry powder you’re using? I’ve just bought Magnesium Ascorbate powder which is basically buffered Vitamin Can. Thanks
It last a long time. Make sure you squeeze all the air out of the package as you seal it. That way if it inflates a bit you know it's not sealed properly - it will last for many months if you do this.
I started putting it in large 0-size capsules and take one before my chicken livers meal and I am waiting a couple of hours before having a coffee. Easy enough - just to see if it works, now. I've also ordered a supplement.
They're actually very nice sautéed in lots of butter (grass-fed organic, of course) with a bit of salt and pepper. I add turmeric to the mix.
I would prefer the pate, TBH, but I can't eat dairy, and if I can't plaster it to a warm white baguette (can't have gluten) then I'd rather not bother.
Yes I looked into the pate but the one in the shops are full of other unnecessary ingredients. I'm sure chicken liver will be nicer to eat than lambs liver, urgh. Nico101 has given us some good ideas here.
Yes, I made some buns last week. They had quite a strong flavour - not unpleasant though. My only issue is they were quite dry and a bit crumbly. The recipe was without egg, which the ground almond ones have 3 egg whites in them. I'm going to try and tweak them a bit and see if I can get a more moist version.
Or I'll try another recipe.
My friend is visiting and I know she'll baulk at the crumbly buns, so I'm going to make the ground almond ones but substitute a fair bit of ground almonds with flax.
I don't take copper. I recently found out my zinc levels were extremely low and was told this could be down to a copper imbalance, or taking copper supplements - which I wasn't. I have Hashi's and was told on here the low zinc was down to that. Zinc and copper work together, so my copper was out of whack purely because my zinc was so low.
Basically, the NHS messed up 2 blood tests due to not using a new cap colour protocol, so my zinc levels weren't tested as requested. But my copper was and is now low. This suggest my zinc has gone up.
Are you consuming the chicken liver and psyllium at the same meal?
You could alternate the liver with lamb chops. Then you'd be getting some
zinc.
B12: you don't need a supplement if you are eating chicken livers.
I doubt the amount of retinol in chicken liver will put you in overdose.
There is about 3,200 micrograms of retinol in 100 grams.
Supposedly we need 3,000 per day. Some of that we can make from
beta carotene. So it would be quite the challenge to overdose on
retinol from chicken liver.
100 grams of chicken liver contain 11.6 mg of iron. That's nothing.
Twice that is still not much. You maximally absorb only a percentage of
it and if you are eating psyllium with the liver, then it's even less.
'Heme iron is easiest for your body to absorb and is 14–18% bioavailable in mixed diets. Nonheme iron, the iron source in vegetarian diets, has a bioavailability of 5–12% '
'Between 19 and 50 years of age, women need 18 mg of iron per day. Female athletes have higher needs to account for the amount of iron lost to sweating.'
Iron is only absorbed over a 4 inch length of the lower duodenum and
upper jejunum. Because it is a highly toxic metal, the body limits
where it can be absorbed. It is also stored in cells along that part of the
digestive tract and released on an as needed basis. This is why it can
take so long for normal people to raise their iron level.
Clams are also an excellent source of iron. They are sold cooked and frozen,
TBH, as I was researching this subject over the last few days, I realised that I no longer eat red meat. I was vegan for a few months this time last year, which would have made things worse. Then I was told on here about ferritin levels, had them checked, and realised they were very low.
Funnily enough, I have just ordered some lamb chops from Ocado. I used to eat them, but then we got two sheep as pets and I couldn't face eating lamb any more. It's not going to be easy eating lamb, I must say. I very rarely eat beef for ethical reasons.
I wasn't eating psyllium at or near the chicken liver meal. Maybe 3-4 hours later. I do eat a massive amount of plant fibre, though.
Having looked objectively at my meal plans, I will now have my coffee later in the day, as I know now that polyphenols can reduce iron uptake by very large amounts. I'll will extend the time between my smoothie and my chicken livers 'brunch'. I will also now take vitamin C with the chicken livers, and I've just bought an iron supplement that is meant to be highly bioavailable, and I'll take that well away from high polyphenol meals. I don't eat dairy, either, so no massively calcium rich meals to interfere with absorption.
I really can't pinpoint why my ferritin levels have gone down, but I'm clearly doing something different - I just don't know what.
Which iron supplement do you have? I'm going to back to Ferrous Fumarate from the GP. Cant stand the stuff but my other better supplements aren't potent enough.
84 tablets is enough for 28 days if someone takes the maximum dose of one tablet, three times a day. Obviously people can take one or two per day if they want.
Personally, I take one tablet, four or five times a week. My ferritin is fairly close to optimal. (My serum iron is always too low to be optimal, and I've given up on it now - I just worry about my ferritin and leave it at that.)
Thanks for your input. Yes that's the one I've had in the past and today I enquired at Boots and they told me they can sell it to me. I'm being a bit tight because I don't have a job and I know the GP can prescribe it free of charge. Hopefully I'll have it in the next few days but if she doesn't I'll just purchase it for about £6 something.
Thanks for that, looks like a decent amount of iron too. I always avoid Mag Stearate but not sure if they have changed the formulation since you started it but it does contain Mag Stearate in the photo of the ingredients? Oops!
That said, you may have a lot more choices than me. My B12 is very high, so I can't have the supplements with B vitamins added. Those who can use the complexes have a lot more choice than I do.
That looks decent, its Pure Encapsulations after all. I'm also taking Blood Builder which was recommended by many in the Hashimotos 411 Facebook group. I managed to get hold of some Ferrous Fumarate yesterday too which should help.
I also had some chicken liver today. Far better tasting than lamb's liver. Thanks again!
You're lucky you have a knowledgeable GP. Mine openly admitted she has no idea about the thyroid. She does listen to me usually.
BTW my B12 and Folate are also elevated, usually at the top of the range without supplementation. I've no idea why and its been like that for years. I do know B12 is produced in the gut. Maybe my gut is overproducing it. Having said that high serum levels dont necessarily mean you are absorbing it.
I've spent the last couple of days breaking down what I eat, when, and with what. I'm sure my drop in ferritin is due to panicking about too much vitamin A and therefore I reduced the chicken livers a bit with a steadily increasing amount of turmeric added to it (I love turmeric and get through ridiculous amounts).
So, massively reduced the turmeric; added a vitamin C capsule made from the powdered acerola I mentioned before with the meal, started taking Ox Bile to aid digestion, and I will take the iron supplements every other day.
I'm also postponing my coffee until mid afternoon, waiting a full hour between my smoothie (polyphenols) and chicken livers, and not eating oxalates within 2-3 hours of the chicken liver meal.
Fingers crossed that will do the trick and I can get my numbers up to 100.
I'm making myself a chart at the moment so I can remember all this. It's all very confusing, as I also have supplements I take for Hashi's, and I'm about to start remineralising my bones (have osteoporosis from steroids), so I have a ridiculous amount of supplements and foods to take that support each other or can't be taken anywhere near each other!
Sounds very precise and quite interesting. I do hope you see some progress. I've had chicken liver in the last few days and I've really enjoyed it. Lamb's liver completely put me off the stuff. I need to get some more today.
Why not add turmeric to other foods rather than the chicken liver if you're that concerned about it removing iron?
I can't tolerate much caffeine any more. I totally avoid coffee and even tea. I'll occasionally have some decaf tea with coconut milk. However I only crave that when I'm tired and unfortunately I am experiencing a lot of fatigue these days.
How are you going to remineralise your bones? Vit D3 and K2? A nutritionist in Whole Foods told me about Boron the other day. Sorry to hear about your bone issues.
Things have become so complicated now, as I'm fighting more than one auto-immune disease, and also the osteoporosis, that I've had to map out a treatment plan to stick to. The thing with the turmeric really threw me, so I had to research everything I eat for the right combos.
Anyway, I still have a little turmeric with the chicken livers as it's so nice - and I was getting better with a little turmeric, until I began to go nuts with it (I think it may be addictive, lol) - and I do have it in other things, as it's such a powerful anti-inflammatory, especially for the gut, and I have bowel disease.
I gave up caffeinated coffee last summer, but hadn't realised the polyphenols were such an issue. I do miss my coffee after my breakfast, but now I have it in the afternoon with my brownie and some calcium to block the oxalates in the brownie (made with ground almonds - but I'm looking into ways to swap that with coconut flour). I'll just have to get used to it.
Luckily, I tried out a bread recipe yesterday that uses coconut flout, flax, and chia and it was lovely. Much tastier than the one with eggs and ground almonds that I using - and no oxalates. Yey! So that's one good thing.
As for the bone remineralisation, it's mainly vitamin K - full spectrum, not just MK7. I'm over the top level for D3, so I'm just taking very small amounts as it gradually drops. Just small amounts of calcium, which is handy, as it block oxalates. I eat plant-based calcium, no dairy.
I have adequate amounts of animal protein, and am trying to keep my mineral levels balanced.
Basically, I've been following the recommendations in: Lies My Doctor Told me: Osteoporosis by Harmony Clearwater Grace. She didn't mention boron, off the top of my head, but I'm going to reread it just in case.
I also take cannabis oil - the full spectrum stuff - as it is proven to stimulate osteoblasts. This is a pleasant side effect, as I started taking it to treat bowel disease long before I knew I had osteoporosis and Hashi's.
On the subject of Hashi's, I ran out of oil (it's VERY hard to get) a while back and had already reduced my dose while I tried to source some more. I had thought it did nothing for Hashi's... however, I've noticed my fibro symptoms have been a LOT worse since I decreased my dose and then ran out. I'm on painkillers most days.
Could be a coincidence, but I'll know more when I'm back on it.
That's really good info. I noticed he mentions turmeric gets rid of excess iron... and I put loads of turmeric in with my chicken liver meal. Damn! It makes them taste lovely. Is there anything nice we can eat?
You post away. It's a confusing issue so the more info the better.
I don't as a matter of course, but I was thinking of doing a liver cleanse in the near future. Maybe I'll wait a bit.
One thing I do recall when my ferritin levels went up quickly was I was on a digestive system reset at the time. I was taking supplement that increased stomach acid and they finished about the end of November.
My research has suggested that lower levels of stomach acid impeded iron absorption, and this would fit in with my levels dropping slightly after the reset was over. I also ordered something called Ox Bile, which is recommended for iron absorption and getting rid of some oxalates from the diet (I have way too many and am trying to cut down, but they're everywhere!). I'm also switching from lots of ground almonds to coconut flour where possible, as I think this has an adverse affect on me.
Were you taking Betaine with Pepsin? I have that not sure if its helping me. I also tried Guttae Pepsini again no idea if it helped me. I worked up to 10 drops and nothing.
I have taken betaine with pepsin before and found it quite good, but that was for something else. The Ox Bile is to extract the most out of the liver and also to help me dump oxalates - they're bad for Hashi's.
I use ground almonds and almond flour in a lot of my baking, as I'm LCHF (can't be doing with keto - too much work and I have enough on my plate already... no pun intended).
I'm about to switch to coconut flour to make my bread and brownies, instead. Too many oxalates in almonds - although soaking them does remove a lot. However, I've no idea if the ground almonds I buy are presoaked, and I doubt you can soak ground almonds without ending up with mush, so i'll try and ditch them. One day I'll get organised and make my own ground almonds that I've soaked. That's one way around it.
Yeah, they do constipate a bit - especially as I put a lot of psyllium husks in my bread. But if I drink lots of water I'm usually ok.
I had no idea the NHS would test for Zinc, what did you ask them to convince them to test for it? I get Ferritin, B12, Folate, Vitamin D and a Full Blood Count and consider myself lucky haha.
I just said what I wanted. I've asked for a few things and turned out I was right in that they were too low or high. Hard to argue with someone who is consistently right. It helps that I now have a GP with Hashi's.
My iron was low and I decided that life’s too short and paid for an iron infusion. Very expensive but took about five minutes and now my iron is like over 200 lol. At least that’s one vitamin ticked off the list. I went to the iron clinic in London.
Good you went for the iron infusion and it helped you. My problem is that I don't retain iron. I have extremely heavy periods each month which I cannot control no matter what I do.
I had an iron infusion in late 2016 where my Ferritin went up to about 150 at the most I think, but a year later I was back to square one. I was lucky to have medical insurance then as the cost was £900! It took a good few hours as there was a doctor on site too.
Just to let you know, that a Ferritin of 200 is not good for you. Iron is a goldilocks mineral you don't want too much and you definitely don't want too little. Excess iron can cause a lot of oxidative stress. Just so you're aware.
Oh I see. What a nitemare for you. My mum says she used to suffer with really heavy periods too. She has always been anaemic.
There’s a clinic in London, Harley Street called the Iron Clinic. I got a train up and had it done. My iron went from 25 to 331! But as we know it’s from an infusion rather that down to a health reason the high is ok. It’s come down quite a lot since I had it done.
Part of me was hoping that perhaps it would cure me but it didn’t lol. But I was advised to get everything optimal and knew it would take months with liver etc
Yep I've always had this issue, right from my teens. I think being anaemic makes the thyroid worse which makes heavy periods worse. It's a vicious circle and makes life very difficult at times. Sorry your mum had to go through this too.
I do recall seeing ads for the Iron Clinic. Gosh 331 is very high. I had mine done through another endo in the area. Was it really 5 minutes? How much did it cost you? I remember I felt very warm afterwards and almost feverish for the next day or two. Other than that I can't say I experienced a massive change but looking at how I am now it must helped. My hair is falling out a lot too and in the afternoons I just want to crawl into bed.
It’s a half life isn’t it, feeling like this. I have had IV nutrition so it was much like that. Canula in the vein and then it took about ten minutes for the pouch of iron to empty. It was £770. Plus the train ticket lol. I stuck it on the credit card. I have no money. Lol. They said some people feel a bit flu-y afterwards and within a day or two I came down with a cold but it was fine. When people have reactions it’s not to the iron per se but to the thingy going in the vein, but I’ve had that before and I felt in safe hands. I can understand how it might be scary but I was just so desperate and hopeful it would benefit my health that I was really happy to get it done
I guess it would have been suggested but could you go on the pill or something? I’m gay so I don’t know too much about all that stuff haha but I think you have fewer periods, or none?
Yep that's one way to describe it, I just drag myself everywhere these days. It definitely felt like I was getting a cold/flu afterwards. I spent a few days in bed.
I've been offered the pill so many times. At one point years ago I brought it home and I was ready to take it. Glad I didn't.
Books like The Period Repair Manual by Dr Lara Briden, ND and Dr Jolene Brighten's knowledge are eye opening on the damaging effects of the contraceptive pill.
Instinctively I would not want to take any kind of contraception...I’m sure it’s fine for some but I kinda feel like you’re standing in the way of nature and that always leads to trouble. Any most things have side effects and I can do without another layer of weird ontop of the current daily weird. Lol.
After years of being sick, people get bored of hearing about it, so then you have to pretend that you’re ok all the time when you’re not, you feel just as crap as you did five years ago. It’s tough going.
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